You CANT do THAT Here!!

[Mick in Dubbo]

In Oz, we have to get permission to hunt school's otherwise we can get arrested. Some Have. If you see the School Principal and get your permission in writing, then you can politely show your lady cop and encourage her to continue with her duties elsewhere! Not that one should be too tongue in check with our law enforcement officers.
Mick Evans.

 

[MNCoinhunter]

I was planning on asking the principal of our local school about detecting there, but he has bigger fish to fry right now. A 12 year old kid brought a pistol to school the week before last, apparently just to show it off. His handling of the situation is under scrutiny...probably would be bad timing on my part.

 

[dahut]

Yeah the courthouse unless they are posted online. The Board of Education has a list of rules and regulations or go to the office of the district that governs that particular school and look at their rules governing metal detecting on the schools or school in their district. What throws me - what has metal detecting got to do with break ins. Did they think you was going to use your tector as a hammer to bust out a window or knock a door down. They just pulled that one out of the hat probably because they couldn't think of a legit one. Would they have run you off had you been using a weed eater? And was everybody forbidden access regardless of activity?

Bill

The detectorists here who side with the cops in this say the "break in angle" WAS the reason this started.
In their minds, I was a potential burglar - or some potential threat, anyway.
I understand that - Hello, people?! I'm on board with that... no problem.
That IS doing their job, performing the duty they've sworn to uphold.

I'll ask it again: When does a high school not face the threat of break ins?
It was happening when I was a kid, about a century ago. Its no news flash.

But as it turns out, that isn't the main issue. She spoke of break-ins sheepishly, almost as a half excuse. I wasn't accused of them and no Field Interrogation Report was filed on the matter. It wasn't a subject of any investigation on their part.

What is at issue was this declaration from the officer: "You cant be here doing that!" That statement was spoken emphatically, the basis of her outrage - and was the basis for everything else that followed.

"We've had break-ins" - spoken sheepishly, nothing more said
"You cant be here doing that" - emphatic, you have to leave

She added the details of "unless I was faculty or student," I was not allowed on school property.
This has become a common caveat on schools these days, a catchall for the rest of us. After speaking with the area's MD'ing club VP, I now learn it has been wielded here, more and more, as the reason to expel detectorists from schools. But that is just an enhancement to the "you cant be here" statement.

- Did it matter that I wasn't breaking in? No. That was quickly found not to be the case.
- Did it matter that I was doing nothing more dastardly than rooting in the pine straw for pennies? No. That was little understood, in fact.
- Did it matter that school was out for the week? No.
- Did they even bother to look further into it? No.

The police in this case had only one thought: I was there and you cant be there. They have a rule to enforce, i.e., unless you are student or faculty you cant be on school grounds.

Does that apply to all activities? It can, yes. If they want it to.
To your question Bill, "Will it?" Ive encountered a few non-detectorists who say it already has.

Here's the deal. Detecting is an independent activity, pursued in most cases in private without anyone's approval. In this day and age of the "full disclosure" group mind, that is the same as a threat. My pal Hal, who is usually no philosopher, speaks of that. "Things have changed," he admits.
Thanks to detectors like the ACE 250 and other low end starter units, more an more people are out there with detectors. This sort of enforcement for no good reason will grow and happen more - to all of us.

I believe that one person can make a difference. But I can't help you keep your rights - only you can do that.

 

[dahut]

Talk to the Principal and ask him to draft a permission slip to show to those trigger happy control freaks.
PennyFinder

I intend to. However, who do you think he will side with? If it were to get out that he rescinded the cops' eviction order, after the fact, how will that look?
He is essentially a civil servant, a functionary on behalf of the School Board - themselves elected officials and appointees. This is government.

Ever heard of a high school caled Columbine? Are there many jobs out there for principals who contradict the very cops invited to protect the school?

PS Please be careful how you word things - they were not "trigger happy" ...in fact, no firearms were in evidence.
And while they are good little controllers, they were not wild eyed "freaks." They were civil, if utterly dispassionate.
If we are to stand on our rights and moral outrage - then we must exhibit morals.

