You CANT do THAT Here!!

[grumpyolman]

Any of you bashing cops live on the West Coast? Darn!! Both my daughter and my son-in-law are patrol law enforcement officers. Neither of them nor any of their friends I know would behave like that. On a potential burglary in process, that's probably the way it came in, and you don't ask for a fast back-up is totally stupid. There were four of em in Washington State having coffee and some puke walked up behind them and shot and killed all four. That's a pretty good back up and they all got wasted. Total BS!

Yeah!! They should have come to a different conclusion and perhaps a bit more kindness and PR. But they were just doing their jobs. There had been vandalism and burglaries there recently and they are SUPPOSED to prevent that or at least be a deterrent. They were dispatched to that location and in so doing had a legal contract with the reporting person to investigate the complaint. However, IMHO, they had no legal justification to run you off. There's a thing called a FIR..Field Interrogation Report. They ask for ID and find out who it is and why they are there and it gets recorded. IF there is or was an issue at the time you were there, they know who to contact as possible suspect or a possible witness. I suppose most of those who have responded so negatively think they police shouldn't perform that function either.

Next time somebody is breaking into your house, call the principal or the mayor. They'll help immediately.

Nobody said if school was in session or not. If not they were a bit over zealous. If school was in session how are you any different, in appearance, than the last child molester that was there? Haven't you seen the signs on the front of the building that all visitors must report to the main office upon entry? Or...can anyone just walk in an wander the halls because they are tax payers? You can see the school does have a responsibility to keep your kids and mine safe. Good for them if they ran you off and school was in session. If that's the way it happened you are to blame. IF not...then there is something wrong and somebody needs to educate the officers and have them back off a little. Believe me...you don't know the whole story. You only know what you experienced and there might be a lot of other, equally weak issues, about which you have zero knowledge nor the need to know.

I'd be POed also if I experienced that. I'd just make sure I knew who the officers were by name and I'd ask to speak to their Sergeant, or better yet, their captain. Next I'd go to the city council or the mayor. Get the procedure changed, booting MDer out of a school ground, and get em to behave more appropriately. Come on. Some of you other retired LEO chime in here. HH jim

 

[jmaryt]

unfortunately they get a bad rap because too many are a**h*l*s who tear the hell out of the property!..
it IS very disconcerting for "caretakers" to see holes carelessly excavated..we all get "slammed" and suffer as a result!
officials become "paranoid" and toss ya!..in general,unless people become more cognizant of their actions,the only place you will be able to hunt
WILL be in your own yard!

(h.h!)
j.t.

 

[dahut]

On a potential burglary in process, that's probably the way it came in, and you don't ask for a fast back-up is totally stupid.

She was making her rounds and spotted my truck. No call - I asked.

Yeah!! They should have come to a different conclusion and perhaps a bit more kindness and PR. But they were just doing their jobs. There had been vandalism and burglaries there recently and they are SUPPOSED to prevent that or at least be a deterrent. They were dispatched to that location and in so doing had a legal contract with the reporting person to investigate the complaint. However, IMHO, they had no legal justification to run you off. There's a thing called a FIR..Field Interrogation Report. They ask for ID and find out who it is and why they are there and it gets recorded. IF there is or was an issue at the time you were there, they know who to contact as possible suspect or a possible witness. I suppose most of those who have responded so negatively think they police shouldn't perform that function either.

Their was no FIR that I was a part of; I signed nothing. When they saw who I was and what I was doing, the two of them told me to leave on no grounds but what I've stated here. Doing their jobs? I can agree with that to a point.
Forcing me to leave for doing it, once they found out the nature of the situation? I don't get that.

Ask your family members how it should have been handled. I'd be interested to hear their comments.

Nobody said if school was in session or not. If not, they were a bit over zealous. If school was in session, how are you any different, in appearance, than the last child molester that was there? Haven't you seen the signs on the front of the building that all visitors must report to the main office upon entry? Or...can anyone just walk in an wander the halls because they are tax payers? You can see the school does have a responsibility to keep your kids and mine safe.

