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stopped by police in town park
- Thread starter silvertrader
- Start date
norman maassey
New member
A few years ago Houston Metro was buying up land to build rail lines. One of these lines will run from U of Houston to down town. Out by U of Houston the rail car will make their turn to head back down town. So this area is 4 or 5 long and a half city block wide..The area is patrolled by Houston Metro Police.
There was about 5 or 6 hunters from the Houston Club hunting this area and it took all summer.to hunt it. It first if the ground was dry. The Metro Officers would pull up to where we were hunting. Then ask us what we what digging. We would Show and Tell. As they got ready to leave I would wish them a long an dull shift. One of the officer ask me the meaning of this and told her "if she had long dull shift most likely she had not come across any thing or any one that hurt her or any one around her. The Officer looked at me kind of Funny smiled, waved and drove off.It was like this for a few Month.
About mid summer we had worked our way to middle block of the five block area. There was homes that back this lots. In one of this homes lives a Sweet Lady I will say in her late 70's, but her grandchild is the Wicked Witch of East Houston.The Little Little Lady would give us donuts or eat ours with us and tell us stories about area 50 60's years earlier. The witch would show up about noon Sunday start yelling Her Grandmother owned the under ground right everything out there and She had called The Police.
The Same Houston Metro Police would show up, We would play Show and Tell, The Officers ask us to leave. We would say Good bye. The Officers would Tell us "See You all next Weekend!"
It went on like this for 3 or 4 weekends, By first Aug. we worked our way down the street and the Witch would not give us more trouble but the Little old Lady and Metro would see us out and stop an chat.
There was about 5 or 6 hunters from the Houston Club hunting this area and it took all summer.to hunt it. It first if the ground was dry. The Metro Officers would pull up to where we were hunting. Then ask us what we what digging. We would Show and Tell. As they got ready to leave I would wish them a long an dull shift. One of the officer ask me the meaning of this and told her "if she had long dull shift most likely she had not come across any thing or any one that hurt her or any one around her. The Officer looked at me kind of Funny smiled, waved and drove off.It was like this for a few Month.
About mid summer we had worked our way to middle block of the five block area. There was homes that back this lots. In one of this homes lives a Sweet Lady I will say in her late 70's, but her grandchild is the Wicked Witch of East Houston.The Little Little Lady would give us donuts or eat ours with us and tell us stories about area 50 60's years earlier. The witch would show up about noon Sunday start yelling Her Grandmother owned the under ground right everything out there and She had called The Police.
The Same Houston Metro Police would show up, We would play Show and Tell, The Officers ask us to leave. We would say Good bye. The Officers would Tell us "See You all next Weekend!"
It went on like this for 3 or 4 weekends, By first Aug. we worked our way down the street and the Witch would not give us more trouble but the Little old Lady and Metro would see us out and stop an chat.
Norman, good story. How much you wanna make a bet that:
a) if you guys had asked "Houstan Metro", before the start of the project "can we metal detect there?", that you might not have found someone to tell you "no"? You know the drill: they'd have to put it past their legal dept, etc..... Yet as you can see, and as with most old town urban demolition sites, ...... when you just help yourself after 5pm worker cut-out-time, that ..... you're usually ok.
b) that a lot of guys, upon getting grief from the grandchild lady you ran into, would have gone down to city hall or wherever, attemping to get their permission in writing to wave in front of this trouble-maker. And then you can guess what would happen, they'd end up getting a "no" from city hall or wherever, thus ending all detecting. Instead, merely avoiding *just* that one busy-body, as you guys did, was the best solution.
