12x10 SEF Coil Field Tests & Trials. Is She A Keeper?

[Critterhunter]

I'd also like to know if Kered has noticed a tone change with the 12x10 versus the stock 10" coil. When I say the S-5 is more like the 10" coil or 15x12 I mean in terms of the audio it produces. For the most part it and the 15x12 sound like the stock 10" Tornado. Yes, the S-5 has a much sharper detection field than the 10" coil, but darn if this 12x10 doesn't feel even thinner in the left/right perspective, more so than the improvement the 15x12 showed. Regardless, the length of the S-5 is still of course shorter, so that lone makes for much more separation ability in certain situations. It's just that the width of the S-5, while great, doesn't feel as distinctly outlined or as sharply in focus concerning it's edge than the 12x10, and to some extent the 15x12. Mainly, the audio of the 12x10 is much more different from the other three coils than those three coils are to each other. The 15x12 improved the audio a bit for me in certain ways, but this 12x10 is just more different (mainly higher pitch) and the way it reacts to targets is so much more responsive. It takes far less work with the coil to isolate and investigate targets than it does with the 10" coil, and it's even better than the 15x12.

I'd like to clarify what I was saying before on that penny next to large iron. It's not that you can't slice and dice targets that way with the stock coil. It's just that often when targets "become one" like this you'll often hear a null mixed in with the coin, and that's when Iron Mask works it's magic to separate the two combined signals and sound off to the coin. With the 12x10 I could more effortlessly hit and isolate the coin signal and not even have to make Iron Mask do it's thing by pulling it out of the null iron signal. I could easily wiggle right at the coin and not get a null mixed in, yet move off just a hair and easily hit only on the large null that seemed to be right up against it. Regardless, the Sovereign even with it's stock 10" coil can separate targets fine with proper if not more intensive work with the parameters of the DD detection field. And still yet, as I've said when the two targets become "one" I've dug more coins with iron in the same hole on the Sovereign than I have on any other machine because Iron Mask just gives it all that much more in the way of special abilities to pull apart the two signals when they are for the most part one signal in the hole. Even super fast recovery machines have never shown me that kind of ability. But, with the 12x10 you can take some of the work load off Iron Mask and precisely investigate the two targets, even when one is a rather large iron signal that seems to be laying right up against that coin. I expect much more in the way of noticing masked targets without having to first investigate a trash signal to discover a hidden coin signal. I also expect much more (like the 15x12) in the way of coins on edge, as that silver ring and one of the pennies I dug the other day also showed.

For all those reasons I'd like to emphasize to people that it's now important to check out and dig those one way coin signals even if they sound really bad from a 90 degree change in coil placement. Chances are those are either coins on edge or masked in a certain way. With "lessor" coils you might not even get the decent coin signal in any direction. I believe these SEFs are taking good targets that are below borderline in terms of what you would bother with digging, and making those targets sound off well at least in certain directions if not from any direction. For that reason I feel it's also important to dig those perfect shallower coin signals that you would just assume are going to be clads. Don't be so sure, as that lame shallow "clad" signal could very well be a coin on edge or masked in a certain way that other conventional coil designs just can't get any good signal from.

You know how it is. Those screw caps or other junk that can give a good coin signal one way and sound bad the other. More often than not those are going to be just that. But, now you are using an SEF coil, and in that case it's going to bring along targets to your notice that some times sound like this. Otherwise, on other coils a good target might not even be able to muster a good one way response. I believe now those "junk" signals have much more potential to be something of value that is even shallow but just won't show up well for other coils. If there are a lot of these coin pretenders in an area that you don't want to dig then at least pay close attention to the audio when swept from it's best direction. Screw caps or other junk most of the time never get quite perfect in tone when swept from the best way. They almost always still have that little bit of "iffy" sound to them. Not so with that ring. Although it was a total train wreck from one direction, the audio was a completely perfect ten from the other with no little doubts in it's audio signature. Key in on those. But at the same time I'd once again emphasize that you can expect perfectly good coin signals from any direction from shallow "clads" that might very well not be a clad. They might be tilted a certain way or have some trash laying right on them that other coils doesn't sound well enough off in audio and ID to hint to their potential.