School was not in session, it is closed for spring break. I do not detect on school grounds during hours - strictly on weekends and during off times. Period.
My acquaintance, the police officer, could figure that much out but she didn't care. I was in violation of her carefully ordered world, of the ground she was sworn to protect.
Good gal to have in a foxhole, I expect. Not so hot behind the badge.
My kids went to that school - I understand the situation from their point of view, believe me.

I'd be POed also if I experienced that. I'd just make sure I knew who the officers were by name and I'd ask to speak to their Sergeant, or better yet, their captain. Next I'd go to the city council or the mayor. Get the procedure changed, booting MD'er out of a school ground, and get em to behave more appropriately. Come on. Some of you other retired LEO chime in here. HH jim

Thank you, lets do hear from some other LE folks. I've contacted the ACLU to at least hear another side of the civil issues.
I'd also like to hear from the FMDAC, out of curiosity.
There is an MD club in the area but they arent likely to get involved - their mostly relic hunters and wont feel threatened. Too much hassle, I expect.
I will contact the School District moguls and the police leadership, but I expect at best a hollow victory - I may be allowed back to detect on school grounds.
But, I will most likely alienate at least one cop for calling attention to it.

And when has that ever turned out good?

 

[dahut]

unfortunately they get a bad rap because too many are a**h*l*s who tear the hell out of the property!..
it IS very disconcerting for "caretakers" to see holes carelessly excavated..we all get "slammed" and suffer as a result!
officials become "paranoid" and toss ya!..in general,unless people become more cognizant of their actions,the only place you will be able to hunt
WILL be in your own yard!

(h.h!)
j.t.

So are you saying resistance is futile?

 

[itfchaos]

It is a school ground and there are kids there. If I was an officer or school grounds keeper I would run you off to, just for protection of the kids and property.

What IF the metal detecting guy was scouting out potential targets of kidnapping and I did nothing of it? Then next day a 12 year old girl or boy is kidnapped and I didn't follow the rules of the school "Only teachers and students on campus"?
I sure am not going to lose my job over some guy wanting to detect school grounds, and I am doing what I get paid to do, protect the kids & property. You know how much fuss would of been generated yet alone all the national news from a kidnapping from school grounds? ESPECIALLY if news got out that an officer seen the suspect metal detecting (or acting like he was detecting) but didn't ask them to leave?
Same goes for break in's, what if you did break into the school and I was an officer and I did't run you off the property. How would I explain that to my boss, "Well I seen the guy, he was detecting the grounds, and I thought he was harmless, but I guess he wasn't?".

You can't trust anyone in these times but yourself, and some can't even do that.
I don't see the officers here at fault, they are doing what they get paid to do, I would do the same thing if I was in their shoes, especially if no one but students or teachers are allowed on the campus. Most schools I have went to, that is the rule only students or teachers (employees) allowed on campus.

I can't tell you how many times I go to a park metal detecting and kids end up following me or want to dig for me, etc.. Kids are like cats, very curious. I was at a park in Hillsboro, MO yesterday evening and a 7 year old girl was asking me what I was looking for and was very intersted in recovering stuff I am detecting from the ground. The entire time my wife and I were thinking, "where is her parents? why are they not over here getting her?, etc...".

 

[Ron from Michigan]

Dave,the world and school grounds are a lot safer place with out the likes of you metal detecting on the school ground.We are all pleased that our tax dollars are being spent on these brilliant crime fighters.Too bad a taxpayer and good citizen doesn't count for much,LOL although its real nice they will let you metal detect at other places.Actually I would challenge them on any restrictions placed on any of your activities.Thanks for the heads up.HH Ron

 

[dahut]

It is a school ground and there are kids there. If I was an officer or school grounds keeper I would run you off to, just for protection of the kids and property.