We had this happen in my town: The local newspaper ran a blurb that the old high school (blt. 1919) was going to be totally rennovated. Rennovations would include scraping out the grass inner court where ..... for 70+ yrs., hundreds of kids had sat daily eating their lunches. As our local metal detecting club salivated over the detecting prospects, there were those that thought our best course of action was to go down to the high school district office, to arrange permission ahead of time. Others of us thought "nonsense, just wait till after 5pm, un-do the bailing wire on the temp-fencing, and help yourself". The consensus was sharply divided between the skittish type, and the "help yourself" type. In the end, you can guess who got the silver, and those that sat at home.
a) if you guys had asked "Houstan Metro", before the start of the project "can we metal detect there?", that you might not have found someone to tell you "no"? You know the drill: they'd have to put it past their legal dept, etc..... Yet as you can see, and as with most old town urban demolition sites, ...... when you just help yourself after 5pm worker cut-out-time, that ..... you're usually ok.
b) that a lot of guys, upon getting grief from the grandchild lady you ran into, would have gone down to city hall or wherever, attemping to get their permission in writing to wave in front of this trouble-maker. And then you can guess what would happen, they'd end up getting a "no" from city hall or wherever, thus ending all detecting. Instead, merely avoiding *just* that one busy-body, as you guys did, was the best solution.
We had this happen in my town: The local newspaper ran a blurb that the old high school (blt. 1919) was going to be totally rennovated. Rennovations would include scraping out the grass inner court where ..... for 70+ yrs., hundreds of kids had sat daily eating their lunches. As our local metal detecting club salivated over the detecting prospects, there were those that thought our best course of action was to go down to the high school district office, to arrange permission ahead of time. Others of us thought "nonsense, just wait till after 5pm, un-do the bailing wire on the temp-fencing, and help yourself". The consensus was sharply divided between the skittish type, and the "help yourself" type. In the end, you can guess who got the silver, and those that sat at home.
Dwayne2010
Member
The hwole thing is rediculous. One over zealous officer and your done for. How much are night vision goggles going for? LOL
MNCoinhunter
Active member
larryk56 said:
The possible downside to a one-cop town is that he may have nothing better to do than bust your chops. We don't even have our one cop anymore, he was budgeted-out. We still have our county sheriff sub-station though....but they only want to know what I have found...
Jackpine Savage
Active member
That would [size=large]Never[/size] fly in Michigan! What state is this?
Tom Z
Tom Z
Jackpine Savage said:
Commie state of ILLINOIS of course they are only doing it for the mushroom hunters protection they are getting an ear full about it too.Been a very good year down here for Morel hunting but weeds are getting high I got enough put away till next spring.
norman maassey
New member
Believe it or not Houston Metro Does not Care Just as long as there is no Demo work going on. I have hunted next door to bull dozier and front loaders. Picked up some good leads from them.
I left Houston Last Aug due to my wife's health and I damd sure Miss the Hunting.
I left Houston Last Aug due to my wife's health and I damd sure Miss the Hunting.
Dwayne2010
Member
Here is a thought. I wonder if a course could be offered on metal detecting etiquette. A small fee paid to carry the license which authorizes the person to metal detect in any public place based on the assumption that said course teaches the person proper techniques etc to remove a target and minimize any damage. It could be produced upon demand. Certain privileges would be had to the barer of the license and the fees collected from the licenses sold, used for any reclamation costs and provided to each municipality(we call them this in Canada) or county(states have counties?). In a sense, we would be paying a user fee. But, the towns would love it because they would see some small amounts of cash come from users. Just a thought. Everything comes down to money in the end.
We have hunting and fishing licenses up here and for the hunting, you need to take whats called CORE. (Conservation Outdoor Recreation Education. Every hunter requires it if your a resident here in my Province. The assumption is that, with some education, proper hunter etiquette can be assumed to be used at all times.
What do you guys all think?
We have hunting and fishing licenses up here and for the hunting, you need to take whats called CORE. (Conservation Outdoor Recreation Education. Every hunter requires it if your a resident here in my Province. The assumption is that, with some education, proper hunter etiquette can be assumed to be used at all times.
What do you guys all think?
Once that was in place for a few towns it would work.. For many it would close the door to detecting......... Better to leave it like it is. A hobby activity that has no license required.
What about schools etc..City can not give the ok for school ground detecting. Board of Education owns the property........... were better off just going out detecting where we can, and leave the license to other things........
