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12x10 SEF Coil Field Tests & Trials. Is She A Keeper?
- Thread starter Critterhunter
- Start date
Critterhunter
New member
A few blurbs from elsewhere. Here's a remark by somebody that seems to jive with my theory on the 12x10 seeing less ground matrix than conventional round 10" or 12" DD coils...
"I have the SR 12 and my friend has the Sef 10X12. He did much better than I did in Virginia where the soil was very hot."
He also remarked that both coils seemed well matched in less mineralized ground. The rest of this is just a re-post from me...
The SEF coils mount dead center. Much better balance than say the 10" coil that has the shaft mount more towards the back. It makes them less nose heavy, and balance can be just as important as weight on a machine.
My theory is that the 12x10 will see less ground than a 12" or probably even a 10" coil. The left/right DD detection field on this coil seems very tight. The 15x12 was an improvement over the stock 10" coil in that respect, but you can REALLY feel this razor sharp edge on the 12x10. It makes my GT react faster, separate easier, and almost feels like somebody turned up the clock speed of the detector. If I didn't know otherwise I would have bet money on that had you handed me a mystery Sovereign with this coil on it.
Anyway, since the left/right field this thing generates seems much tighter with less "slop" off to the sides my theory is it's stewing and soaking in less ground matrix. Results are higher sensitivity and probably better depth with less target degradation. Although these FBS and BBS machines are light years head of the competition in terms of ignoring ground minerals, they are still subject to bad effects from them when the minerals get real bad. Thus my unproven as of yet theory (just got my 12x10) is that you'll get deeper and see targets that aren't washed in as much ground matrix, meaning deeper/cleaner target IDs than say a 10" or a 12" conventional DD round coil. That's where you'd probably see the 12x10 take the lead in moderate to high mineral sites, where as in low mineral locations they probably are very close to each other.
I'd still give the 12x10 more points for better separation, pinpointing, and stability. The audio also seems much crisper and reactive. In fact, on my GT it sounds like the audio pitch has been turned up a fair bit on targets. Never would have guessed changing coils could do that to the audio. I suspect the tighter left/right field makes some how for higher pitched responses over targets. Now my silver hits sound as high as my old QXT Pro. Good, I've trained my ear more for that. Not that the stock coil or 15x12 doesn't give the kinds of tones I like, it's just that the 12x10 makes them a little higher where I'm used to it from prior machines.
I'll say this...Although the 15x12 was an improvement in all respects over the already great stock 10" Tornado (A much better coil than the 10" coils I had on my Explorers), it did not go as deep on land due to my high minerals. Sure, it would often run at higher sensitivity settings and be stable, but in my soil max stable sensitivity doesn't equal best depth. Just like on my Explorers, I have to bury a dime and calibrate that way. Too high can degrade or even null out targets, even if these machines seem to run fine. Doesn't matter which coil you are using, either. The 15x12 did go much deeper than the stock coil in sand though. Can't figure that out because my beaches are highly mineralized too. Anyway, that's why I traded the 15x12 for the 12x10. My theory is that this coil can push a little deeper than stock, where as a conventional 12" coil or bigger will be seeing too much ground matrix and get even less depth than the stock 10" coil. In fact, some people in high mineral areas get more depth from an 8" coil because of this. Less a problem on BBS and FBS machines but still an issue once you pass certain limits.
Pinpointing on the 15x12 or 12x10 is better than the stock 10" coil. Probably better than any machine I've ever owned. Use the tip or the tail and wiggle away from and towards the target. As soon as you hear it it will be at the base of the "V" the coil forms at the top and bottom edges. Repeat from 90 degrees and it's dead on. So good I hardly use PP mode and just use discriminate to PP targets. Also deadly for picking a coin out of trash where as regular PP mode might sound off to trash or high ground minerals. Many times PP mode can't hear a deep target for me, where as it's easy to hit and PP in discriminate.
I also love using the tip of these SEF coils for investigating multiple targets. Wiggle the tip at the targets to try to splice them apart. These SEF coils seem just as deep or deeper than conventional DD designs from tip to tail, but they also seem to have a hotter concentric center to them about the size of a soup can or so. That's why I don't like using the center to PP, but I don't even use the center on my stock coil. I prefer using the tail on that. Tips for the SEFs on land, but I also use the tails of them in the water. Stick your big toe in the "V" and that's right where you need to scoop. Although these things seem real hot towards the center, they'll still separate targets very well swept over dead center. It just goes from good to amazing when you use the tip or tail of the coil to split targets apart you never would have thought you could do otherwise.
Although the 15x12 would often allow much higher sensitivity settings than the stock coil, when I did my buried dime test more often than not sensitivity would end up much further down the scale, roughly where the buried dime test would have me set the stock 10" coil...About 2PM at most sites, perhaps higher at others. That's even though max stable sensitivity could be say 10PM (it goes counter clockwise on the Sovereign to highest) or even full max manual without falsing. Now, with the 12x10 I'm finding that this coil will also go to max sensitivity without getting unstable, probably even at more sites than the 15x12. But the real interesting thing is that with the buried dime test my sensitivity usually now ends up being much higher than it would be for the other coils. 9 or 10AM I'm finding at most sites so far, a much higher sensitivity for "best/easiest/most stable" ID on the buried dime.
I stick the dime 6 to 9" deep and then check it by wiggling or short sweeping over it. Often too high will cause the ID to wander or be erratic, or even null the target. Too low can also null it or make you work harder to wiggle the target to proper ID. Once you get the dime at fringe depth (for that site) you'll find a very specific setting on the dial will get proper ID with little effort, hold it there easier, and won't jump randomly on you.
"I have the SR 12 and my friend has the Sef 10X12. He did much better than I did in Virginia where the soil was very hot."
He also remarked that both coils seemed well matched in less mineralized ground. The rest of this is just a re-post from me...
The SEF coils mount dead center. Much better balance than say the 10" coil that has the shaft mount more towards the back. It makes them less nose heavy, and balance can be just as important as weight on a machine.
My theory is that the 12x10 will see less ground than a 12" or probably even a 10" coil. The left/right DD detection field on this coil seems very tight. The 15x12 was an improvement over the stock 10" coil in that respect, but you can REALLY feel this razor sharp edge on the 12x10. It makes my GT react faster, separate easier, and almost feels like somebody turned up the clock speed of the detector. If I didn't know otherwise I would have bet money on that had you handed me a mystery Sovereign with this coil on it.
Anyway, since the left/right field this thing generates seems much tighter with less "slop" off to the sides my theory is it's stewing and soaking in less ground matrix. Results are higher sensitivity and probably better depth with less target degradation. Although these FBS and BBS machines are light years head of the competition in terms of ignoring ground minerals, they are still subject to bad effects from them when the minerals get real bad. Thus my unproven as of yet theory (just got my 12x10) is that you'll get deeper and see targets that aren't washed in as much ground matrix, meaning deeper/cleaner target IDs than say a 10" or a 12" conventional DD round coil. That's where you'd probably see the 12x10 take the lead in moderate to high mineral sites, where as in low mineral locations they probably are very close to each other.