 

[synthnut]

I'm not sure how the Sovereign sounds with a coin on edge , but the E Trac witll give you a double hit on them when running a DD coil ...... You hear that quick double repeat , you know it's a coin on edge ..... If I'm getting a good reading on a single one way pass , and I don't get the same thing when 90 degrees to that swing , I will dig it anyway, ESPECIALLY when it's shallow .... You really owe it to yourself to check ....Jim

 

[kered]

To be honest i can't tell you about the tone change as i hardly use it in favor of the wot 15"( till i get another 12x15) also i change a lot from sov to etrac to excalibur and also the whites dual field, the first half hour tones seam to be strange after the changover either way. I will try to take note next time i use it, i could do and air test but that might not be the same.

Yesterday i got a dime, year 2010, man did that thing sing out, how you can have problems on those i don't know, down at least 12", a couple of weeks ago 2 zinc pennies(different beach)i think i have a quarter too somewhere from a while back, all i need is a dollar and a half and i can understand some of your tests/numbers etc.

 

[crazyman]

I do just the opposite and mostly hunt with iron mask off in thick iron for different reasons and let the narrow field of the DD coil in combo with a very slow sweep speed do it's thing. Most of my hunting is in old iron infested logging/lumber camps and ghost towns and I've dug coins in the same hole with small iron or nails a number of times with different detectors over the years but I guarantee you those detectors did not see through the iron. Those coins were in a position slightly off to the side or above the iron so that the detection field of the coil would see the coin depending on the orientation of the targets, sweep direction and/or sweep speed. If the coin and the iron such as a nail are close enough or touching they will be seen as one target by most detectors but put that nail 2-3 inches directly above that coin and I have yet to see any detector including the Sovereigns see through the iron and hit the coin.

 

[synthnut]

Crazyman .....
I found this on youtube .....I remember seeing it a while back .....Enjoy ...Jim

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3tbQC-CxaQ

 

[kered]

a few other tesoros will do the same..................... in air

 

[crazyman]

Jim, I've seen these same types of videos with a variety of different detectors. The famous Red Heat detector video was one using a pair of large pliers and other iron but they all have one thing in common, the coin and the iron are touching. I would bet money that it wouldn't hit the same coin 2-3 inches directly behind or below that same piece of metal. I can reproduce the same results with certain detectors. Some do better than others depending on the size of the iron. The Sovereigns will hit a coin in a similar test with nail size iron but not on iron that big. My old Wilson Coin Select would hit a coin when touching a piece of iron that size and the Musky's did well also but like all detectors move that coin away from the iron and the results were the same.

 

[kered]

Shine a torch at the bolt, if the coins in the shadow Adios, you wont get it, look closely at the video, the coin is sticking out to one side slightly.

 

[Critterhunter]

Yes, the nature of a coil's detection field means that the first thing it hits reflects the signal and for the most part won't see the second target. However, despite those situations most of the time the field is getting washed to some degree in the coin and the nail as you sweep over it. What happens then is the signal on most machines is either totally discriminated out (thus the differences between Iron Mask On and OFF, or at least between a Sovereign and most other makes on the market), or the machine will report an averaged signal that is somewhere much further down the scale, roughly half way between the conductivity of the coin and whatever the trash (iron in this case) reads as.

I've tested this here and there and I can lay a square tab right on top of a silver dime and still get a perfect ID, or depending on exactly how it's positioned, at the very least get an only slightly averaged one down to like 176 or so on the scale. That's impressive, and no amount of super fast recovery speed on other machines I've own matters when the two targets become one like this.

Jim just saw this feat for himself the other day when he found a dime with a round tab wrapped around it. I'll say this, he told me on the phone just how well the Sovereign hit on that target, and I'll leave the rest of it out if I heard him right in the hopes to not upset guys who are using a certain machine they paid a good deal more for. Jim, correct me if I'm wrong on this? I seem to remember you saying you left certain details out so as not to have to take any heat on the forum. I'm not exactly saying what you said in total, and people can feel free to draw their own conclusions and bash me instead on this one. The Sovereign was giving you both tones, correct? Probably said too much there. Oh well, not one to keep a secret.

