stopped by police in town park

[totcohand]

Read:

"You and The Police" by Boston T. Party

You would have known EXACTLY what to say.

Excellent author! Molon Labe is an outstanding one too!

 

[Prep1957]

Good job Silvertrader for standing up for you rights they backed off when heard your brother was a lawyer.I have my lawyers card on me at all times and just hand it to them.I am trained in Right of Way Law and trust me you can due more to a city than they can do to you because they passed so many stupid laws.For over 30 years I have heard comments from all of the hobby members to be polite,be nice well for over 30 years it did not work you turned your backside and more sites are banned now than ever now is the time to be a metal detector tea party and fight back Hunters,Trappers,Fisherman have learned you have to fight back..It has worked for me I do not even get botherd anymore all the police,mayors just leave me alone because they know I will use there own laws against them.Take pictures when you get to a site,horse shoe pits,volley ball courts,baseball diamonds,caretakers,city workers driving on the grass,golfer practicing making divits then show the officer your pictures and that these other hobbies cause more damage then look him in the eye and say if I cannot do my hobby I will make it so this park will be shut down or I will win a discrimination suit against the city this decision rest with you right now officer what do you want to do.

 

[Terry Soloman]

Good job Silvertrader for standing up for you rights they backed off when heard your brother was a lawyer.I have my lawyers card on me at all times and just hand it to them.I am trained in Right of Way Law and trust me you can due more to a city than they can do to you because they passed so many stupid laws.For over 30 years I have heard comments from all of the hobby members to be polite,be nice well for over 30 years it did not work you turned your backside and more sites are banned now than ever now is the time to be a metal detector tea party and fight back Hunters,Trappers,Fisherman have learned you have to fight back..It has worked for me I do not even get botherd anymore all the police,mayors just leave me alone because they know I will use there own laws against them.Take pictures when you get to a site,horse shoe pits,volley ball courts,baseball diamonds,caretakers,city workers driving on the grass,golfer practicing making divits then show the officer your pictures and that these other hobbies cause more damage then look him in the eye and say if I cannot do my hobby I will make it so this park will be shut down or I will win a discrimination suit against the city this decision rest with you right now officer what do you want to do.

Dude! Take your meds and calm down. Hell, I'm ready to "leave you alone" with or without a lawyer! For God sake man, get a girlfriend. "Metal Detector Tea Party?" Please, for my sake and for the sake of all other metal detectorists, get another hobby and take your lawyers with you. Why is it that 95-percent of the time, it is people like you that get hasselled in our public parks (cue "Final Jeopardy" music here)? What is, because angry idiots draw other angry idiots Alex? Using the tactics of a Five-year-old (Why can't I mess up the park too - They're doing it!) is just imbecilic. I fully expect nothing less than a full blown, angry and rambling response to this post. Sure hope I'm disappointed..

 

[Larry (IL)]

It is unfortunate that people like Barry and Silvertrader don't see themselves as the problem, they seem to think they are the cure. I have never heard of a city park being closed to metal detecting because of a courteous detectorist that has said, sorry officer, I will move along.

 

[Prep1957]