I'd still give the 12x10 more points for better separation, pinpointing, and stability. The audio also seems much crisper and reactive. In fact, on my GT it sounds like the audio pitch has been turned up a fair bit on targets. Never would have guessed changing coils could do that to the audio. I suspect the tighter left/right field makes some how for higher pitched responses over targets. Now my silver hits sound as high as my old QXT Pro. Good, I've trained my ear more for that. Not that the stock coil or 15x12 doesn't give the kinds of tones I like, it's just that the 12x10 makes them a little higher where I'm used to it from prior machines.
I'll say this...Although the 15x12 was an improvement in all respects over the already great stock 10" Tornado (A much better coil than the 10" coils I had on my Explorers), it did not go as deep on land due to my high minerals. Sure, it would often run at higher sensitivity settings and be stable, but in my soil max stable sensitivity doesn't equal best depth. Just like on my Explorers, I have to bury a dime and calibrate that way. Too high can degrade or even null out targets, even if these machines seem to run fine. Doesn't matter which coil you are using, either. The 15x12 did go much deeper than the stock coil in sand though. Can't figure that out because my beaches are highly mineralized too. Anyway, that's why I traded the 15x12 for the 12x10. My theory is that this coil can push a little deeper than stock, where as a conventional 12" coil or bigger will be seeing too much ground matrix and get even less depth than the stock 10" coil. In fact, some people in high mineral areas get more depth from an 8" coil because of this. Less a problem on BBS and FBS machines but still an issue once you pass certain limits.
Pinpointing on the 15x12 or 12x10 is better than the stock 10" coil. Probably better than any machine I've ever owned. Use the tip or the tail and wiggle away from and towards the target. As soon as you hear it it will be at the base of the "V" the coil forms at the top and bottom edges. Repeat from 90 degrees and it's dead on. So good I hardly use PP mode and just use discriminate to PP targets. Also deadly for picking a coin out of trash where as regular PP mode might sound off to trash or high ground minerals. Many times PP mode can't hear a deep target for me, where as it's easy to hit and PP in discriminate.
I also love using the tip of these SEF coils for investigating multiple targets. Wiggle the tip at the targets to try to splice them apart. These SEF coils seem just as deep or deeper than conventional DD designs from tip to tail, but they also seem to have a hotter concentric center to them about the size of a soup can or so. That's why I don't like using the center to PP, but I don't even use the center on my stock coil. I prefer using the tail on that. Tips for the SEFs on land, but I also use the tails of them in the water. Stick your big toe in the "V" and that's right where you need to scoop. Although these things seem real hot towards the center, they'll still separate targets very well swept over dead center. It just goes from good to amazing when you use the tip or tail of the coil to split targets apart you never would have thought you could do otherwise.
Although the 15x12 would often allow much higher sensitivity settings than the stock coil, when I did my buried dime test more often than not sensitivity would end up much further down the scale, roughly where the buried dime test would have me set the stock 10" coil...About 2PM at most sites, perhaps higher at others. That's even though max stable sensitivity could be say 10PM (it goes counter clockwise on the Sovereign to highest) or even full max manual without falsing. Now, with the 12x10 I'm finding that this coil will also go to max sensitivity without getting unstable, probably even at more sites than the 15x12. But the real interesting thing is that with the buried dime test my sensitivity usually now ends up being much higher than it would be for the other coils. 9 or 10AM I'm finding at most sites so far, a much higher sensitivity for "best/easiest/most stable" ID on the buried dime.
I stick the dime 6 to 9" deep and then check it by wiggling or short sweeping over it. Often too high will cause the ID to wander or be erratic, or even null the target. Too low can also null it or make you work harder to wiggle the target to proper ID. Once you get the dime at fringe depth (for that site) you'll find a very specific setting on the dial will get proper ID with little effort, hold it there easier, and won't jump randomly on you.
Critterhunter
New member
I managed to get out for a short hour and a half or so hunt this evening. I headed out to a mowed grass lot that I've worked over extensively through the years. I ended up meeting two old friends I haven't seen in years. Not people, but rather buttons. This spot used to produce two types of buttons in years past. One of these buttons is small, like about the size of a dime, and is shaped more or less like a four leaf clover. I'm not sure if it's from clothes, as I seem to remember some mention about a food item on it. I think maybe it used to be something you pulled on an old can of ham or something like that but I'm not sure. Been a while since I've read the writing on some of these that came out in better condition. The other button is about the size of a quarter and has an eagle on it. I've probably dug 7 or 8 of these and perhaps 10 or 12 of the smaller one described above.
Like I said, it's been years since I've seen either one of these buttons show up at this spot. They tend to give a good coin signal, or at least a good wheat signal. The clover leaf one showed up at about 7.5" deep. The bigger quarter sized one showed up at perhaps 8 to 8.5" deep. I'm confident it was out of range of all my prior machines for this spot's type of soil. The big one also had a small blob of iron in the hole with it. I really should research this one because I have a feeling it's some form of old military button. Sure looks old. Not sure what kind of metal either one of them is made of. I'll try to post a picture of the big one with the eagle on it on here and in the What Is It forum to see if anybody can ID it.
I'm anxious to get back to this spot. It's one of my favorites that used to produce a lot of silver and other good finds in years gone by. Hunting with the Sovereign and the 12x10 there made it felt like I was hunting it 10 years ago with the potential I felt along with the depth of some of the targets I dug. Oh, also dug two silver plated spoons that were 8 or 9" deep. We've dug solid silver silverware out of this site before but I knew these weren't going to be that. Solid silver will give you a silver coin signal. Plated silver will read penny or even as low as a tab. That's a handy way to tell if you've got a solid silver spoon or something. You would think if they were plated that the detector would still read high as a silver coin but I guess there is less pure silver on the surface and that lowers the conductivity.
Like I said, it's been years since I've seen either one of these buttons show up at this spot. They tend to give a good coin signal, or at least a good wheat signal. The clover leaf one showed up at about 7.5" deep. The bigger quarter sized one showed up at perhaps 8 to 8.5" deep. I'm confident it was out of range of all my prior machines for this spot's type of soil. The big one also had a small blob of iron in the hole with it. I really should research this one because I have a feeling it's some form of old military button. Sure looks old. Not sure what kind of metal either one of them is made of. I'll try to post a picture of the big one with the eagle on it on here and in the What Is It forum to see if anybody can ID it.
I'm anxious to get back to this spot. It's one of my favorites that used to produce a lot of silver and other good finds in years gone by. Hunting with the Sovereign and the 12x10 there made it felt like I was hunting it 10 years ago with the potential I felt along with the depth of some of the targets I dug. Oh, also dug two silver plated spoons that were 8 or 9" deep. We've dug solid silver silverware out of this site before but I knew these weren't going to be that. Solid silver will give you a silver coin signal. Plated silver will read penny or even as low as a tab. That's a handy way to tell if you've got a solid silver spoon or something. You would think if they were plated that the detector would still read high as a silver coin but I guess there is less pure silver on the surface and that lowers the conductivity.
Critterhunter
New member
Thanks, I love details and in depth testing/review of things, so I figured why not do it for others that like that as well.
This is a re-post, but it mostly pertains to the SEF coils and I haven't really covered these tips too well before...
Haven't noticed it being "too hot" at the tips where I need to do that. The center I find too hot though with the seemingly concentric portion, but I don't like PPing using the center on the stock coil either. With the SEF coils I just wiggle it while walking it towards the target until it first starts to sound off. Then I switch 90 degrees and do the same. If PP mode is not picking it up or is sounding off to minerals or nearby trash then I just use discriminate for this.