On the coin on edge thing. Even the GT with stock 10" coil has popped me more coins on edge like that than my prior machines. They have an unmistakable response, good one way but worbly or at least dropping down some the other. If you read the ID chart thread I relate a story a while back where I had a dime on edge do a particular response that is unique in it's traits. Once you practice that you'll know it when you see it. At the very least I think the 12x10 is better at this, just like the 15x12 was. It'll see coins on edge that average coils might have a much harder time even mustering some kind of acceptable response from. This is just one of the other reasons why I think most of the "zing" the SE and Etrac is said to have in special abilities is more due to the coil design of the Pro Coil than some whopping massive improvement over prior Explorer models. The stock 10" coil on the Explorer (any one of the variations there of of those) was about the poorest coil I've seen on any machine, and I mean that. I bet if an older Explorer model had a 12x10 strapped to it and no model number on the box that most Explorer guys would have thought the machine had been sped up, because it's response time and ability to split targets apart would be greatly enhanced. Like I said before, had you handed me a Sovereign with this coil on it I would have bet money somebody increased the clock speed of the computer. It's more due to you riding the edge of a very thin detection field left/right width wise than anything else.

Kered, I don't have problems with dimes at 10". Oh, I see...you were referring to our American money versus being found over where you live. Sorry, confused there. Also, at first I was taken back by your favoring the WOT over the 12x10, but then I remembered you are primarily a beach hunter, and am happy to hear that you still favor the 15x12 over the WOT when it comes to max beach coverage.

 

[synthnut]

Jim just saw this feat for himself the other day when he found a dime with a round tab wrapped around it. I'll say this, he told me on the phone just how well the Sovereign hit on that target, and I'll leave the rest of it out if I heard him right in the hopes to not upset guys who are using a certain machine they paid a good deal more for. Jim, correct me if I'm wrong on this? I seem to remember you saying you left certain details out so as not to have to take any heat on the forum. I'm not exactly saying what you said in total, and people can feel free to draw their own conclusions and bash me instead on this one. The Sovereign was giving you both tones, correct? Probably said too much there. Oh well, not one to keep a secret.


Nothng to hide and not affraid of heat .....Never was , never will be ........Both the E Trac and the Sovereign hit this dime that had a pull tab completely wrapped around it .....I had the stock 10 " Tornado on the Sovereign , and the stock Pro Coil on the E Trac ....I was hitting BOTH numbers very fast ....I was getting a low to high blip , and then a high to low blip ....The tab was wrapped around the dime .....I was so shocked to get both numbers , and was even more shocked to see how this thing even existed unless someone wrapped the dime with the tab ....I can't see how else this thing even got put tothether the way it was ..... I tried moving slowly with BOTH machines and I was basically getting the same results from both machines , but the E Tracs tones were set on "Normal" which is more abrupt and a sharper tone ......BOTH machines were hitting 2 tones VERY quickly .... As I said it was a very quick blip, but it was clear enough to hear it going from low to high , and then again from high to low .....

This was a day that I had both machines on the beach and I was comparing tones, and readings , and just general feel of both machines to see the differences first hand for myself ... One thing I could say about the Sovereign is that you can draw around the target better than you can with the E Trac ....BUT the E Trac can tell you more about what's in the ground from the meter .... The E Trac is more sharp sounding and I think pin points better , and the Sovereign is more smooth sounding and does not pin point as welll .....WHen I am talking pin point , I DON'T mean in Pin Point mode ...I mean by just using the search coil both Machines in Discriminate mode .....

As I said in an earlier thread , BOTH machines have their place ...... Jim

Here's the thread ....

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?21,1295185

 

[crazyman]

Are you saying the Sovereign's iron mask will see through iron hit the coin?

