hunting in trash

[sube]

No the null is not the key , the null happens in the middle of the nail or other iron regardless if a coin is there or not . I have to ask if you got a build at 12.37 what happened when you turn 90 degrees to the said target . With nails north south hit will always read higher so you got a 12.37 east west and if it was a nail north south should of jumped to 12.45 to 12.48 and gave you a low tone or high tone your thinking dime or quarter but if that curser is bouncing around inside the trace on the screen it's iron .On the east west hit a dime will travel 12.25 to 12,37 east west hit depending on the size of said nail .

If your dimes come in at 12.43 no junk , then a dime with a nail north south hit will read 12.42 to 12.43 with a high tone chirp or good solid high tone with (hardly any movement of the curser ).

So when you turn to north south and it jumps to 12.45 to 12.48 and the curser is stable with high tone dig or any other coin #
Also if that 12.45 to 12.48 is falsing high just look at the (curser it will be moving around kind of a circle in the trace area ).

Going back to the east west hit because your scanning the nail the long way traveling back and forth the length of the nail is why that reading will move from 12.25 to 12.37 curser will have way more movement then north south .

The problem with iron is there is no set size such as coins this will make all targets read different .

Turning 90 degrees to the target is your best clue . sube

 

[mcb613]

Sube, just rewatched the video for the many many times and came up with a lityle jingle. It goes something lime this..." put the dime in take the dime out, put the dime in and shake the coil all about.... do the diggy diggy and you put the coin out". Thats just the first verse. Anyone can add to the song, but Zim not sure about sharing royalties... HA HA, Gotta have some fun!

 

[Painternz]

Where do I find your video please

 

[mcb613]

The first thread.

 

[sube]

https://youtu.be/OToHLys8Okw Well not the best but hey only took a hour to get out :thumb up: it's hard to see the screen when I trying to explain how to tell nails from coins .

But If you get a bastard nail and a good nail and scan them between ferrous coin combine and 4 tone conduct you will see what I'm talking about .

Another thing I failed to mention pinpointing tight signals if you use normal it will downsize to where you want , now pinpoint sizing will down size manually and give more control of the spot you want to be looking at. To get a good look at that exact spot. sube

 

[sube]

I hear what you're saying. I just haven't been able to figure out any logical or "technical" reason that changing the FE line of the combined audio would provide the varying results you encountered.

Just thinking out loud here......and asking all of you other CTX3030 users to feel free and chime in.......the FE/Conductive value of a target doesn't change when you alter your programs. The way we analyze them or interpret them might. But the FE and CO values of the target remain the same. In Bryan's scenario, since the audio response did change, something must have either changed in the manner the target signal was analyzed, or in the manner he was able to hear it.

In Bryan's examples.....when the bottom and top bins of the combined audio tone were separated at ferrous line 24, his detector had a degraded audio response on targets with a TID of 12 - 39. Not a chirp or blip. Nothing but low tones. We know that, with the horizontal line set at 24, a target with a ferrous value of 24 or less should be "sent" to one of the bins above the combined audio horizontal line. And when a target is "sent" above that horizontal combined audio line, the tone you hear will be based on the conductive value. Which conductive tone you hear will depend on how you set the audio tones in each of the conductive bins. For the sake of argument, lets say Bryan had his CTX set up to send a 39 conductive to one of the upper bins on the right hand side. In that regard, unless something interfered with the target analysis or the audio response, that target should have been sent to a bin above the line and to the right side. And, with the minimal amount of discrimination he was using,(just the FE 35 line and a few boxes in the lower right hand corner of the screen) he should have heard the tone associated with that bin. Based on his description, I'd suggest that would be a high tone. For reasons yet unknown, when he changed his combined audio horizontal line to FE 32, he got a strong audio high tone on the targets with a TID of 12-39. That makes sense because when you detect a target with an FE value smaller than where you have the combined audio horizontal line, the target should go to one of the bins above that line.

So why does his audio response "go away" when he uses Combined audio with the horizontal line at 24......but is loud and clear when he moves that horizontal line on Combined audio to 32? Since he was running with minimal discrimination, the CTX3030 should not have discriminated out the target with a TID of 12-39, regardless of whether the combined audio horizontal line was set at 24 or 32. In both situations, the target shouldould have been sent to one of the conductive bins for the audio response associated with that bin. (you will get a tone for that target, as long as the bin don't include rejected target ID #s for the specific target). Since the target FE/CO value did not change, and since the only thing changed was the horizontal line in his Combined audio settings, it seems to me that either the target signal was altered, or the audio response was masked, when he used the 24 line.