Another handy method I use is some times discriminate (like PP) will not sound off to the target from one direction. If I can PP it in discriminate one way but don't get a clear defined or sounding off signal from 90 degrees then I'll throw it into PP for that direction to note the spot, then flip back to discriminate and re-check it from 90 degrees. Another handy use for this is let's say there is trash around it that you are picking up if you try to PP in PP mode from one direction. Use discriminate to mark the spot. Now switch 90 degrees and you might find discriminate is having a hard time sounding off or is nulling it out. Flip over to PP for that direction to mark the spot. I always like to then do a third PP on the target by moving back to the original position to double insure my findings. Probably more often than not now I just use discriminate to PP targets, only switching to PP mode when I'm having issues, but often PP mode has it's own issues to deal with. Whichever gives me the same location on the target when checked from two directions.
One thing while on the subject- I'm finding that some very deep coins or ones mixed in iron or other trash often will only sound off from one direction. They might be on edge as well. For that reason I've taken to re-checking any "junk" signal that won't produce a good ID/audio doing the wiggle from at least two other directions as well. Even if it only sounds off one way often you can just tell that the signal is so perfect in that direction that it just has to be a coin. No slight worbly or iffy audio to the target from that direction, while the others might be a complete null or a really bad signal. I'd say when I run acrossed those that about 75% of the time it does indeed turn out to be a coin and not a false iron hit. Just look for those perfectly audio/ID signals even if they are only sounding off one way. This differs greatly from what iron usually does, as well as screw caps or other junk that tries to pretend it's a coin.
If it's deep and with careful investigation doing the wiggle or short sweep doesn't produce any kind of good coin signal, I'll re-check it from at least two other directions. I'm amazed how deep coins will null or not sound well from all but one direction in my tests. Also, more often that not now I'm finding that a slow short sweep (4 to 6" or so) seems to produce the best ID at depth now for me. Often before it was as tight and fast of a wiggle as I could manage. I attribute this to the 12x10 wanting higher sensitivity calibration with my buried dime test for best/easiest/most stable ID. It relates to what others have found about higher sensitivity settings wanting slower sweep speeds. Since it seems most of the time now I'm at least running at 10 or 11 O'Clock or higher (towards full) with this coil, I am finding I need to slow my sweep speed down to see the really deep stuff.
This is a re-post, but it mostly pertains to the SEF coils and I haven't really covered these tips too well before...
Haven't noticed it being "too hot" at the tips where I need to do that. The center I find too hot though with the seemingly concentric portion, but I don't like PPing using the center on the stock coil either. With the SEF coils I just wiggle it while walking it towards the target until it first starts to sound off. Then I switch 90 degrees and do the same. If PP mode is not picking it up or is sounding off to minerals or nearby trash then I just use discriminate for this.
Another handy method I use is some times discriminate (like PP) will not sound off to the target from one direction. If I can PP it in discriminate one way but don't get a clear defined or sounding off signal from 90 degrees then I'll throw it into PP for that direction to note the spot, then flip back to discriminate and re-check it from 90 degrees. Another handy use for this is let's say there is trash around it that you are picking up if you try to PP in PP mode from one direction. Use discriminate to mark the spot. Now switch 90 degrees and you might find discriminate is having a hard time sounding off or is nulling it out. Flip over to PP for that direction to mark the spot. I always like to then do a third PP on the target by moving back to the original position to double insure my findings. Probably more often than not now I just use discriminate to PP targets, only switching to PP mode when I'm having issues, but often PP mode has it's own issues to deal with. Whichever gives me the same location on the target when checked from two directions.
One thing while on the subject- I'm finding that some very deep coins or ones mixed in iron or other trash often will only sound off from one direction. They might be on edge as well. For that reason I've taken to re-checking any "junk" signal that won't produce a good ID/audio doing the wiggle from at least two other directions as well. Even if it only sounds off one way often you can just tell that the signal is so perfect in that direction that it just has to be a coin. No slight worbly or iffy audio to the target from that direction, while the others might be a complete null or a really bad signal. I'd say when I run acrossed those that about 75% of the time it does indeed turn out to be a coin and not a false iron hit. Just look for those perfectly audio/ID signals even if they are only sounding off one way. This differs greatly from what iron usually does, as well as screw caps or other junk that tries to pretend it's a coin.
If it's deep and with careful investigation doing the wiggle or short sweep doesn't produce any kind of good coin signal, I'll re-check it from at least two other directions. I'm amazed how deep coins will null or not sound well from all but one direction in my tests. Also, more often that not now I'm finding that a slow short sweep (4 to 6" or so) seems to produce the best ID at depth now for me. Often before it was as tight and fast of a wiggle as I could manage. I attribute this to the 12x10 wanting higher sensitivity calibration with my buried dime test for best/easiest/most stable ID. It relates to what others have found about higher sensitivity settings wanting slower sweep speeds. Since it seems most of the time now I'm at least running at 10 or 11 O'Clock or higher (towards full) with this coil, I am finding I need to slow my sweep speed down to see the really deep stuff.
Critterhunter
New member
Crazyman, did you get that 12x10 yet? If not, when do you expect it?
Critterhunter
New member
I headed out yesterday for about an hour's hunt. Nothing in the way of great finds as this was the first time I've hunted this site and am not sure if it contains deep coins or not. Anyway, only wanted to say that the 12x10 was once again able to run at full manual sensitivity with no nulling or falsing. At this particular site I found that this was also the best setting for max depth/easy & stable ID. A first I think for my buried calibration method. That bodes well for my theory of this coil seeing less ground minerals and so being able to run at higher sensitivity settings without degrading or nulling target IDs.
When I was about to leave I did get a real deep sounding coin signal. Dug down almost 8" and still no target, yet my Pro Pointer super tuned was telling me that the target was indeed further down in the hole. At 8.5" (measured) I see the edge of what looks like a fat man's silver ring on edge. I was sure of this until I popped it out and it turned out to be a screw cap. Man, it sure looked like a silver ring with engravings on it's side while it was still sitting at the bottom of the hole lodged sideways in the dirt. Had my heart going. Still, I was pretty happy with the 12x10 hitting this deep of a target in mostly dry soil conditions. Some slight moisture, but still not enough to give maximum depth/target signals. Had it been a silver quarter or dime I'm confident I would have hit it. 8.5" may not sound as deep as some reported coin finds on the Sovereign but remember we are talking my soil here where anything past 7.5" with all the other machines I've owned is quite a feat. Thus far my deepest coins on land using any machine have been a V-Nickle and an Indian in two separate holes at about 11" deep using the stock 10" coil. That was when the ground was very wet providing optinum conditions.
Based on my very early impressions of the 12x10 it does seem to be getting wheats deeper than the stock coil in the dry conditions we've had as of late. I'm really anxious to see how deep it goes when the ground is fairly wet. I've got the stock coil on another Whites tall man rod to make switching coils quicker, so I plan to do some side by side comparisons of these two coils on some buried test targets. I plan to do both land and sand tests in various mineral content sites. Will report on that when done.