 

[synthnut]

If you're talking to me , I'm not saying that at all ....I merely showed a link to a video that showed what it showed , and explained what happed to me on the beach with both my E Trac and my Sovereign .....????????.......Jim

 

[crazyman]

n/t

 

[kered]

the dime and pulltab are both non ferous, i think when iron is involved and hence the null things change

 

[synthnut]

Yes, so I don't understand why the Pulltab /dime story was brought into the iron conversation , as long as we all know that "who's " on first , and "What's " on second ....I DON"T KNOW !!!.......Jim

 

[crazyman]

Kered, it has to do with discrimination. Even using the Sovereign if you discriminate out a pull tab the same as the iron nail and place a coin 2-3 inches under the pull tab you will not get a coin signal. It will null or at best give a aggravated signal like most detectors but will mostly null. If you partially except the pull tab using disc. or notch you will get a somewhat better signal on the coin. If you take the same discriminated pull tab and put it 2-3 inches to either side of the coin it still won't hit it as long as the coin is still below the tab. This is why I don't use discrimination or notch with the Sovereigns. A faster detector would work much better than the Sovereigns for someone who likes to use discrimination..

 

[crazyman]

This was supposed to be about iron mask.

 

[Critterhunter]

Jim, my bag then. I thought what you told me on the phone was a little more decisive than that in terms of your comparisons between the Sovereign and Etrac. If I heard you wrong then I take that back, because I don't like people putting words in my mouth either.

One thing about the PP ability of the Sovereign in discriminate versus the Etrac. Remember that that Etrac is using the Pro Coil. The 15x12 or 12x10 is much better at pinpointing the target for me than the stock 10" coil by using the tip or tail of the coil, which is also what I do with the 10" coil. I prefer using the heal of the 10" coil on land or in the water, and I prefer using the heal of the 15x12 in the water as well. Makes it easier to just stick my big toe at the V at the back of the coil and then place the scoop there. On land, however, I prefer using the tip of the 15x12 or 12x10. The only time I'll use the heal of those two coils on land is when trash is at my feet and I don't feel like moving to the other side of the coin to use the tip. Just easier to walk the coil away from it and then use the heal. The 10" coil on land I almost always use the heal of the coil, but it's just not as sharp in distinction as the SEFs are. I'll go to PP if there is trash nearby, but if the target moves on me due to nearby trash in PP, is so deep that I can't hear it in PP, or the heavy ground minerals cause the coil to sound off in many places, then I just keep it in discriminate and PP that way. I've found the stock 10" coil to be rather good at PPing and separation in either mode as well, just not as good as the SEFs, but still much better than the 10" coils I had on my Explorers. I bet you'll find that PPing with the 12x10 or 15x12 will be as good or better than it is on the Etrac with the ProCoil.

Crazyman, no...I'm not saying Iron Mask is able to see through iron. No machine can do that. What I am saying is that when the two are laying against or somewhat on top of each other that that's when no amount of separation or recovery speed can compensate. It's then up to the machine to take that dual target signal and try to break it apart, or at least not average it severely or discriminate it out. That's where I think Iron Mask works it's magic. I've seen it give a totally perfect coin ID on a silver dime in tests like that, or if it does average it most of the time it will only drop it down to say 176, maybe 173 in severe cases. That's still much better than "somewhere in the middle" of the scale that I've seen a lot of other machines do for me. In relation to this topic, I've tested this on not just iron but things like pull tabs as well. Same results. Very impressive, and I get credit to whatever Iron Mask ON is doing to try to bust the two mixed signals apart and show you the good one.

A while back I did a bunch of testing on this and reported the exact responses a silver dime gave with various forms of notching and such. I seem to remember also using the notch to discriminate out the pull tab, yet the coin still sounded off. Again, probably due to the less averaging of the two targets in close proximity to each other. I even had that pull tab laying on top of the dime for some of the testing and was shocked to see what it was doing. One important thing in this respect is that even with an averaged down signal to 176 or 173, those are still two coin numbers that people should be digging in the hopes of finding an oldie. For that reason even if running a notch I see far more potential at digging "yet another penny signal" and it turning out to be a silver dime masked in some form or fashion. At other times the 180 signal wasn't even averaged at all. Again, this was by using both a nail or a pull tab. I may have to dig that old thread up or at least re-test all that and post a report on it.