What IF the metal detecting guy was scouting out potential targets of kidnapping and I did nothing of it? Then next day a 12 year old girl or boy is kidnapped and I didn't follow the rules of the school "Only teachers and students on campus"?
I sure am not going to lose my job over some guy wanting to detect school grounds, and I am doing what I get paid to do, protect the kids & property. You know how much fuss would of been generated yet alone all the national news from a kidnapping from school grounds? ESPECIALLY if news got out that an officer seen the suspect metal detecting (or acting like he was detecting) but didn't ask them to leave?
Same goes for break in's, what if you did break into the school and I was an officer and I did't run you off the property. How would I explain that to my boss, "Well I seen the guy, he was detecting the grounds, and I thought he was harmless, but I guess he wasn't?".

You can't trust anyone in these times but yourself, and some can't even do that.
I don't see the officers here at fault, they are doing what they get paid to do, I would do the same thing if I was in their shoes, especially if no one but students or teachers are allowed on the campus. Most schools I have went to, that is the rule only students or teachers (employees) allowed on campus.

I can't tell you how many times I go to a park metal detecting and kids end up following me or want to dig for me, etc.. Kids are like cats, very curious. I was at a park in Hillsboro, MO yesterday evening and a 7 year old girl was asking me what I was looking for and was very intersted in recovering stuff I am detecting from the ground. The entire time my wife and I were thinking, "where is her parents? why are they not over here getting her?, etc...".

As it happens, it is spring break and there is not a soul there. Please don't trundle out the whole "safety of children" script. I've raised my own kids; they graduated from that very school. I get that part of it. I dont detect on school grounds when it is in session.

This wasn't Dahut the Ogre, drooling on his shoes and menacing innocent children.

It was Pudgy Dahut, middle-aged detectorist, beeping in the dirt for a few pennies. I couldn't climb the fence to get into the high school if I wanted to.
Oh yeah, I forgot that part - I was on the outside of the school proper, in an area accessible from the street. My truck was parked in plain sight, not 50 feet away.

What we have here is a case of overzealous cops, called out in a bristly heat to respond to what was a non-event. They were protecting the holy dirt of the school from the threat of a worn out, baby boomer hobbyist. Sorry, but there it is.

Nothing they could do then, but save each others face, fall back on their anointed policy and shove me back out on the street.

I'm not at fault in this one, friend.

 

[PaulMBurgess]

You for got to have coffee and donuts waiting for them.You can be sure the lady cop ran your plates even before you showed up.and knew who you were she had to act tough in front of her fellow peers or lose face.. And then again they say a cop is just one above the bad guys.Only difference is they wear a badge........

 

[itfchaos]

I'm not saying you are at fault, what I am saying is how is the officer suppose to know you are not a "bad" guy? It doesn't matter what you know about yourself or what you would and wouldn't do, the officers have no way of knowing who you are.
It doesn't matter if kids are there or not, you could be there "acting" like your doing something but in reality looking for the best way in and out, checking for security camera locations, etc.. I have seen a lot of overweight baby boomer type criminals... so you can't trundle out that excuse either. Criminals come in all shapes, sizes, age, sex, etc..
I don't go to my kids school cause I am sure I would get the same treament, I just consider it off limits as most schools will not let anyone other than students or employees on them.

I'm sorry I just don't see your side of the story. I still think the officers did the correct thing "especially" if there is a rule stating only students or employees on campus grounds. I know it sucks, but you have to look at it from their perspective as well. If something happens on their watch they are in trouble for it especially if they could of prevented it by asking the guy to leave the grounds.

A lot of people that "bash" police officers just don't understand that for the most part they are doing their jobs. I'm not saying every one of them is perfect, but neither are all metal detector folks.

 

[jmaryt]

i am just making a"general" statement about improper digging,and how it reflects on all
of us in the hobby!..you have "misconstrued" my meaning as i was responding to uncle willy's
remarks from the previous post..how YOU respond to your particular situation with responsible authority
figures is your "thing"..so to speak!..i will offer this though,and that is sometimes you have to pick your battles in life
so that being said,UNLESS the school is really old,and the "potential for "old" coins does indeed exist,i would ,IN MY VIEW
move on and work another school!..as the great satchel page once extolled!...."there ain't no shortage,just of the right kind!"