I've got a picture to show of the recent quarter size button I found the other day with the 12x10 at I think about 8 to 8.5" deep. I have dug about 7 or 8 of these buttons in the past at this site but they haven't been showing up for a while, so I'm confident the 12x10 is getting deeper than my prior machines (Explorers included) at this one particular site. That was the deepest coin size target I've ever dug at this site. With my medium to high mineral content sites (not all of them are this bad) this kind of depth is impressive, surpassing all the prior machines I've ever owned at these specific sites.
If anybody has any idea what this button is from and roughly the age of it please let me know. Sorry about the picture quality. That's about the best I can do with my digital camera, and I hate to keep bugging my friend's daughter to take pictures for me with her better up close camera ability...
When I was about to leave I did get a real deep sounding coin signal. Dug down almost 8" and still no target, yet my Pro Pointer super tuned was telling me that the target was indeed further down in the hole. At 8.5" (measured) I see the edge of what looks like a fat man's silver ring on edge. I was sure of this until I popped it out and it turned out to be a screw cap. Man, it sure looked like a silver ring with engravings on it's side while it was still sitting at the bottom of the hole lodged sideways in the dirt. Had my heart going. Still, I was pretty happy with the 12x10 hitting this deep of a target in mostly dry soil conditions. Some slight moisture, but still not enough to give maximum depth/target signals. Had it been a silver quarter or dime I'm confident I would have hit it. 8.5" may not sound as deep as some reported coin finds on the Sovereign but remember we are talking my soil here where anything past 7.5" with all the other machines I've owned is quite a feat. Thus far my deepest coins on land using any machine have been a V-Nickle and an Indian in two separate holes at about 11" deep using the stock 10" coil. That was when the ground was very wet providing optinum conditions.
Based on my very early impressions of the 12x10 it does seem to be getting wheats deeper than the stock coil in the dry conditions we've had as of late. I'm really anxious to see how deep it goes when the ground is fairly wet. I've got the stock coil on another Whites tall man rod to make switching coils quicker, so I plan to do some side by side comparisons of these two coils on some buried test targets. I plan to do both land and sand tests in various mineral content sites. Will report on that when done.
I've got a picture to show of the recent quarter size button I found the other day with the 12x10 at I think about 8 to 8.5" deep. I have dug about 7 or 8 of these buttons in the past at this site but they haven't been showing up for a while, so I'm confident the 12x10 is getting deeper than my prior machines (Explorers included) at this one particular site. That was the deepest coin size target I've ever dug at this site. With my medium to high mineral content sites (not all of them are this bad) this kind of depth is impressive, surpassing all the prior machines I've ever owned at these specific sites.
If anybody has any idea what this button is from and roughly the age of it please let me know. Sorry about the picture quality. That's about the best I can do with my digital camera, and I hate to keep bugging my friend's daughter to take pictures for me with her better up close camera ability...
Hi guys,
I do a lot of reading, not so much posting. But here are few things I thought I should mention.
1. What iron mask does is process the nonferrous signal first and ferrous signal second when a nonferrous item is next to a ferrous item.
2. I appreciate your novels Critter, they give a very good account of the real world results with the 12x10 coil. But what I would really love to see is a few tests to minimize variables and get some useful comparative analysis out of your coils. Could you please do an air test on a dime with the 10" and the SEF coils keeping everything else the same. Then use your test garden, or burry a dime out in a field at 10" and see which coil will be better at picking it up, at what settings, etc. Try to find a limit on the SEF and the 10" coil for in ground depth, and see which col goes deeper. Now obviously we are talking about disturbing the soil matrix etc... Meaning real life results will not produce the same depth, but it's still a good baseline test to see how the two coils compare. Run them in different ground conditions if you like and see which coil deals better with mineralization. The best test would be to find a fringe signal with either coil and check it with the other, but putting a dime in the ground and comparing both coils is good way to do it to.
I am very surprised that you have not posted any of these basic tests on here. Can you please do that.
Thank you very much for all of your analysis and great detail.
I do a lot of reading, not so much posting. But here are few things I thought I should mention.
1. What iron mask does is process the nonferrous signal first and ferrous signal second when a nonferrous item is next to a ferrous item.
2. I appreciate your novels Critter, they give a very good account of the real world results with the 12x10 coil. But what I would really love to see is a few tests to minimize variables and get some useful comparative analysis out of your coils. Could you please do an air test on a dime with the 10" and the SEF coils keeping everything else the same. Then use your test garden, or burry a dime out in a field at 10" and see which coil will be better at picking it up, at what settings, etc. Try to find a limit on the SEF and the 10" coil for in ground depth, and see which col goes deeper. Now obviously we are talking about disturbing the soil matrix etc... Meaning real life results will not produce the same depth, but it's still a good baseline test to see how the two coils compare. Run them in different ground conditions if you like and see which coil deals better with mineralization. The best test would be to find a fringe signal with either coil and check it with the other, but putting a dime in the ground and comparing both coils is good way to do it to.
I am very surprised that you have not posted any of these basic tests on here. Can you please do that.
Thank you very much for all of your analysis and great detail.
Critterhunter
New member
Your thoughts are exactly mine in what I plan to do with the stock 10" tornado compared to the 12x10. I have the stock coil on an extra Whites Tall Man rod for ease in swapping between them and plan to do all these tests soon. Another useful factor will be also testing coins at fringe depth in various stages of being on edge, as these SEF coils sure do seem to hit coins on end better than any other coil I've ever used. The GT with the stock 10" coil was the best I've used in those terms, but the SEF seems to enhance this ability.
I'll also be doing some mask testing between them and also want to test the depths of both coils against each other in both sand and on land, as well as in low and high mineral land sites. If the stock coil equals it's depth in low minerals my money is on the fact that with any kind of medium to high mineral content the 12x10 will get deeper. I'll also be comparing the highest manual sensitivity settings for both coils at various sites to provide comparison info on that. I can already tell you that the 12x10 is allowing full blast manual at some sites where that was very rare for the stock coil. I can also say that the 12x10 is the most sensitive coil I've ever used on any machine (besides Tesoros) when it comes to tiny targets. The stock coil was good, the 15x12 was better, but I'm amazed at how hard this 12x10 bangs at depth on very tiny bits of aluminum and stuff. I'm going to bury a very thin plain gold ring band and see which gets best depth on that. Betting it's the 12x10. I can also related that one person I talked to who tested it against the S-12 found the 12x10 was more sensitive to small stuff, and that this person found a thin gold chain because of that.
So long as I'm writing I might as well post a quick report on the 12x10 yesterday. I headed out to a beach on the great lakes and unfortunately I wasn't dressed for the very cold air coming right off the lake, so I only hunted for about an hour until I couldn't take the chilly wind anymore. Have to start throwing a jacket in my truck these days as the weather fluctuates a lot around here. Anyway, this sand about 50 feet from the water had a lot of tiny iron bits in it, so I lowered the sensitivity down to about 3:30PM to keep the threshold from nulling out on me as much. I wandered down near the water's edge and found that there wasn't as much iron here and I could go to about 11PM on the dial without nulling, but just the same I returned it to 3:30PM because I was drifting in and out of the iron zones where the nulling was bad. These nulls could have been some form of tiny black sand hot rocks but I didn't dig them up to see what gives.