License restrict things more than they open them up.. For an example You can detect but you can't dig a hole..You can detect May to September but not the rest of the time.. You can beach hunt but not while swimming season is open.. The above come from the restrictions on a county park we now have to have a permit to detect in.. ......... See what I mean...
What about schools etc..City can not give the ok for school ground detecting. Board of Education owns the property........... were better off just going out detecting where we can, and leave the license to other things........
License restrict things more than they open them up.. For an example You can detect but you can't dig a hole..You can detect May to September but not the rest of the time.. You can beach hunt but not while swimming season is open.. The above come from the restrictions on a county park we now have to have a permit to detect in.. ......... See what I mean...
Elton is right. There just simply isn't enough persons in this hobby, to have a license program. And there's just too many variables, where ........ no two persons detect the same, have the same objective, hunt sites, etc.... You know, some people ply the sand boxes and tanbark boxes. Others are big-game hunters and ply the turf for deep silver. Other's are content to go for all the shallow stuff in turf, angling for modern jewelry, etc.... There's just no one single "definition" to our hobbies, to our abilities, etc... For example, I know of guys who will swear that they cover their holes perfectly, leave no trace, etc... Yet I can go behind them and see that they aren't using a catch mat, aren't stomping down the plug with all their force & weight, don't make sure that a root ball remains intact (so that the grass doesn't die, etc....). And if you were to ask them to their face about this, they'd insist their holes are perfect. No amount of education, etc... is going to cover this never-ending judgement call. And do you really think you'd want some govt. agency to have the word "holes" on their mind anyhow? Heck, the second they hear a word like that is the second they'd laugh at anyone for suggesting a license to do such a thing.
The govt. has enough problems, expense, headaches, etc... right now. The fastest way to get a "no" to all detecting, is to suggest such a thing.
The govt. has enough problems, expense, headaches, etc... right now. The fastest way to get a "no" to all detecting, is to suggest such a thing.
Muddyshoes
New member
1. Your ability (and the ability of others) to metal detect an area has a lot to do with the relationships you build and maintain with your community and/or public service folks like cops, groundworkers, even neighbors of parks or areas you hunt, as well as the relationships previous metal detecting folks have had with those same people.
2. The reasons places are CLOSED to metal detecting are because of unfilled holes, damages to ground, bushes, grass, etc, disrespect for public servants who aren't familiar with the hobby, i.e. being rude to cops when they're only doing their job, and being rude to bystanders, neighbors. Sometimes an angry old codger or cuss just complains, ultimately resulting in an area closed off, but politeness and a strategy working with city hall or the local law enforcement department could reopen it if it's not against an ordinance.
If it's more important for you to be right and show a cop that he's wrong, but lose the ability to ever search that area again because you were rude or abusive, then was it really worth it?
3. You are an ambassador for the rest of us who come after you. If we are kicked out of an area, we know there's a good chance you were one of those people in point 2 above. The way you act reflects on *ALL* of us in this hobby.
4. Most of all.. DON'T LET YOUR POLITICAL VIEWS OF GOVERNMENT affect how you deal with government officials. It's only going to get you angry and cause you to say or do something that will invariably come back to you in a bad way, *AND* it will only hurt our hobby.
Really, just be civil.
2. The reasons places are CLOSED to metal detecting are because of unfilled holes, damages to ground, bushes, grass, etc, disrespect for public servants who aren't familiar with the hobby, i.e. being rude to cops when they're only doing their job, and being rude to bystanders, neighbors. Sometimes an angry old codger or cuss just complains, ultimately resulting in an area closed off, but politeness and a strategy working with city hall or the local law enforcement department could reopen it if it's not against an ordinance.
If it's more important for you to be right and show a cop that he's wrong, but lose the ability to ever search that area again because you were rude or abusive, then was it really worth it?
3. You are an ambassador for the rest of us who come after you. If we are kicked out of an area, we know there's a good chance you were one of those people in point 2 above. The way you act reflects on *ALL* of us in this hobby.