 

[Uncle Willy]

Yeah many years ago my cousin's kids set fire to their school back in Illinois and burned it down and my cousin was an employee of the school. Course this happened at night - not in the middle of the day. I'm glad we don't have your problem out here. Seems things are really going to pot back east. People must be mind numbing paranoid back there. I read and hear about a lot of guys being run out of schools and parks back there.. It's getting to be really sad. I'll be interested to hear what you find out rule wise if you pursue this problem. This could spread like the plague and eliminate hunt areas all over the place. Good luck.

Bill

 

[Uncle Willy]

How do you know the Principal is even aware of their little escapade. Did they state that they were operating on a request from school officials?

Bill

 

[BARKER]

Hi folks; I'm stabding here listening to all this and I want to respond but I'm afraid that if I do I will get shunned for it but here it goes anyway.I agree with and understand the frustration.There are times when cops are either morons or on a power trip.But I can't help wonder what ever happened to the FMDAC.. If I remember correctly we basically trashed it until it just about no longer exists.If I understand things right the sole purpose of the FMDAC was to help prevent this from happening in the first place.I hope you can resolve that problem and realize thjey need to protect the school but I also hope that we as a group don't ruin and denegrate that which is trying to help us in these matters.I do not agree with all of the FMDAC's operation but I do realize their intent.Venting to ourselves is just spinning our wheels; it gets us no where.It will only be when we as a whole realize that we "NEED" political pull and savvy and learn how to use it, then we will finally start to see the end of this type of treatment from those in AUTHORITY"I have watched this scenario unfold for 39 years now and it makes me sick that we no longer are afforded the Innocent uintil proven guilty gauranty afforded us by the Constitution we live by.That this is trampled upon daily to our own detriment.I wonder what it will be like in 10 years????? HEADLINES: MAN SHOT FOR LOOTING WITH METAL DETECTOR. NO CHARGES TO BE FILED. Think about it folks ok.I await your reply. PEACE:RONB

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Barker, you ask:

"But I can't help wonder what ever happened to the FMDAC"

I think you mis-understand this specific occurance. Read again and you will see it had nothing to do with metal detecting. He could have been there for anything (sun-tanning, playing frisbee, using the swing-set, jogging, etc....) and it would have been the same thing. Therefore this has nothing to do with the FMDAC, or md'rs "rights", etc......

 

[Double T]

First off, I spent the last 35 years as a Law Enforcement officer in the State of Oklahoma. I am very aware that most police officer should and could use better judgement in dealing with this type of situation. What they normally do is react to most situations without a great deal of thought. (IT MAKES THEM FEEL IMPORTANT). The supervisor may have been more politically correct but you would have gotten pretty much the same answer.
Don't do this because &&&&&,******, and so on.

Each school board makes their own rules and regulations within it's respected school district. Most publish these rules and normally are on their websites. They really do not have to have a lot of reasons to not allow anyone on the premises, that is to said someone not doing a direct business with the school system, or someone who does not have children in the school system, etc. An example may be someone on the grounds before, after or during school hours without first checking into the office for clearance...

They claim it is for the security and safety of the school and the children. I might suggest either checking school policy or talking with the members of the school board to get express permission before entering their (OUR- we the taxpayer's) property. Most schools in Oklahoma require anyone entering school property to report to the main office and explain their reasons for being there.

I also agree that unless school was in session or it was the middle of the night, the officers did not use very good judgement in this case. I do not believe the MDing is a suspicious activity, at least not my viewpoint. Especially since the officers knew the persons involved. As someone said earlier, "TIMES have definitely changed:

 

[dahut]

So far, all the people I have approached have sided with the cops on this, when pressed. There is sympathy for me and my "little hobby," sure. Most agree that as long as Im not leaving holes (on which matter there is always doubt), Im not really doing anything wrong. But the school is sacrosanct and must be protected. Ditto city property and the parks, which is the latest development.** Personal rights or initiative is sacrificed for that.