Let's put it this way- My QXT Pro was about as fast as it gets in terms of recovery speed. However, in any form of proximity of nearby targets (say a pull tab and a silver dime) I find that I can also isolate one from the other with the Sovereign and even the stock coil by careful coil placement. You have to constantly think of the DD signal in terms of it running in a line for the most part from tip to tail of the coil. If you cross that line over the pull tab first it will have more trouble hearing the coin, but if you switch to 90 degrees in relation to it then it's rather easy to isolate the coin and not see the pull tab. I don't care how close they are to each other. If you wiggle in just the right spot it's 180 city. Faster recovery speed on other machines offers no more ability than a Sovereign at seeing those two separate targets, and even less when those machines are using concentric coils versus the DD on the Sovereign. The only "advantage" a fast recovery machine has is the ability to be swung very fast and still have time to recovery from and sound off to both targets. That's it, and with proper coil technique and speed a Sovereign will split those two targets apart as good as any machine, you just can't swing at it like your launching a golf ball.

Further into it, once the two targets are touching or overlapping each other in some respect no amount of recovery speed or sweep technique is going to work anymore. Now it's up to the machine's ability to look at that dual target signal and decide how it wants to handle it. That's where the Sovereign for me leaves most other machines in the dust. It can provide a perfect signal (in terms of iron or even a pull tab), or depending on target relation and orientation it can report something that is averaged down a bit in conductivity. Most machines will usually split that conductivity to roughly some where half way between say the dime and a pull tab, or the dime and the iron, so more than likely you are going to get a rather bad nickle signal say for instance. Not so with the Sovereign. I'm not saying it can always produce a perfect ID or one only slightly averaged down, but I am saying that it will do it in more different situations in relation to the target orientations to each other than any other machine I've owned.

 

[Critterhunter]

Good news, or should I say bad news for those who can't stand the novels I write. I might have a deal in the works to get my hands on a non-working S-12! From what I understand the cable is broke near where it enters the coil. I'm reasonbly sure the owner and I can work out a price for it so long as I can fix the coil, or take it back if I can't. Does anybody know if the S-12 is epoxy filled, because this person hinted that salt water might have been able to travel down inside the coil via the broken cable. If it's epoxy filled then that wouldn't happen, and even if it's not chances are the coil nut or some type of seal where it enters the coil might have kept that from happening.

If I do work out a deal on this coil and fix it and you can look in horror to me doing side by side comparisons of it to the 12x10 as well as the stock 10" coil. Looks like some people might need more coffee!

If anybody else out there has a non-working coil of any type for the Sovereign shoot me a PM with a price on it.

 

[crazyman]

I'm still not sure you and I are talking about the same thing. I don't equate target averaging with target masking as being the same when talking about discrimination or when the two targets are touching or are very close together. I've had detectors that average close targets just like the Sovereign. As far as masking from iron or any other discriminated target I haven't found the Sovereign to be any different than any other detector I've ever used. I haven't seen anything magical about iron mask in the field, in my test garden or in air tests. I have dug hundreds of targets in my iron infested logging camps and have yet to see the Sovereign with the iron mask perform any differently as far as iron masking than most detectors in iron. I have a test garden that I replanted about 4 years ago. One target is a silver dime located about 3 inches directly below a medium size rusty nail. The second target is the same as the first but the silver dime is located below and about 3 inches to the right of a similar sized nail. The third target is like the second but is about 5 inches away from the nail. Target one is impossible to get a hit on when the nail is discriminated out with any detector. Target two is very tough for a lot detectors and target three can be hit by most detectors with a fast recovery speed. The Sovereign will not make a peep on target one period it won't hit target two either with a normal sweep but knowing that target two is there I can walk around it and play with it using the tip of the coil and get enough to make me want to dig. Target three will give me enough of a signal with a slow sweep that I know there is a good target there. The saving grace to using the slow recovery of the Sovereign in iron is not the iron mask feature but the DD coil design especially when walking around a questionable target and using the tip to separate targets that are close. I personally think the iron mask feature on the Sovereigns is a bit over hyped.