(h.h!)
j.t.

 

[grumpyolman]

"Well, thats nice of you Mr. H. But you cant be here, doing that sort of thing. Weve had break ins"

A quote from your original post. That's not a darned excuse. It's the real reason she showed up and the reason she asked for a back up. You are the one who determined it was an excuse and a cover all. Go listen to the 911 tapes and see how it was dispatched. I betcha it wasn't there's a man metal detecting and he shouldn't be there.

For an officer who knows your personally and asked you to leave, there was pressure from somebody put on her and then him to discourage detecting there. It wasn't because they were cops and wanted to bust somebody's rear. At least they referred to you as "Mr."

Glad school was on break. That reduced the threat considerably. However, when nobody's there it's the best time to do the burglary. Working officers have more work to do than to find enjoyment running somebody off the school property. That's called a PIA call, but it cannot be ignored once any kind of a complaint was made by even an anonymous person.

Sorry you experienced that situation. But it's also improper, IMHO, to go busting the cops chops for doing the job to which they were dispatched. It ain't the cop off the street. It's the School Board, the Chief of Police, the Mayor, some miserable politician who is behaving to insure re-election. HH guy...Jim

 

[dahut]

I'm not saying you are at fault, what I am saying is how is the officer suppose to know you are not a "bad" guy? It doesn't matter what you know about yourself or what you would and wouldn't do, the officers have no way of knowing who you are.

I utterly agree. From a law enforcement perspective, this was initially fraught with peril.

So, how do they know if Im a "bad guy?"
By asking me, of course.
By running my name on their system's data base (which they probably did at the outset, as they should.)
By doing that part of their job called investigating.
By not assuming anything, guilt or other wise. Remember that little phrase, "all persons are presumed innocent until proven guilty....?"
That was not done

So lets look at the facts.

PHASE I
- I was on school grounds detecting. Check.
- Cop drives by, sees my truck and gets suspicious. Check.
- This was not a call in, as I've already said, so she has a heightened sense of danger. Check.
- She runs my plates and learns who owns the truck. Check.
- She sees me approach. I'm happy to see her and say so. Check.
- I am not threatening and speak to her directly. Check.
- He comments: "Why are you here? You can't be here doing that. We've had break-ins..." Check.
- No other questions, investigations or comments are forthcoming. Check.
- Officer #2 arrives. Check.
- Discussion between them, back to me, out of my hearing. Check.
- "Get out." Check.

I did not escalate the situation. I am not a suspect in the break-ins they allege to have occurred... yet.
At the time it was just me talking to two cops, one of whom I know as a neighborhood local. No anger, no guilt.
Honest citizen doing his thing, blah, blah. But for a simple twist of fate, it would have been you.
Police response? GET OUT.

PHASE II
Were they right to give me the boot. Yes
Was I a threat? No. Was that ever discussed? No.
Did they do anything "citizen-like," such as ask me to help keep an eye on things while detecting? No.
Did they have to? No. Should they? Yes.
Did they suggest I speak to anyone in the school about permission? No.

Did they do what they were supposed to do? Yes.
Was it expedient, effective and cost efficient? Yes?
Did they control the "threat" appropriately. Yes?
Will their bosses, the school people and the rest of the citizenry be pleased, as you are? Undoubtedly.
Bottom line, they stuck to the policy and threw me out.

You are completely correct, when you say there are deeper things at work. In speaking with my club leadership, I find out now that it has happened all over the county, lately. Detectorists are _____________ (fill in the blank) and so must not be allowed in public schools. Local parks are also seeing enforcement and banishment.
This a change from the past.
Is it a change for the better? Not if you are a detectorist.

PHASE III
The greater point here is that but for simple twist of fate, there go you.
If we say nothing, then that is how we are treated.
If you don't feel just a little outrage at this, then that is good.
It wont smart as much when it IS you, next time.