** Some of you may recall my encounter with the Parks Department, last season.

The thing that has really intrigued me in all of this are the comments and sentiments among my fellow detectorists. Many say, "Give the cops what for and blast em with both barrels..." or they claim I was wrong and the police acted righteously. A few suggest I offer donuts.
But the really disturbing ones are those who, "Sorry it happened to you; glad it hasn't happened here, yet...okay, see you later. Good Luck" etc.
Friends, it can and will happen to you if you're not mindful.

I live in the South - the independent man, engaged in his own pursuits, has always held a high place in society here. But that has indeed changed.

The outside world, those who aren't detectorists, don't understand you. They are not your friends and are sure that as you go about your hobby, you are anything from a destroyer of public property to a looter. A few are still okay with you and your hobby, of course.
But many know that you will dig holes, most think you are "weird" and some are simply busybodies, concerned that you might find something of value.
When they think it out that far, the next thing that comes to the subservient mind is this: "Can he get away with that?! Can he do that here?!"

I know I sound like a wild-eyed whacko long about now. But I say these things because I've heard all of them in the last year, all while I was minding my own business detecting.
My incident with the police is just one among many around here, Ive learned. My friends, if it can happen here, it can happen anywhere.

Wish me good negotiations with the school board next week

 

[dahut]

Barker, you ask:

"But I can't help wonder what ever happened to the FMDAC"

I think you mis-understand this specific occurance. Read again and you will see it had nothing to do with metal detecting. He could have been there for anything (sun-tanning, playing frisbee, using the swing-set, jogging, etc....) and it would have been the same thing. Therefore this has nothing to do with the FMDAC, or md'rs "rights", etc......

Tom is right, Barker. Here's why.

I was told I cant do THAT here, once my detector was seen. I tend to agree with him that it was not intended to condemn detecting itself, but was rather a general caveat about simply being there. But the point is the same: The school is OFF LIMITS, no matter what you are doing. PERIOD.
This is why it is very, very bad that Tom is right.

- I heard from the FMDAC, yesterday.They are trying to be helpful, but as you note, they lack teeth and resources. The only person they have is 2 hours away, whom I have not heard from, yet.
- The ACLU seems not to care, either. I have gotten no response from them, although it is early yet.
- The school principal has not commented yet, but he probably wont until next week when school returns.
- I dont know any civil attorneys I can call upon, pro bono, either.
- We'll see what the school board says next week. I found nothing on their websites, in the city codes or elsewhere, in fact, to prohibit metal detecting on school grounds.
As soon as I inquire about it, something will be produced, though. Of that Im certain.
- I do have an editor friend who handles the opinion section of the newspaper. He has given me soapbox privileges in the past - perhaps he will again.

 

[MNCoinhunter]

Best of luck in your negotiations. I agree with you wholeheartedly. I have had great success in asking beforehand, but I'm sure that eventually someday I will get a "no you can't" from somebody. It may help me that I live in a small town of 600, maybe not. We have a very large selection of busy-bodies here so I'm sure that in time, I will meet a few. Best of luck...I hope you get your permission.

 

[dahut]

In Oz, we have to get permission to hunt school's otherwise we can get arrested. Some Have. If you see the School Principal and get your permission in writing, then you can politely show your lady cop and encourage her to continue with her duties elsewhere! Not that one should be too tongue in check with our law enforcement officers.
Mick Evans.

We can hope Mick. Its about all we have in this case.
But I expect the principal, whom I also know, will side with the authorities - he's at their mercy, too.

Its enough to drive me back to RC planes. Anybody want to buy a few detectors?

 

[MNCoinhunter]

You may be surprised to find out that all you needed was a permission slip from the principal you know. And there is'nt much the police can say or do when you have that. Like you said, he may agree with the way the police handled it, but he may let you hunt anyways. What could possibly feel better than watching them leave with their tails tucked between their legs?