Bryan....could you check your two programs to make sure ALL of the other settings are the same, except for the placement of the Combined audio horizontal line? Specifically check for discrimination blocks, Target Separation mode, parameters of each bin and the tones assigned to each bin. I'm wondering if there could be something different between the programs that could be altering the audio response of your target, not necessarily the ability of the CTX to detect the target. Without knowing what appeared on the screen with each program, I hesitate to venture a guess. Another suggestion I would have would be to eliminate ALL of the discrimination and see if you get the same results in both of your programs with all targets accepted. Hang in there, there are folks on this forum who help us figure this out. HH Randy

Randy I know what is happening ,Try this test -0- (- meaning nail 0 meaning coin - meaning nail ) Put the nails and coin on the ground 1/8 inch apart ferrous line set to 32 I prefer 35 but just put it at 32 okay ,Now disc out the nails31 to 35 so we don't hear the nails . You will get a high tone okay,
Now set the ferrous line to 24 you well get a low tone no-dig signal .

The reason being is if you switch to high trash and run the same pattern except your in high trash and in conduct 4 tone now that coin with the nails well id at 27.45 to 29.45 which is the true spot where the coin well read on the screen. You have to have the 31 to 35 line disc out otherwise you well get 3 high tones

If you sweep the nails and coin east to west your id well be in the 27.45 to 29.45 area , if you sweep north and south it well build a trace at 12.39 to 12.41 because it's trying to push it to the 12 line . This is ferrous coin combine

Know in 4 tone conduct east west will try to build at the 27.45 to 29.45 area north south id well lock on in this area with a cursor .

I was using 3 inch nails size matters and well change where the cursor lands .

i:m trying to make a video on this and I'm half done .

I have been running conduct and combine at the same time you can see in my post where I was going back and forth where i said combine does not work as it suppose to but it does you have to disc the nails out other wise you well get low high low where as the nails disc out you well only get the high .

But the ferrous line has to be set below the 29 line otherwise you well get low low low because that coin comes in at 27.45 to 29.45 which is it's true id mixed with nails .

Now a nickel will up average with the iron it well read 27.30 to 29.35 in high trash 4 tone conduct same as ferrous coin combine but when swept north south ferrous coin combine well try to build a curser on the 12 line or above where as high trash 4 tone conduct will build it at 27.30 to 29.40 .

Randy the fe and co # change when the target is mixed with iron because there so close together it is looking at them as one. As far as the target being degraded it really is not because a coin with nails is giving you it's true fe and co #s sube I have a theory on how minelab set up the fe co# s you see in the stock pattern where the fe line is set to I think 20 or 21 this is where all targets with iron come in at ( that minelab was sure there was a coin with iron or other good non ferrous item ) Put it this way that 21. 45 was going to 90 percent coin or other good object another words a no brain er . That was given a high tone .

Now compare it to a 29.45 a lot harder to decipher so minelab wants to make all targets go low at 22.45 to 35 .45 and all targets go high at (21.45 to 12.45 go high these are no brain er iron coin or other good target combos okay)

As you notice if minelab was to set there factory program fe line to 35 and have everything go high with iron people would be going crazy .

Now it's great to be able to adjust your fe line to 35 but your going to get more highs and more falsing with nails this is where skill comes in .

But with that fe line set at 21 your not going to hear a high tone for a 22.45 to 35 .45 when a coin is tight with iron where that coin signal is mixed with iron and say it's true reading on the fe and conductive side is
27.45

Now nails are not the same you have friendly nails these nails will disc out no problem east west and north south . then you have what I call bastard nails that will disc out east and west but high tone north and south.

A nail laying east west is easy to disc out but when north south some nails you can't disc out ( bastard nail ) But by knowing what to look for switching from ferrous coin combine to 4 tone conduct you will be able to disc these out by audio and what the cursor is doing on the screen.( most of them )

My video will show this also disc out the last 3 lines on the right side will cure some bastard nails from 12.48 12.49 and 12.50 from the 12 line down to the 35 line. People will ask why disc these out (i would say what have you found here)

But since we can go below the 21 line we can analize and see if we can make a coin stand out at 29.45 . I like that because there are more targets here than clean hit's left .