Back to the point- So with sensitivity at 3:30PM I get a 161 signal from any direction. Easy/good/solid/loud signal. I was in wet sand about two feet from the water's edge (really no wave action that day). Although it was loud I knew by the audio it was down at least 7 or 8" deep, so I took one deep scoop out of the sand. Since the sand was wet there was no caving in or sand drift. The scooped out hole was a nice cookie cutter type deal with very distinct edges/bottom to it. The target was still in the hole, so I pulled out my Pro Pointer to find it without scooping again because I wanted to gage depth precisely. The Pro Pointer sounded off to the target at dead center bottom of the hole but still probably another inch or more further down in this undisturbed sand. Like I said, no caving in or sand drift, and the bottom was completely undisturbed so I knew this wasn't a shallower target that slipped deeper after I scooped. Out pops a round tab with tail intact. I then stuck my Pro Pointer into the hole to exactly measure the target's depth and it was about 9.25" deep.
NOW that's impressive. Wet sand and with the sensitivity riding at a low 3:30PM on the dial. The audio was loud/clear and the ID stable from any direction, and remember I had my volume all the way down too. That bodes well for the depth potential of this coil, though I still haven't put it through any major depth workout at known deep coin sites for the most part yet.
One other thing...I dug a bunch of tiny bits of aluminum. Some about the size of a small earring backing and at good depth. I have no doubt this coil will band on tiny earrings and thin chains very well for those who want that ability.
I'll also be doing some mask testing between them and also want to test the depths of both coils against each other in both sand and on land, as well as in low and high mineral land sites. If the stock coil equals it's depth in low minerals my money is on the fact that with any kind of medium to high mineral content the 12x10 will get deeper. I'll also be comparing the highest manual sensitivity settings for both coils at various sites to provide comparison info on that. I can already tell you that the 12x10 is allowing full blast manual at some sites where that was very rare for the stock coil. I can also say that the 12x10 is the most sensitive coil I've ever used on any machine (besides Tesoros) when it comes to tiny targets. The stock coil was good, the 15x12 was better, but I'm amazed at how hard this 12x10 bangs at depth on very tiny bits of aluminum and stuff. I'm going to bury a very thin plain gold ring band and see which gets best depth on that. Betting it's the 12x10. I can also related that one person I talked to who tested it against the S-12 found the 12x10 was more sensitive to small stuff, and that this person found a thin gold chain because of that.
So long as I'm writing I might as well post a quick report on the 12x10 yesterday. I headed out to a beach on the great lakes and unfortunately I wasn't dressed for the very cold air coming right off the lake, so I only hunted for about an hour until I couldn't take the chilly wind anymore. Have to start throwing a jacket in my truck these days as the weather fluctuates a lot around here. Anyway, this sand about 50 feet from the water had a lot of tiny iron bits in it, so I lowered the sensitivity down to about 3:30PM to keep the threshold from nulling out on me as much. I wandered down near the water's edge and found that there wasn't as much iron here and I could go to about 11PM on the dial without nulling, but just the same I returned it to 3:30PM because I was drifting in and out of the iron zones where the nulling was bad. These nulls could have been some form of tiny black sand hot rocks but I didn't dig them up to see what gives.
Back to the point- So with sensitivity at 3:30PM I get a 161 signal from any direction. Easy/good/solid/loud signal. I was in wet sand about two feet from the water's edge (really no wave action that day). Although it was loud I knew by the audio it was down at least 7 or 8" deep, so I took one deep scoop out of the sand. Since the sand was wet there was no caving in or sand drift. The scooped out hole was a nice cookie cutter type deal with very distinct edges/bottom to it. The target was still in the hole, so I pulled out my Pro Pointer to find it without scooping again because I wanted to gage depth precisely. The Pro Pointer sounded off to the target at dead center bottom of the hole but still probably another inch or more further down in this undisturbed sand. Like I said, no caving in or sand drift, and the bottom was completely undisturbed so I knew this wasn't a shallower target that slipped deeper after I scooped. Out pops a round tab with tail intact. I then stuck my Pro Pointer into the hole to exactly measure the target's depth and it was about 9.25" deep.
NOW that's impressive. Wet sand and with the sensitivity riding at a low 3:30PM on the dial. The audio was loud/clear and the ID stable from any direction, and remember I had my volume all the way down too. That bodes well for the depth potential of this coil, though I still haven't put it through any major depth workout at known deep coin sites for the most part yet.
One other thing...I dug a bunch of tiny bits of aluminum. Some about the size of a small earring backing and at good depth. I have no doubt this coil will band on tiny earrings and thin chains very well for those who want that ability.
Hi Crazyman,
Sounds like you don't agree with that video. Yep, that's where I saw that explanation, seemed like an elegant explanation to me, but not sure I would put lots of money on it being true. But it's as good of an explanation as I have seen anywhere, and it did look like the iron mask worked in that particular situation.
Looking forward to your tests Critter.
Have a good one.
Sounds like you don't agree with that video. Yep, that's where I saw that explanation, seemed like an elegant explanation to me, but not sure I would put lots of money on it being true. But it's as good of an explanation as I have seen anywhere, and it did look like the iron mask worked in that particular situation.
Looking forward to your tests Critter.
Have a good one.
This has already been discussed in a thread below and I invite Des to dispute it if he wants. First off, that is not how iron mask works and it's impossible to see any effect that iron mask has in a air test The biggest problem is that Des knows this and he knows that the GT will hit that coin whether iron mask is on or off so he cheats to make the iron mask work the way he wants. He knows the weakness of the GT so he changes the angle of the sweep to make the coin disappear. With iron mask on he sweeps straight over the targets but when he switches to iron mask off he changes the angle of the sweep. Using the same straight sweep the GT would have hit the coin whether iron mask was on or off and the coin would have been lost whether iron mask was on or off also when sweeping across the targets at a different angle. Des knew this because he had to stop the camera between sweeps to get the angle just right to loose the coin. He changed the conditions of the test between iron mask on and off to get the results he wanted. There are other tricks that can be done with nails and coins with the Sovereign to fake the iron mask magic hype even better than his.
Critterhunter
New member
Well, there I'd have to agree. Haven't watched the video but in my tests of coins masked with iron going acrossed the nail at a 90 degree angle will deflect the signal before it can reach the coin in many situations. Placing the coil so that the DD detection line is parallel with the nail will give easier coin IDs. That's as far as I'll agree with you, though, as you know. Iron Mask ON is noisier for a reason. It's trying to let through any signals that might not be iron. Iron Mask OFF is being more picky about what he wants to sound off to. In that way Iron Mask ON will sound off to non-ferrous targets more than Off will. Look at it this way, you have always said that you would love to see the ability to alter the discrimination of iron on the Sovereign. Well, you've got that! With Iron Mask ON it's going to "lower" it's standards in terms of what it wants to see in signal types and sound off to. If Iron Mask ON didn't have any more ability to find coins in iron then there wouldn't be much point in offering that feature, would there? I mean, why provide a switch that only makes the machine noisier when in iron, hot rocks, or heavy minerals? WHY? What would be the point then? There has to be an upside to being able to turn Iron Mask ON, and the only upside is just that- ability to find non-ferrous targets in iron.
Good God, can you imagine the debates we'd be having if the Sovereign had all those little tweaks and changes possible on the Explorer or Etrac? Forget that, what if it was loaded with the endless and pointless controls of the DFX or V3?