 

[dahut]

You may be surprised to find out that all you needed was a permission slip from the principal you know. And there is'nt much the police can say or do when you have that. Like you said, he may agree with the way the police handled it, but he may let you hunt anyways. What could possibly feel better than watching them leave with their tails tucked between their legs?

Youre right, of course. I reckon you cant win if you dont give it a good try. I already have. We'll see....

 

[Double T]

I honestly feel that once the school board hears your side of the story, they will have to make the correct decision. I have done some background checks on you on the internet (of course) and do not believe (from what I found), you act or sound like a wild-eyed whacko but someone who true enjoys and believes in what he is doing.
While doing my little research I found this on someone's blog,

You must have passion, committment, involvement, immersion, perhaps even obsession, if you are to ever achieve anything worthwhile. All the greats at anything do it - they don't go at "their thing" half way. They pursue
it to its ultimate possibilities, without distraction.

The best of Luck to you

Terry

 

[slingshot]

As far as bashing officers, my best friend for over 40 years was and is an officer and I've been side by side detecting, fishing, hunting, etc. and during those times I've seen with my own eyes, following him on patrol back in the good ole' days when that was allowed, there are thoughtful as well as thoughtless officers just as with all people in all walks of life. I so well remember a security officer running me off a school EVEN THOUGH I had permission and even told him the principal's name. In the meantime my best friend pulled upon the campus to chat with him and he proceeded to tell him how he ran off a "weirdo" with a metal detector and describing me with even more terms. Well, this caused a light bulb to go on in his head and he asked what the "weirdo" was driving. After he described my vehicle, my best friend turned and walked away and said "That weirdo was my best friend". Yours was ONLY a report of facts that happened and IMHO the officer overreacted. And I don't think my best friend would mind me saying that.

 

[Uncle Willy]

Good luck bud and may the Detector Gods be with you. I don't envy you as I hate dealing with the establishment but it is often necessary to challenge infringement on one's rights as a citizen.

Bill

 

[Mick in Dubbo]

I don't mind a bit of RC planes either! I've got a few models lying about. Don't get to fly much though. The next interest for me, will be flying, Possibly a para motor. The less I have around me when I fly, the better.
Mick Evans.
P.S. I'll still keep detecting though.

 

[gilfordberry]

They were just doing their jobs. Yeah, right. Seems I remember Nazis at war crimes trials saying the same thing.

What they were doing was replacing common sense with a power trip. I'm on the west coast, too, and I do hunt school grounds all the time - well, IF the grounds are open, not posted as closed, and there are no students present. In some instances, school grounds are intentionally left open for the community to utilize their tennis courts, basketball courts, playground equipment, or jogging tracks on the weekend. This is what should be done to all school property. It is, after all, taxpayer owned, not school board owned. Some schools have gone so far as to allow utilization of their gymnasium for week-end exercise. That's being a good partner in the community. Sure, it costs some money - a few dollars for utilities and a few thousand extra a year for janitorial and/or security services. But that's money very well spent.

It's very common here for a small park to share a corner of a "school" property, and often without fences between the park and the school grounds. But I have noticed that little by little those sites are being addressed with six-foot high cyclone fencing. Is that to keep the kids in or we evil detectorists out? I know there have been break-ins at some of the schools - but it usually turns out to be some disgruntled student there to vent his anger at a teacher by trashing the place, or on a few occasions by a workforce of thieves stealing from the school's computer lab. And those guys are smart enough to disguise their presence as some sort of contractor doing week-end repair work of some sort or another. So should the cops have checked you out? Yes, definitely. Should they have asked you to leave once they knew who you were and what you were doing? H**l NO.

There is always a trade off of freedom for security. Are we so paranoid as a society that we are willing to give up ALL our freedoms for the mirage of security? Because that's all it is. Any determined REALLY bad guys would laugh at all our efforts to provide a secure environment. It's like the old saying that locks are there to keep honest people honest. They do not stop the dishonest ones.