I'm trying to get this video out so give me some time sube

 

[sube]

https://youtu.be/bkSWa2FNQU4 Couple correction from the video I said 16 fo fe line in high trash it's at 20 also on the first dime nail combo I said high trash was falsing it's not there's a high and low in there.

I have all my modes set the same except pattern 2 in ferrous coin combine is open my user key for high trash combine pattern 2 the fe line is set to 20.

Sill can check targets in high trash combine pattern 1

The fe line got me testing again tried ferrous coin combine with fe line at 13 did not matter still high toned on falses.

Now this fe line of 20 can be added to low trash high trash and ground coin to check falsing in ferrous coin all work the same. all modes are combine

One other thing with the block in the corner I think the half being throw en up on the 12 line is why it did not show and the low conductors were a grunt that's why they didn't show another words they went to the 35 line ?

The 2 nail thing also works with one nail sube

 

[sube]

https://youtu.be/p-IZe2OImwE This video shows a low tone with a nail and how to pinpoint .

 

[sube]

https://youtu.be/p-eMkyblvG0 I purposely left this out of the last video to see if anyone would hear the high when in open screen no one said anything . It's hard to hear but if you know what to listen for you can hear it .

Now I know from testing all 32 to 35 go low ferrous #s all 48 to 50 conductive #s go low , Can you get a coin at 32.44 to 33.47 yes but it well go low this is where the iron has killed the signal also many nails read here so your going to dig nails . On a hit like this I only cross check the target to see if it goe's high.

Now all targets 31 to 1 ferrous #s will go high if not disc out all conductive # from 47 to 1 can go high if not disc out only targets with 32 to 35 ferrous # in front of these will go low .

So I will ask what will you get by being in open screen as compared to adding the disc your not going to get a high from 32 to 35 conductive #s all go low disc or no disc .

In these test coil has to be on the ground dragging if you don't depth will only be shallow but I had no problem with the 6 or stock at 8 inches in my dirt .

I have another follow up video on this to show you more . sube

 

[sube]

https://youtu.be/L-O61UbDKMw This is how far I have got using target trace , I use this when checking targets but can be used to hunt in the null where no other detector can hunt .

I have seen the mx sport video looks good but it's doing what most detectors can do when the coin is not total mask look at the short nails he uses they do not extend pass the quarter when they do you get no audio a null .

I have a set of rules I follow hunting in the null .

#1 cross that target first hear anything if it's a coin and laying with a nail or other iron and it high tones go by tones .

#2 Check that bottom curser is it coming out and is not hard in the corner , All signals that have a conduct reading of 48 to 50 are iron falses all ferrous readings of 32 to 35 are going to low tone . When that signals come of that 35 line and go higher 34 to 32 are a clue you have something with that iron also all signals that read 46 to 40 and so on conduct #s are also a clue you have a coin with the iron or any higher conductive target . Remember all targets 32 to 35 will low tone .

#3 To get a curser to display you have to sweep the whole target from left to right if you only sweep the coin part the curser will not appear as often .

#4 Now pinpoint sizing also builds better sweeping the full length of the target and is harder and inconsistent when just on the coin .

You can use this to hunt in the null but most have patients or to check targets that are high toning and low toning at the same time .

I like trash finders video he knows there something there but the hardest part of all of this is understanding what the iron is doing . There are coins so well mask that the ctx will not see them either .

I urge you to get a sand box and practice you will see how far you can push this it is amazing how much iron you can have with a coin and still get it ,But it will be no audio . sube

 

[sube]

https://youtu.be/sfLYK56epLE This well show what happens when the nail or ground takes over the conductive response .

Water hunters can benefit from this to same as land hunters .

If you watch my other videos you can see where the iron is covering the trace area where the coin is coming in the higher conductors

Now I have added 13.47 down to 35.47 to get rid of high toning on my second screen .

Settings ferrous coin combine
auto +3
gain 30
fast on
sound normal
trace enabled in pinpoint sizing and target trace hunting mode
Fe line 34

second pattern the same except 32 to 35 line disc out and 13.47 to 13.50 down to 35.47 to 35.50 right side this is where your high tone falses happen they also happen from 12.37 to 12.46 down to 35.37 to35.46 we can't get rid of these but we did get rid of half the noise .sube

 

[sube]

https://youtu.be/eJZTaam2YZ8 This is a video on audio falsing .

It will show how to tell if it's a good target or iron target.