I shutter to think how we'd be all bumping heads on just one of those added controls, and I could see it taking a good five years before we finish advocating all the points for various sides of the debate. Here's the sad thing (about those other machines)....Even after we've worked out all the little tweaks and such it still isn't going to get as deep as a Sovereign, and everything changes from site to site...spawning new debate on which controls to use now 
Good God, can you imagine the debates we'd be having if the Sovereign had all those little tweaks and changes possible on the Explorer or Etrac? Forget that, what if it was loaded with the endless and pointless controls of the DFX or V3?
I shutter to think how we'd be all bumping heads on just one of those added controls, and I could see it taking a good five years before we finish advocating all the points for various sides of the debate. Here's the sad thing (about those other machines)....Even after we've worked out all the little tweaks and such it still isn't going to get as deep as a Sovereign, and everything changes from site to site...spawning new debate on which controls to use now Watched that video again, yep, you are right. What a sneaky guy he is, he clearly does change the angle of the sweep, once you pointed it out it was obvious, and the way the video is edited also proves that point. I want to run a few of my own tests when i get a chance.
Thanks
Thanks
If you want to debate at least get your facts right. I didn't say iron mask doesn't work to some extent, I said I question the effectiveness of the iron mask switch and it's benefits between on and off because even with it on it is still basically similar to any other detector with a limited range of iron discrimination in how it sees coins in iron. Nothing magical about it. If it was they wouldn't have to cheat in their video. Since Minelab only describes what it is supposed to do but doesn't actually describe how it does it we are left to come to our own conclusion through actual use and how effective it is and when to use it or not use it. Since I don't know for sure I can only add 2+2 and try to come up with 4. According to Minelab themselves when hunting in iron the BBS technology in the way it analyzes targets in mineralization is what enables it to separate ferrous from non ferrous but there still "might" be "certain" situations where a coin is lost with iron mask off because of the bias to iron in the normal discrimination mode. The iron mask mode is separate from the discrimination mode and doesn't work quite like normal discrimination.It acts more like filter. When iron mask is on it makes it more sensitive to iron but not just iron. It also makes it more sensitive to mineralization, hot rocks and "EMI". When you turn it off it is less sensitive to all the above and gives smoother operation. What type of function could possibly affect the "noise" from not only iron but mineralization and "EMI"? Possibly some type of filter? If you turn on the detector in your house with iron mask on and raise the sensitivity to the point where starts to react to the electrical interference and then turn iron mask off it will go quiet. What other switch on the detector has a similar reaction to EMI? Is the noise cancel feature a filter or a frequency shift? I keep coming up with 4. If you have another theory put it forward.
Critterhunter
New member
Crazyman, I'll get to responding to you later. I have a first field comparison test to report on the stock 10" Tornada versus the 12x10...
I decided to take an hour and to my first head to head test of these two coils. I love reading this sort of stuff as much as I do doing it, so I hope there are at least some others out there who look will enjoy this short test done thus far. I plan to compare the two head to head at other land sites, varying from low to high minerals, as well as in sand in the near future. I also plan to do some testing of coins on edge because I know these SEF's sure do feel like they are finding me those types of coins more. Some iron/coin mask testing in the ground will also be done and reported on.
Anyway, I headed to a local park up the street since it would have a nice picnic table for me to swap coils on without having to do that on the ground or at my vehicle. I started off with the 12x10 and fired it up to find a clean spot in the ground as well as to judge where sensitivity would remain stable. This soil has high mineralization with a heavy limestone clay content, so at least that would be a good initial test of these two coils compared to each other in high mineral soil. I plan to test them again later in some low mineral rich black soil type of matrix.
Due to nearby RF noise about 75 yards away (heavy power lines) and the high mineral content, the 12x10 was remaining stable at about noon to 1PM. However, as I've beat to death over and over, this does not automatically translate into best ID/audio at depth on Sovereigns and Explorers from my experience, at least *in my soil* which tends to be medium to heavy in mineral matrix at roughly 70% of my sites. For that reason once I got a silver dime in the ground I would judge best coil response by whichever place on the sensitivity dial provided that, as I often find something much lower than stable is where best ID/audio at depth is derived. This has been true for both the stock coil and the 15x12, but the 12x10 seems to be the exception to this rule. While it's best ID/audio sweet spot on a buried dime is still a bit below max stable sensitivity, it is much closer to max stable sensitivity than the other two coils. This jives with my theory that the 12x10 is seeing less ground content due to it's tight/more well defined field generated in the left/right perspective. That's also why I attribute better pinpoining and separation to this coil, though the 15x12 also seemed to be an improvement in that respect over the already excellent stock 10" Tornado.
So I find a clean spot and dig a hole to 7" deep. I wanted to be precise about this so rather than gadging depth my usual way by comparing it to the known length of my digger or Pro Pointer, I brought along a measuring tape. 7" down I lay the silver Rosie flat in the bottom of the plug and then slowly replace the soil bit by bit while I pack it to resemble the original ground matrix as much as possible as well as to prevent as much trapped air as possible in the hole. We all know that Minelabs don't like disturbed ground or air when testing, and we all know that a undisturbed target with along with a coin halo being generated will provide much better responses, so fully expect better depth in undisturbed ground on a coin found "in real life". Also keep in mind the higher mineral content of this soil. In addition, while the ground wasn't bone dry it wasn't exactly what I would call ideal wet conditions either.
At 7 inches deep while I found that I could hear the coin easily, I could not get a stable ID or good coin audio from it. It reacted more or less like an non-uniform piece of junk for the most part. I played with sensitivity to be sure, ranging all the way up and down the dial while doing my short sweeping or "wiggle" over the target to try to achieve a good ID. I also varied the speed and length of the short sweeps or wiggles, going from tight/fast to wider and slower. None of which worked to provide a 180 signal or coin audio, so I decided to dig the coin back up and bring it one inch shallower in the hole so that it would now be at 6" deep. I didn't want to get too shallow with it too quick, because I wanted this coin at just the edge of fringe detection depth with the 12x10, meaning a 180 signal and coin pitch at least with intense effort that would stay that way at least for a few seconds at a time.
I got lucky, because I soon found that 6" on a freshly buried target in this high mineral soil, disturbed ground, RF noise, and all was exactly 6". I could just manage a 180 signal with the right amount of short/medium sweeping over it. This was after adjusting sensitivity once again up and down the dial to find the sweet spot, which ended up being about 1:30PM (right above the "C" in the word "NOISE CANCEL" on the GT's face plate). Note that, because this is a bit lower than max stable sensitivity as indicated above in that theory on that, etc. I double checked by ranging the sensitivity control up and down the dial in small changes two or three more times to be sure. I don't like leaving any room for error or doubt when I go about testing things, so I'm prone to check and re-check things to be sure.
OK, I'm able to just get a good 180 signal/ID for at least around 3 seconds at a time. Mainly the VDI would range in the 140's 150's 160's 170's, and then finally lock and hold on 180 for 2 to maybe 4 seconds at a time so long as I investigated it properly like you should when checking "junk" signals. That means doing wiggles or short sweeps of varying speeds and walking the coil slowly forward and back over the target until that one sweet spot is found where the ID and audio becomes what it should. Perfect. It's fringe depth for the 12x10 in this bad soil on a freshly buried target. It takes work to get it there and keep it a diggable signal. Couldn't ask for riding right to the edge of things for comparison to the stock coil. Time to take off the 12x10 and put the 10" Tornado on.