You are right Larry I do not see myself as a problem.As a matter a fact I see there is a lot more areas in your neck of the woods that used to be open in the early 80's that are not open now, remember I hunted in about 4 drive from Ottawa so I know what I am talking about so why are these places shut down I am sure you and your members did nothing but they got shut down anyway do you know why?have you ever tried to find out?If you found out you were being wronged would you do anything to protect yourself or your hobby?does your club have a lawyer,legal fund?.Also I am not trying to try and find a cure for anything not for the hobby,not for you,not for any detecting club I just want to enjoy my time off with my hobbies.Remember I do this for a living I spend about 60 hours a week locating utilities for a fortune 100 company and have been doing this for 34 years and in constant contact with City Police,Fire,Water Department,Gas and get along with them fine.I do not cuss or get mad I have been trained to respond to public and media questions.I am trained to know the law you should be too as should every other detectorist out there.You defend your hobbies your way I will defend them my way.The Idea of a girl friend just would not work my wife of 33 years just would not go for it.I have trained 40 to 50 people through the years in this great hobby I hunt alone because my dad passed away and it is easier to get new areas to hunt that way.As far as 95 percent getting hassled it is more like 99 percent because I do it on purpose when I hear that from a friend he got told to leave a public park that park goes on my list I start doing recon with pictures,study the local laws of that city and county then contact my lawyer I when I am ready I hunt that park alone and wait to see what happens.I think one of the greatest threats to this hobby like most hobbies is the threat from within.Let me explain.It starts by another detectorist saying that while hunting you should never use a shovel to recover in a public park and you get two or three other detectorist to agree with you and you and the new group condemn/and pass judgement with any other detectorist.Then you and your members decide that a plug should not be bigger than 12 inches and no deeper than 6 inches then you let your views become the rule of your new group and everyone should follow your new groups example.Then you go to the local government,historical group,city and tell them that your group is the best and are trained in all the proper ways of metal detecting and recovery and implant in the minds of the City /Government that they can relax as long as you let our group in because they are trained in the proper standard of detecting just ask for the club membership card if you are unsure when you see someone hunting at the park.To help the city we will donate X amount of dollars and to make it easier for the city to see that the new group is the one properly hunting the park they will be clean shaven,using only whites metal detector,with carbon coated diggers in shape of a Teddy Bear wearing a red hat.Now you know how Illinois Government Works.Not one of us was with silvertrader when the incident happened, not one us knows what really happened,but I was the only one that tried to show him that there are better ways to handle the government.You all wasted no time in attacking within. Attacking silvertrader saying what he did was wrong are you sure?People and Governments threaten and control people by telling them that they are going to take away so you submit. I understand at times that is the only option that you have and I have had to retreat on more than one occasion.Silvertrader,I am with you,this 53 year old has a lot off tricks up his sleeve because of a life of hard knocks do not fear the group they are only scared people.

 

[Terry Soloman]

Well, at least I wasn't disappointed.

 

[jmaryt]

sometimes in life you have to pick your battles!
i agree with this analogy..you do the hobby a disservice
IF you DON'T "move along" so to speak!..there ARE plenty of places to hunt!
if they tell ya to pack up,and go,DO IT!..it is the RIGHT thing to do!..just sayin!

(h.h.!)
j.t.

 

[Dan-Pa.]

Just remember when a citizen makes a complaint an officer must respond and yes complainant doesn't even have to give their name.. Retired Pa. State Police with 30 years of service and now a detectorist for 20 years so been on both sides of the coin..I realize there are both good and bad cops and detectorists as well. We may be splitting hairs here but parks are public land during their open hours and yes digging a hole can be considered damaging public property.. What I usually do is see the head groundskeeper and get his name and keep a list in wallet..Common courtesy can go a long way and yes as a detectorists it has ruined my day and as a cop taken up my time because some citizen peeping out of a window has nothing better to do and myself could be serving the public instead of answering some screwy compaint..

 

[Prep1957]

sometimes in life you have to pick your battles!
i agree with this analogy..you do the hobby a disservice
IF you DON'T "move along" so to speak!..there ARE plenty of places to hunt!
if they tell ya to pack up,and go,DO IT!..it is the RIGHT thing to do!..just sayin!

(h.h.!)
j.t.

Did that for over 25 years did not work so well with no positive results.Lets start with an example I was the Master in charge of a Masonic Lodge and a small park that was owned by the lodge that was only park in town.I was not out hunting that day but a call from one the guys I knew said that they were at the park and a county officer was booting them off.I went down to the park talked to the officer kindly and told him that we had no problem with coin hunters.He said they still had to go because of the damage they were doing.No matter how many times I tried to explain to the officer that this was a private park and that they had my permission he was not buying it finally a second officer showed up and made the first officer leave.I asked the officer why the other officer was the way he was he told me he was a history buff and thought we metal detectorist were stealing history and that he felt the same way but legally there was nothing they could today and wished me a good day.

This happened 4 weeks ago I was going to take a drive to a park about hour and a half away called a friend if he would like to join me.He said he would but the park was shut down to metal detecting that he was asked to leave 2 times.I knew the Police Chief in that town called him and asked him whats up with that.He told me that he new nothing about that but he would call me back let me know.He called back and told me that they had hired a couple of part time officers one was a full time guard at nuclear plant and that he talked to him to go ahead let us hunt problem solved.