4. Most of all.. DON'T LET YOUR POLITICAL VIEWS OF GOVERNMENT affect how you deal with government officials. It's only going to get you angry and cause you to say or do something that will invariably come back to you in a bad way, *AND* it will only hurt our hobby.
Really, just be civil.
Dwayne2010
Member
Muddyshoes said:
I agree with you Muddyshoes. I am of the philosophy that I treat others with respect, until they disrespect me, at which point I try and maintain some civility. Having not started this thread, but having been confronted by an officer, who, was very unfriendly, I draw the line for better or worse. They work for us after all and need to be following the rules. So, the A personality cop, acting outside of his authority, needs to be dealt with. And whether that occurs by educating the guy/girl in the field, or behind doors at the detachment, it needs to be addressed. I don't give a rats butt who you are, if I am not breaking the law, then mind your own dang business. I am sure that because I have expressed my views, I will be ostracized, that is fine, but I won't roll over and take it without a fight. Its because of this that the A personality cop gets away with so much. Nobody stands up to them. I don't call expressing ones rights as 'being disrespectful' unless of course, one is a complete butt in the one expresses ones rights. Nobody wins then. But educating and enquiring upon confrontation should be done. Know the local laws becuase again, Knowledge is power!
Muddyshoes
New member
And I agree with you, Dwayne.
It's just that when it's a battle between a cop and a civilian who is doing something the cop doesn't feel is right, arguing or standing your ground right then and there is not the best way to handle it. Police, like every organization, have a structure. If you got bad service in a supermarket, you wouldn't stand there arguing with the cashier...or at least you shouldn't. Politely ask to speak to the person's supervisor. In police terms, that's a supervisor or watch commander. When the watch commander arrives on scene, he'll first confer with the cop while looking you up and down, and then come over to hear your side of the story.
Take off your headphones, rest your detector on the ground or stand it next to something. Don't try to hide your digging tools. Cops WILL look and see you're hiding something making you seem even MORE suspicious. Don't stand there with arms crossed and an angry expression, even if you're burning up inside. Be polite, be professional. Remember, this guy probably doesn't want to speak to you either...he just wants a quick, peaceful resolution to this situation. After talking with him, get his card. You will either be permitted to continue searching or you may be asked to leave. If you can keep searching, you have the officer's card for reference in the event you are stopped in the future.
Notice I'm not saying you should roll over or NOT stand up for your rights. I'm suggesting that you pick your battles carefully and wage them politely and confidently. That way you'll be perceived as a concerned citizen rather than a nuisance.
City hall or courthouse or other venue may be next if you really want to pursue this. At each level you'll have conducted yourself properly, have the names of everyone you spoke with and when it comes down to it, it just may be a decision by someone high up in local government who will ask the previous person, "So, what do you think of this guy." If you've been an a-hole, then chances are you're not going to win this one. But if you've held your ground and conducted yourself the way you would want to be spoken to, then there's a good chance you'll be back digging up barber quarters before you know it.
None of us like being kicked off a property, especially when we're having a 'hot' day. But it's just the reality of what we do. And again, please remember that how you conduct yourself, especially with the cops, affects how WE...your fellow hobbyists, will be treated later. And I don't want you getting ALL the silver...
- Ron
It's just that when it's a battle between a cop and a civilian who is doing something the cop doesn't feel is right, arguing or standing your ground right then and there is not the best way to handle it. Police, like every organization, have a structure. If you got bad service in a supermarket, you wouldn't stand there arguing with the cashier...or at least you shouldn't. Politely ask to speak to the person's supervisor. In police terms, that's a supervisor or watch commander. When the watch commander arrives on scene, he'll first confer with the cop while looking you up and down, and then come over to hear your side of the story.