 

[PhilNDirt]

Outstanding with both the video and technical explanations. Thanks to both of you !

Philip
SW Virginia

 

[mcb613]

Hey Sube, havent been following much these days, bit wanted to ask your current position on the Target Trace line leadering off at say 11 oclock , from the iron area.
Last couple reads, seems like you have gotten away from that theory???
I employed that a few times to nonprevail, but just checking with you on it.
Thanks,
Mike

 

[sube]

Hey Sube, havent been following much these days, bit wanted to ask your current position on the Target Trace line leadering off at say 11 o'clock , from the iron area.
Last couple reads, seems like you have gotten away from that theory???
I employed that a few times to nonprevail, but just checking with you on it.
Thanks,
Mike

No as to theory I showed you what the machine can do that trace going to the 11 o'clock is most likely using high trash low thrash and ground coin not so much in ferrous coin it tends to leave it on the 12 line. that is why I chose to run ferrous coin .
Now I have learned some other things about falsing since these videos which may help in determining a nail from coin in my video on falsing when you get a thrown false the #s are 12.37 to 12.41 or there about's now as you go to pinpoint and get draw en to the real target your #s well shift to 12.46 to 12.50 now the nail has show en two sets of #s where a coins #s would be much more stable and not deviate so much just another way of verifying it's a coin or a nail .



I nave been working on my next video showing what a silent hit looks like in the field where target trace is your only clue and no audio works been a bear but hope to get done soon .sube

 

[mcb613]

So , is ground coun and 11 o'clock target trace still valid? Or is more evolution making invalid?
Appreciate the help. Going to a 1700s church today that is real trashy with iron.
Thx

 

[sube]

https://youtu.be/sy6EFkNjfZg I have been working on this for a while went on 3 hunts with good results 8 coins and 12 junk non-ferrous objects no iron dug yet. This works because of the Fe line and combine now I wonder if other machines will do this those machines with a tone break ?.

You can have your Fe line set anywhere as long as you can hear the nails they can't be disc out . But as I showed targets with audio well not give you a high tone if Fe line is set to low .Big iron will mask the silent hit and only give you a iron grunt it won't go silent because the ferrous item is stronger than the return of the non-ferrous target when there even or close to even the machine goes silent .

I had my sensitivity set on 4 that's why trace would not build on all targets it was set on 4 because I was doing other things and forgot to change it . Now you can id non-ferrous targets at disc depth and maybe deeper .

The way to run it in a pile of nails is to go to pinpoint sizing with target trace locate target then sweep with disc mode in several directions and see if it goes silent if it grunts both ways leave it if it goes silent or goes more quite than in pinpoint mode check it out . This also works with targets that have bad audio iron grunt with coin signal see if you can sweep it different ways to make it go silent at least you know it's non-ferrous instead of digging iron . But if you only get audio then that's how to check the target .

You can use this to hunt deep by digging by your depth meter but to get a true depth on the nail you must sweep the long way if you sweep the short way you will be 2 inches deeper than actual more to come . sube

 

[mcb613]

Sube, a couple things... 1st, you should cap that drain riser pipe. If the trap is dry, which it probably is, you will be getting sewer gas in the house. This stuff is known to mark people crazy.... kidding, but should cap till trap goes in someday.

Second, I know you spend alot of time on the masking stuff. In a sentense or two, can you summarize? I get lost in multiple paragraphs.

Thx,
Mike

 

[sube]

Sube, a couple things... 1st, you should cap that drain riser pipe. If the trap is dry, which it probably is, you will be getting sewer gas in the house. This stuff is known to mark people crazy.... kidding, but should cap till trap goes in someday.

Second, I know you spend alot of time on the masking stuff. In a sentense or two, can you summarize? I get lost in multiple paragraphs.

Thx,
Mike

the drains not hooked to the sewer it's has to have a lift when I remodel the basement lol .I think just watching the video should explain it .sube

 

[LTimedigger]

Hey Sube, its been a good while since I've read one of your posts, but I've always enjoyed this one. Even though I love target trace, I've been using my deus more in the really trashy areas because I really struggle more with "locking on a tone" with the CTX. in these areas. Do you recommend with the CTX downplaying tones and looking more at studying what the VDI and target trace is telling me? Also I almost never use anything but ferrous coin, but may I ask if you use a custom program for the trashy areas? I'm inclined to use a custom beach program designed to target both ring and coins.