It does not hurt to see if the guy that asked you to leave really had the right to ask you to leave.I did what you are doing for 25 years now that the kids are gone and I have the resource to fight back.I am doing this for me not the hobby,not for any club,or any person and having a lot of fun doing it.My most recent crusade was banning of morel mushroom hunting during turkey season I do not know what idiot thought that one up of course this was all done to protect the mushroom hunter who have been doing this hundreds of years.Of course the mushroom hunters were pushed aside because they do not pay for licenses,buy equipment,spend money,have banquets,donate money to the right cause.Sound familiar

 

[Prep1957]

Well, at least I wasn't disappointed.

Truely my pleasure,the squeaky wheel always gets the grease.American Beach Detecting Congress? interesting will have to check that one out .

 

[jmaryt]

i understand your point of view!..it is noted,however with an abundance of
sites to 'hit" in my area,it's really not worth it for me to tangle as**oles with anyone over this!
i don't want to get all f**ked up over it,and see previously mentioned reason!..besides,
if they tell me to move on,i just reappear in a couple of weeks,and GENERALLY get left alone!
disappear behind some trees,or somethin'..just sayin!

(h.h.!)
j.t.

 

[Elton]

Like Dan.. Both sides of the "coin" so to speak. defacing city property can be as simple as digging a hole to retrieve a coin ......

Parks are a city ( Chartered) owned property designated for public use in a matter set forth by the Park committee, and or City Council committees in many towns, Townships, and cities. While it is in a sense Public Properly, ( Tax Payer funded) in a sense, it is owned by the city and private property open to the public..So it isn't vacant land for anyone to use at their will............and for that matter, vacant land is ordinated for use too.......(School property is owned by the School Board of Education) and is not truly public land either. So it is a defined line on who says what you can and can not do on the property.......

Everything is governed by City Ordinances, and or State.........

You can not win challenging the Police... even if wrong, their right at that moment. You can be cited for failure to comply, trespassing, or any other number of violations. Just agree, move on, and come back another day if you are questioned, and told to leave.........

Like all things. If 50 people are detecting a park, holes are uncovered, and the area starts to look like it's being abused..you will be facing the local Police or Park Rangers.. If a Hoodlum gang decided to exercise their rights ( Yes they have same public park rights to be there) to use the park, and things got out of hand, ( Fights, Drinking, Disorder) you would want and expect the police to stop it from happening. you would want the police to keep tabs.............. no different really for we detectorists..if it offends someone then it is addressed. Consult with council and or Mayors ( City Manager) for further discussions of what you can and can not do in a city park........ Explain you were asked to leave, ask why, and if it isn't banned you will be able to return. The word will be passed down to the police department......... Just something for all of us to think about. Not saying it's right or wrong.. But it is how it is...

What is wrong is if a citizen approches you and tells you to leave. They do not have that right, and you can call the police and have that addressed , right then and there. Just know what your doing is right and legal before you make that call........

Just remember when the poice get a call they have to respond and see what is going on. A good attitude when they approach you goes a long way.. They may agree your doing nothing wrong..and simply say " we got a call" and we are checking it out..........have a nice day. You get crappy start spouting off you pay their salary, and this is public and I can do what I want too.. It will not turn out good for you I promise........At the least, a disorderly conduct charge will stick..

 

[Dwayne2010]

Like the original poster of this thread, I had a similar incident. I agree and disagree with what I read here. On one hand, people are giving the Poster hell for his attitude back at the officer. Well, I have to say, one of the most difficult things to do, is respond in kindness when a civil servant gives you aggressive tone and bad body language. Until your put in a position like this, you can't comment and give a guy crap for how he handled the officer. Hind sight is 20 20.
People need to understand the law on this. Whether there is a law on this cause from what I see, there isn't one. If there is no local law governing this activity and it doesn't fall on any federal law, then the officer needs to be politely advised of same. I know that unless I have clear authority, I don;t act and I have no problem telling a complainant that no law exists and therefor, I won't be taking any action.