Take off your headphones, rest your detector on the ground or stand it next to something. Don't try to hide your digging tools. Cops WILL look and see you're hiding something making you seem even MORE suspicious. Don't stand there with arms crossed and an angry expression, even if you're burning up inside. Be polite, be professional. Remember, this guy probably doesn't want to speak to you either...he just wants a quick, peaceful resolution to this situation. After talking with him, get his card. You will either be permitted to continue searching or you may be asked to leave. If you can keep searching, you have the officer's card for reference in the event you are stopped in the future.
Notice I'm not saying you should roll over or NOT stand up for your rights. I'm suggesting that you pick your battles carefully and wage them politely and confidently. That way you'll be perceived as a concerned citizen rather than a nuisance.
City hall or courthouse or other venue may be next if you really want to pursue this. At each level you'll have conducted yourself properly, have the names of everyone you spoke with and when it comes down to it, it just may be a decision by someone high up in local government who will ask the previous person, "So, what do you think of this guy." If you've been an a-hole, then chances are you're not going to win this one. But if you've held your ground and conducted yourself the way you would want to be spoken to, then there's a good chance you'll be back digging up barber quarters before you know it.
None of us like being kicked off a property, especially when we're having a 'hot' day. But it's just the reality of what we do. And again, please remember that how you conduct yourself, especially with the cops, affects how WE...your fellow hobbyists, will be treated later. And I don't want you getting ALL the silver...
- Ron
Dwayne2010
Member
well said Muddyshoes. I am not the best with words, but I see the wisdom in your words. Sometimes, a person flies off the handle and I have seen the negative effects of that. Anyways, great thread on this topic!
Muddy-shoes, I'm not so sure that I agree with the part of # 2 of your post: that places are becoming off limits d/t holes, damage, etc.... Yes this might be the reason in some places. But a lot of times. I've heard this reason given by cops, desk clerks at city hall, maintenance people etc... just to deflect the "but why?" question. And when you press them for actual incidents, none are forth-coming. For this reason, I think this "holes" things get bandied around as the easiest come-back answer by authorities we might ask, when ...... in fact .... it's just a mental image they have, and ...... afterall, you asked. The md'r is left scratching his head, assuming that in the past, irresponsbible md'rs "left holes".
But I do totally agree with your point #1: A lot of times, where we Can and Can't detect, has absolutely nothing to do with laws, AT ALL! Believe it or not, how we conduct ourselves, has a lot to do with it. How you appear, etc..... As an example of this psychology, I had a friend once, back in my college days, who was 20 yrs. old. The drinking age in CA is 21. He boasted that he could get into any bar in town. At first, I assumed he had a fake ID (which was popular amongst under-age high schoolers, etc... at that time). But he assured me he didn't have a fake ID. So I asked, "well then, how do you do it?" His answer was "I just walk right in, with a big smile, like I own the place" You see: He had figured out, correctly, that the only people the bouncers at the door stop, are people who look like they're trying to avoid scrutiny, look like they have something to hide, try to skirt as far away as they can from the bouncer's gaze, etc.... So my friend would just walk right in with a big smile, making direct eye contact, and he never got carded!
Detecting is sort of the same psychology: Oh sure, use discretion and don't go at high noon on lawn mowing day, or go during an archie convention or whatever, but once there, if you're continually looking over your shoulder, and ..... giving the "oh no" look to passing cops or anyone else eyeing you, then you just "set yourself up" for the question in the observer's mind: "I wonder what he's doing?"
I know you didn't exactly put it this way, but in essense, you do point out that it has nothing to do with actual rules, but rather, "relationships", which are, afterall, how you conduct yourself, how you appear, etc....
I know, it's pretty hard to portray that "presence", when you've simply "helped yourself" to a park somewhere, right? So the subconscious continually surveys the horizon, making eye contact with every passer-by (the old, you know "gee, I wonder if he's watching me" or "gee, I wonder if that lady will complain" type look). And the passerbys also subconsciously take note of that, and presto, the "gee, just exactly what is he doing" psychology takes over.