Swap coils and fire the machine up. Let things "warm up" for a few minutes to insure the ID has stabilized and all that jazz. Everything was as it was for the 12x10. Didn't touch the sensitivity dial because first thing I wanted to see is if the 10" coil was going to get that coin with the exact same sensitivity setting. Nope, very bad audio and a lower/more jumpy ID that never for the most part would make it up to even the 170's. It was ranging in the 120's and 130's or so mostly. Also, with the 12x10 the audio was sounding off with the "COIN" pitch a lot even when the ID was still ranging in lower numbers and making it's way to 180. The 10" coil, though, had much worse audio and never really seemed to clue me off to target potential with a coin pitch. I kept intensly trying to get the audio to go "COIN" on me even if the VDI wasn't getting near 180 but nothing doing.
OK, the 12x10 passed the first test, but perhaps the stock coil's sensitivity setting is a different sweet spot on the dial, so I slowly ranged the sensitivity up and down the dial and then worked at the audio/audio with the short sweeps, trying wiggles, going faster and slower, etc. Still no dice. Remember, I'm very picky about details (like you never would have guessed that!), so I ranged the sensitivity setting up and down the dial several more times and tried and tried to get this coin to talk to me in proper "Coin Speak". Nope, wasn't happening.
I kept my feet in the exact same two depressions on the ground to insure my sweep angle over that coin was EXACTLY what it was for the 12x10, because often fringe coins won't produce a good coin ID from one direction while they will the other. I didn't want to bias the results in any way. Once I was satisfied that life wasn't going to get better for the stock coil I decided to throw the 12x10 back on and see if it some how lost it's touch on that coin. If it wouldn't once again give me a good coin signal then I would doubt my results. Perhaps the stray RF noise in the area had intensified or something odd like that. I don't like leaving anything to chance.
Threw that coil on, set the sensitivity EXACTLY where I had it the first time for it, and once again with some decent effort a 180 ID and coin audio was produced. It wasn't slop happy easy, as I had to do all the precise coil placement and such above to get that ID and audio. On the other hand, it was for sure something I'd dig, and was no more intense to achieve than I normally take in trying to get a fringe target to speak coin to me. If I stopped doing that and just swept over the coin like I was searching for my next target I could easily hear it, it just wasn't a coin signal until I did my normal routine of investigating signals that at first appear to be junk, so don't think I'd never find this coin if I didn't know it was there. The audio was plenty loud enough even if I hacked at it in a lazy sort of way just like I was looking for my next target. I would not have missed it.
Oh, my settings....Iron Mask ON, Threshold Mode, Lowest Volume (no problem hearing it with either coil, it's the quality of the signal we are talking here in what is "dig worthy", Zero Discrimination & Notch, Band 2, and as I said about 1:30PM on the dial is where I found best ID for the 12x10, lower than max stable. I made darn sure I tested the 10" coil over and over at this sensitivity setting, and when that couldn't produce as good of an ID as I said I ranged up and down the dial with that coil looking for something that would go "180" on me.
So thus far the 12x10 has shown me that it is indeed deeper than the stock coil at least in high mineralization. The audio it produced while trying to reach "180" was much better than the stock coil and had much more in the way of "COIN" audio in it back and fourth as it tried and finally got there. The stock coil wouldn't give me even I'd say 5% of it's audio in terms of bumping into the coin pitch here and there, while the 12x10 was an easy 80% or more "I'm A Coin" while it climbed the 180 mountain and finally reached it's peak. You know, that's something I never see people discuss. The audio CAN be "COIN" while the ID is still out to lunch. Pay attention to that when you are hunting fringe stuff or in trash or iron.
This is way too early to tell you for sure this coil is deeper, but I have been digging wheats lately in very dry ground deeper than I ever did with the stock coil in those kinds of dry conditions. As I said, I was also impressed to dig a round tab at 9.25" deep (measured) in sand the other day with this coil when I only had the sensitivity at 3:30PM. I could have cranked it higher but I kept wandering in and out of a high iron or hot rock area of the beach where it required a lower setting to keep the threshold stable. I'm liking the odds that the 12x10 is going to get deeper on land than the stock coil, where as the 15x12 seemed to max out at about 9" on land but went WAY deeper than the stock coil in the sand. To this point my deepest coins on any machine using any coil on land ever have been the stock coil in wet conditions at 11" deep that hit fine/perfect ID/loud audio.
Hope you enjoyed this post thus far and with more testing to follow. Remember, contributions can be made to the Critterhunter Charity Coil Fund if you want me to test other coils like this.
I decided to take an hour and to my first head to head test of these two coils. I love reading this sort of stuff as much as I do doing it, so I hope there are at least some others out there who look will enjoy this short test done thus far. I plan to compare the two head to head at other land sites, varying from low to high minerals, as well as in sand in the near future. I also plan to do some testing of coins on edge because I know these SEF's sure do feel like they are finding me those types of coins more. Some iron/coin mask testing in the ground will also be done and reported on.
Anyway, I headed to a local park up the street since it would have a nice picnic table for me to swap coils on without having to do that on the ground or at my vehicle. I started off with the 12x10 and fired it up to find a clean spot in the ground as well as to judge where sensitivity would remain stable. This soil has high mineralization with a heavy limestone clay content, so at least that would be a good initial test of these two coils compared to each other in high mineral soil. I plan to test them again later in some low mineral rich black soil type of matrix.
Due to nearby RF noise about 75 yards away (heavy power lines) and the high mineral content, the 12x10 was remaining stable at about noon to 1PM. However, as I've beat to death over and over, this does not automatically translate into best ID/audio at depth on Sovereigns and Explorers from my experience, at least *in my soil* which tends to be medium to heavy in mineral matrix at roughly 70% of my sites. For that reason once I got a silver dime in the ground I would judge best coil response by whichever place on the sensitivity dial provided that, as I often find something much lower than stable is where best ID/audio at depth is derived. This has been true for both the stock coil and the 15x12, but the 12x10 seems to be the exception to this rule. While it's best ID/audio sweet spot on a buried dime is still a bit below max stable sensitivity, it is much closer to max stable sensitivity than the other two coils. This jives with my theory that the 12x10 is seeing less ground content due to it's tight/more well defined field generated in the left/right perspective. That's also why I attribute better pinpoining and separation to this coil, though the 15x12 also seemed to be an improvement in that respect over the already excellent stock 10" Tornado.
So I find a clean spot and dig a hole to 7" deep. I wanted to be precise about this so rather than gadging depth my usual way by comparing it to the known length of my digger or Pro Pointer, I brought along a measuring tape. 7" down I lay the silver Rosie flat in the bottom of the plug and then slowly replace the soil bit by bit while I pack it to resemble the original ground matrix as much as possible as well as to prevent as much trapped air as possible in the hole. We all know that Minelabs don't like disturbed ground or air when testing, and we all know that a undisturbed target with along with a coin halo being generated will provide much better responses, so fully expect better depth in undisturbed ground on a coin found "in real life". Also keep in mind the higher mineral content of this soil. In addition, while the ground wasn't bone dry it wasn't exactly what I would call ideal wet conditions either.