 

[Stix]

Many members here have made the comment that schools are public property. It may be so - until the school district gives the police jurisdiction over the premises, as in this case. The cops, no matter how you feel about them, are entrusted with security at the school. They take that seriously. Some will say too seriously; I tend to agree. Regardless, they don't "evaluate" a chubby, middle aged guy detecting, nor do they have to. It's their call and they immediately think Columbine High and react. Finding me in a little back corner of the premises was worrisome. I get that.

I also get that I was in the right. But that is as far as it goes. The police don't have to accept that you are a righteous citizen; not any more. You don't have to be an actual problem - you just have to be where they don't think you should be. Jurisdiction, remember.

For them the solution is simple: forbid access. It is expedient, alleviates repercussions over "derelection of duty" and keeps us within the lines. If I had called out her supervisor, on the spot, do you think that person would side with me? The thought of doing such things never occurred to me, until I became a "problem."

P.S.
The police have essentially been given carte blanche, with high schools visible enough to rate their own public safety officer. That is a sad bit of 'zeitgeist', but the sheepizens we share our cities and towns with are convinced we need it. You and I, we independent minded detectorists, are a tiny microcosm - the rest fairly clamor for a cop to watch us and our kids. Safety in the modern age equals police monitoring and enforcement, viewed as small price to pay for security.
The cloud that accompanies that silver lining is that we must come to grips with the school - and our society - as a police state.

Makes you believe in George Orwell, dont it?

I wonder how the ACLU would view this?

You must remember its public no matter who controls it. They cannot keep you from the school. They can post hours but not forbid you. The do have to accept I am a righteous citizen. You do have to be an actual problem. Do not forget you have rights to many people have. Not on a soap box but they got this way due to to many not knowing the laws and giving them more play than they have.

 

[dahut]

Many members here have made the comment that schools are public property. It may be so - until the school district gives the police jurisdiction over the premises, as in this case. The cops, no matter how you feel about them, are entrusted with security at the school. They take that seriously. Some will say too seriously; I tend to agree. Regardless, they don't "evaluate" a chubby, middle aged guy detecting, nor do they have to. It's their call and they immediately think Columbine High and react. Finding me in a little back corner of the premises was worrisome. I get that.

I also get that I was in the right. But that is as far as it goes. The police don't have to accept that you are a righteous citizen; not any more. You don't have to be an actual problem - you just have to be where they don't think you should be. Jurisdiction, remember.

For them the solution is simple: forbid access. It is expedient, alleviates repercussions over "derelection of duty" and keeps us within the lines. If I had called out her supervisor, on the spot, do you think that person would side with me? The thought of doing such things never occurred to me, until I became a "problem."

P.S.
The police have essentially been given carte blanche, with high schools visible enough to rate their own public safety officer. That is a sad bit of 'zeitgeist', but the sheepizens we share our cities and towns with are convinced we need it. You and I, we independent minded detectorists, are a tiny microcosm - the rest fairly clamor for a cop to watch us and our kids. Safety in the modern age equals police monitoring and enforcement, viewed as small price to pay for security.
The cloud that accompanies that silver lining is that we must come to grips with the school - and our society - as a police state.

Makes you believe in George Orwell, dont it?

I wonder how the ACLU would view this?

You must remember its public no matter who controls it. They cannot keep you from the school. They can post hours but not forbid you. The do have to accept I am a righteous citizen. You do have to be an actual problem. Do not forget you have rights to many people have. Not on a soap box but they got this way due to to many not knowing the laws and giving them more play than they have.

How can I learn the law without asking them - giving them a chance to mislead? Is there somewhere I can look it up?

 

[Stix]

Many members here have made the comment that schools are public property. It may be so - until the school district gives the police jurisdiction over the premises, as in this case. The cops, no matter how you feel about them, are entrusted with security at the school. They take that seriously. Some will say too seriously; I tend to agree. Regardless, they don't "evaluate" a chubby, middle aged guy detecting, nor do they have to. It's their call and they immediately think Columbine High and react. Finding me in a little back corner of the premises was worrisome. I get that.