But I do totally agree with your point #1: A lot of times, where we Can and Can't detect, has absolutely nothing to do with laws, AT ALL! Believe it or not, how we conduct ourselves, has a lot to do with it. How you appear, etc..... As an example of this psychology, I had a friend once, back in my college days, who was 20 yrs. old. The drinking age in CA is 21. He boasted that he could get into any bar in town. At first, I assumed he had a fake ID (which was popular amongst under-age high schoolers, etc... at that time). But he assured me he didn't have a fake ID. So I asked, "well then, how do you do it?" His answer was "I just walk right in, with a big smile, like I own the place" You see: He had figured out, correctly, that the only people the bouncers at the door stop, are people who look like they're trying to avoid scrutiny, look like they have something to hide, try to skirt as far away as they can from the bouncer's gaze, etc.... So my friend would just walk right in with a big smile, making direct eye contact, and he never got carded!
Detecting is sort of the same psychology: Oh sure, use discretion and don't go at high noon on lawn mowing day, or go during an archie convention or whatever, but once there, if you're continually looking over your shoulder, and ..... giving the "oh no" look to passing cops or anyone else eyeing you, then you just "set yourself up" for the question in the observer's mind: "I wonder what he's doing?"
I know you didn't exactly put it this way, but in essense, you do point out that it has nothing to do with actual rules, but rather, "relationships", which are, afterall, how you conduct yourself, how you appear, etc....
I know, it's pretty hard to portray that "presence", when you've simply "helped yourself" to a park somewhere, right? So the subconscious continually surveys the horizon, making eye contact with every passer-by (the old, you know "gee, I wonder if he's watching me" or "gee, I wonder if that lady will complain" type look). And the passerbys also subconsciously take note of that, and presto, the "gee, just exactly what is he doing" psychology takes over.
Dwayne2010
Member
Until last week and being approached by the cp, the only thing that I would watch out for was a cougar or bear coming up behind me. Now its, definitely, gee, I wonder if the cop that talked to me last, will be there watching. Such a shame.
Muddyshoes
New member
And speaking of holes... raccoons, possum, armadillos and even squirrels during nut and berry season can dig pretty nasty holes in a park, which no doubt probably get attributed to people with metal detectors, and no matter how nice you ask 'em, critters WON'T fill in their holes...with the exception of cats, but they usually leave something else in them. You can tell critter holes as they are usually dug in at an angle.
Still, a park I was at a couple weeks ago had a bunch of critter holes and I filled in a bunch of them just because I didn't want people to think I was the one leaving these holes open!
And yeah, Tom, that's pretty much what I was getting at. It's about relationships more than it is rules. I know for a fact on a number of occasions when stopped by law enforcement that they let me continue just because I was nice and was taking extreme care to leave the ground as I found it.
Another thing that can sometimes help is to show the groundskeeper or even the law enforcement guy the 'junk' pocket of your apron with trash that you've found. If they see that you are making a conscious effort to make the park or area cleaner, then that may help in their decision to let you stay. I simply explain that while I'm searching, I pick up any garbage lying around, even paper or wrappers and such. This way you become an asset to them. What groundskeeper doesn't want help picking up trash around their park? They don't have to know that 90% of that junk was underground and not visible.
Still, a park I was at a couple weeks ago had a bunch of critter holes and I filled in a bunch of them just because I didn't want people to think I was the one leaving these holes open!
And yeah, Tom, that's pretty much what I was getting at. It's about relationships more than it is rules. I know for a fact on a number of occasions when stopped by law enforcement that they let me continue just because I was nice and was taking extreme care to leave the ground as I found it.
Another thing that can sometimes help is to show the groundskeeper or even the law enforcement guy the 'junk' pocket of your apron with trash that you've found. If they see that you are making a conscious effort to make the park or area cleaner, then that may help in their decision to let you stay. I simply explain that while I'm searching, I pick up any garbage lying around, even paper or wrappers and such. This way you become an asset to them. What groundskeeper doesn't want help picking up trash around their park? They don't have to know that 90% of that junk was underground and not visible.