At 7 inches deep while I found that I could hear the coin easily, I could not get a stable ID or good coin audio from it. It reacted more or less like an non-uniform piece of junk for the most part. I played with sensitivity to be sure, ranging all the way up and down the dial while doing my short sweeping or "wiggle" over the target to try to achieve a good ID. I also varied the speed and length of the short sweeps or wiggles, going from tight/fast to wider and slower. None of which worked to provide a 180 signal or coin audio, so I decided to dig the coin back up and bring it one inch shallower in the hole so that it would now be at 6" deep. I didn't want to get too shallow with it too quick, because I wanted this coin at just the edge of fringe detection depth with the 12x10, meaning a 180 signal and coin pitch at least with intense effort that would stay that way at least for a few seconds at a time.
I got lucky, because I soon found that 6" on a freshly buried target in this high mineral soil, disturbed ground, RF noise, and all was exactly 6". I could just manage a 180 signal with the right amount of short/medium sweeping over it. This was after adjusting sensitivity once again up and down the dial to find the sweet spot, which ended up being about 1:30PM (right above the "C" in the word "NOISE CANCEL" on the GT's face plate). Note that, because this is a bit lower than max stable sensitivity as indicated above in that theory on that, etc. I double checked by ranging the sensitivity control up and down the dial in small changes two or three more times to be sure. I don't like leaving any room for error or doubt when I go about testing things, so I'm prone to check and re-check things to be sure.
OK, I'm able to just get a good 180 signal/ID for at least around 3 seconds at a time. Mainly the VDI would range in the 140's 150's 160's 170's, and then finally lock and hold on 180 for 2 to maybe 4 seconds at a time so long as I investigated it properly like you should when checking "junk" signals. That means doing wiggles or short sweeps of varying speeds and walking the coil slowly forward and back over the target until that one sweet spot is found where the ID and audio becomes what it should. Perfect. It's fringe depth for the 12x10 in this bad soil on a freshly buried target. It takes work to get it there and keep it a diggable signal. Couldn't ask for riding right to the edge of things for comparison to the stock coil. Time to take off the 12x10 and put the 10" Tornado on.
Swap coils and fire the machine up. Let things "warm up" for a few minutes to insure the ID has stabilized and all that jazz. Everything was as it was for the 12x10. Didn't touch the sensitivity dial because first thing I wanted to see is if the 10" coil was going to get that coin with the exact same sensitivity setting. Nope, very bad audio and a lower/more jumpy ID that never for the most part would make it up to even the 170's. It was ranging in the 120's and 130's or so mostly. Also, with the 12x10 the audio was sounding off with the "COIN" pitch a lot even when the ID was still ranging in lower numbers and making it's way to 180. The 10" coil, though, had much worse audio and never really seemed to clue me off to target potential with a coin pitch. I kept intensly trying to get the audio to go "COIN" on me even if the VDI wasn't getting near 180 but nothing doing.
OK, the 12x10 passed the first test, but perhaps the stock coil's sensitivity setting is a different sweet spot on the dial, so I slowly ranged the sensitivity up and down the dial and then worked at the audio/audio with the short sweeps, trying wiggles, going faster and slower, etc. Still no dice. Remember, I'm very picky about details (like you never would have guessed that!), so I ranged the sensitivity setting up and down the dial several more times and tried and tried to get this coin to talk to me in proper "Coin Speak". Nope, wasn't happening.
I kept my feet in the exact same two depressions on the ground to insure my sweep angle over that coin was EXACTLY what it was for the 12x10, because often fringe coins won't produce a good coin ID from one direction while they will the other. I didn't want to bias the results in any way. Once I was satisfied that life wasn't going to get better for the stock coil I decided to throw the 12x10 back on and see if it some how lost it's touch on that coin. If it wouldn't once again give me a good coin signal then I would doubt my results. Perhaps the stray RF noise in the area had intensified or something odd like that. I don't like leaving anything to chance.
Threw that coil on, set the sensitivity EXACTLY where I had it the first time for it, and once again with some decent effort a 180 ID and coin audio was produced. It wasn't slop happy easy, as I had to do all the precise coil placement and such above to get that ID and audio. On the other hand, it was for sure something I'd dig, and was no more intense to achieve than I normally take in trying to get a fringe target to speak coin to me. If I stopped doing that and just swept over the coin like I was searching for my next target I could easily hear it, it just wasn't a coin signal until I did my normal routine of investigating signals that at first appear to be junk, so don't think I'd never find this coin if I didn't know it was there. The audio was plenty loud enough even if I hacked at it in a lazy sort of way just like I was looking for my next target. I would not have missed it.
Oh, my settings....Iron Mask ON, Threshold Mode, Lowest Volume (no problem hearing it with either coil, it's the quality of the signal we are talking here in what is "dig worthy", Zero Discrimination & Notch, Band 2, and as I said about 1:30PM on the dial is where I found best ID for the 12x10, lower than max stable. I made darn sure I tested the 10" coil over and over at this sensitivity setting, and when that couldn't produce as good of an ID as I said I ranged up and down the dial with that coil looking for something that would go "180" on me.
So thus far the 12x10 has shown me that it is indeed deeper than the stock coil at least in high mineralization. The audio it produced while trying to reach "180" was much better than the stock coil and had much more in the way of "COIN" audio in it back and fourth as it tried and finally got there. The stock coil wouldn't give me even I'd say 5% of it's audio in terms of bumping into the coin pitch here and there, while the 12x10 was an easy 80% or more "I'm A Coin" while it climbed the 180 mountain and finally reached it's peak. You know, that's something I never see people discuss. The audio CAN be "COIN" while the ID is still out to lunch. Pay attention to that when you are hunting fringe stuff or in trash or iron.
This is way too early to tell you for sure this coil is deeper, but I have been digging wheats lately in very dry ground deeper than I ever did with the stock coil in those kinds of dry conditions. As I said, I was also impressed to dig a round tab at 9.25" deep (measured) in sand the other day with this coil when I only had the sensitivity at 3:30PM. I could have cranked it higher but I kept wandering in and out of a high iron or hot rock area of the beach where it required a lower setting to keep the threshold stable. I'm liking the odds that the 12x10 is going to get deeper on land than the stock coil, where as the 15x12 seemed to max out at about 9" on land but went WAY deeper than the stock coil in the sand. To this point my deepest coins on any machine using any coil on land ever have been the stock coil in wet conditions at 11" deep that hit fine/perfect ID/loud audio.
Hope you enjoyed this post thus far and with more testing to follow. Remember, contributions can be made to the Critterhunter Charity Coil Fund if you want me to test other coils like this.
Critterhunter
New member
Some related 12x10 info from today's hunt along with some pics of finds can be found in this thread...
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?21,1314861,1314861#msg-1314861
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?21,1314861,1314861#msg-1314861
Critterhunter
New member
Regardless of the where/what/& why of our differences of opinion in HOW Iron Mask works, let's just get to the real meat of the debate. Do you believe Iron Mask On has more ability to let non-ferrous target sounds through when mixed with iron? Yes, coil placement is critical but I'm not asking that. Do you think Iron Mask ON will sound off to at least some masked coins that OFF won't. The reasons why we get there aren't as important as the end results.