I also get that I was in the right. But that is as far as it goes. The police don't have to accept that you are a righteous citizen; not any more. You don't have to be an actual problem - you just have to be where they don't think you should be. Jurisdiction, remember.

For them the solution is simple: forbid access. It is expedient, alleviates repercussions over "derelection of duty" and keeps us within the lines. If I had called out her supervisor, on the spot, do you think that person would side with me? The thought of doing such things never occurred to me, until I became a "problem."

P.S.
The police have essentially been given carte blanche, with high schools visible enough to rate their own public safety officer. That is a sad bit of 'zeitgeist', but the sheepizens we share our cities and towns with are convinced we need it. You and I, we independent minded detectorists, are a tiny microcosm - the rest fairly clamor for a cop to watch us and our kids. Safety in the modern age equals police monitoring and enforcement, viewed as small price to pay for security.
The cloud that accompanies that silver lining is that we must come to grips with the school - and our society - as a police state.

Makes you believe in George Orwell, dont it?

I wonder how the ACLU would view this?

You must remember its public no matter who controls it. They cannot keep you from the school. They can post hours but not forbid you. The do have to accept I am a righteous citizen. You do have to be an actual problem. Do not forget you have rights to many people have. Not on a soap box but they got this way due to to many not knowing the laws and giving them more play than they have.

How can I learn the law without asking them - giving them a chance to mislead? Is there somewhere I can look it up?

Yea get a copy of local ordinance and laws from that area. Google it to find where they are.

 

[Musketeer]

I was physically attacked while feeding a neighbors goats. The old guy across the street would turn his dogs loose on kids. He turned them out on the girls across the street, not seeing me and their mother standing under my pecan tree. We had an argument over that. Then in a few days he came over to the neighbors and hit me in the face. I hurt him pretty bad and sent him to the hospital and I just hit him once.

He kept acting like he was going to pull a gun on me, but I knew I could out draw and out shoot him, so I didn't draw on him.

I called 911 and told them I had been attacked and I thought the guy had a weapon (he was a kitchen table gun dealer). The dispatcher heard me offer to use force if he pulled his gun.. Which is allowed under Texas law..

Well guess what, when the cops showed up, I was handcuffed, my truck parked on the street was searched and I was the bad guy.

The cops confiscated my handgun, which confiscation was in violation of state law, because I was not arrested. I "used the minimum amount of force" necessary to end the confrontation, and a threat to act "is the minimum amount" of force necessary, if it works. Even the detective who handled the case couldn't believe it.

The guy kept threatening me "through neighbors". So I went to all the people in the neighborhood and got signed statements that they had repeatedly asked him to keep his dogs up.

He died recently.

Just this week his widow sat in the window watching the dogs attack a young boy. I had my digging pick in my hand and ran for the dogs, who retreated to their yard, the old woman sat and watched.

We have complained repeatedly about the dogs, because letting them out violates local leash law.

But guess what? He was a code enforcement officer and "one of them", so he could do no wrong!!!

Musketeer

 

[Double T]

n/t

 

[Uncle Willy]

Yeah too many citizens bow and scrape instead of jumping up and down and raising hell. Cops will violate your rights if you give them half a chance and most aren't even fully familiar with the laws they are hired to enforce and will make some up as they go along.

Bill.

 

[Uncle Willy]

Yeah the courthouse unless they are posted online. The Board of Education has a list of rules and regulations or go to the office of the district that governs that particular school and look at their rules governing metal detecting on the schools or school in their district. What throws me - what has metal detecting got to do with break ins. Did they think you was going to use your tector as a hammer to bust out a window or knock a door down. They just pulled that one out of the hat probably because they couldn't think of a legit one. Would they have run you off had you been using a weed eater? And was everybody forbidden access regardless of activity?

Bill

 

[PennyFinder]

Talk to the Principal and ask him to draft a permission slip to show to those trigger happy control freaks.


PennyFinder