Anyone seen a aerator that takes 1000's of plugs out of the ground? Well, what we do is a lot less evasive and at least we take out the garbage and fill in the holes. How about the kids playing soccer that dig of the grass or the guy swinging a golf club that removes swaths of grass?

We have a right to use a park like anyone else! The so called damage is temporary and grows back.
This is where I feel that we need legal advice and we carry this legal advice around with us like a permit or drivers license. I shouldn't have to worry about being arrested or accosted in a frigging public park for enjoying my hobby. Or, any other public place for that matter. KNOWLEDGE IS POWER. Creeping around at night is fine for those night hawks, but why should I have to hide to enjoy a non-criminal activity!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Dwayne,

you say:

"Creeping around at night is fine for those night hawks, but why should I have to hide to enjoy a non-criminal activity!"

The reason we sometime have to be discreet (I'll use that word, instead of "hide") is that we are unfortunately in a hobby that draws the stares of curious onlookers (you gotta admit, us swinging the "geigercounter thingy" looks odd). And as you admit, there is a sometimes a knee-jerk connotation or assumption (no matter how wrong), that you might leave a hole, right?

So therefore sometimes it IS important for us to go at odd times, off-hours, etc.... Because just like nose-picking: it may be "legal", yet, for pete's sake, you use some discretion when nose-picking, right? So because our hobby admittedly draws stares, and has assumptions people might make, I think this "non-criminal" activity is very much better to be done out-of-site, when possible. This is why I hunt parks late towards dusk, if not outright at night nowadays. Not because I think I'm doing anything illegal or "criminal", but because I don't want to have any busy-bodies make the assumption that I am. And the less I am seen, the less busy-bodies I'll run into.

Out of site, is out of mind, just the legal activity of nose-picking. I wish it wasn't that way Dwayne. But I just don't envision any "metal detecting legal here, go ahead and dig" signs to be posted on parks in my town, anytime soon.

 

[Dwayne2010]

Dwayne,

you say:

"Creeping around at night is fine for those night hawks, but why should I have to hide to enjoy a non-criminal activity!"

The reason we sometime have to be discreet (I'll use that word, instead of "hide") is that we are unfortunately in a hobby that draws the stares of curious onlookers (you gotta admit, us swinging the "geigercounter thingy" looks odd). And as you admit, there is a sometimes a knee-jerk connotation or assumption (no matter how wrong), that you might leave a hole, right?

So therefore sometimes it IS important for us to go at odd times, off-hours, etc.... Because just like nose-picking: it may be "legal", yet, for pete's sake, you use some discretion when nose-picking, right? So because our hobby admittedly draws stares, and has assumptions people might make, I think this "non-criminal" activity is very much better to be done out-of-site, when possible. This is why I hunt parks late towards dusk, if not outright at night nowadays. Not because I think I'm doing anything illegal or "criminal", but because I don't want to have any busy-bodies make the assumption that I am. And the less I am seen, the less busy-bodies I'll run into.

Out of site, is out of mind, just the legal activity of nose-picking. I wish it wasn't that way Dwayne. But I just don't envision any "metal detecting legal here, go ahead and dig" signs to be posted on parks in my town, anytime soon.

I got a good laugh here lol. I needed that.

It seems to attract a lot of kids. They love seeing what, if anything we find. Especially at the beach. Out fo pure instinct, I seek out quiet parks or even school yards or failing that, I locate myself at the other end of where others maybe enjoying the park.

I think the whole metal detecting thing is in a gray area, one thing I note in section 430 (1)(d) of the Criminal Code of Canada makes me wonder if I can't charge the officer for "(d) obstructs, interrupts or interferes with any person in the lawful use, enjoyment or operation of property." Wouldn't that be one for the newspaper or TV.

Man out metal detecting, accosted by RCMP Officers, arrests Mounty with his own handcuffs as per Section 430(1)(d) of the Criminal Code of Canada lol

 

[bigolhorns]

Dwayne,

you say:

"Creeping around at night is fine for those night hawks, but why should I have to hide to enjoy a non-criminal activity!"

The reason we sometime have to be discreet (I'll use that word, instead of "hide") is that we are unfortunately in a hobby that draws the stares of curious onlookers (you gotta admit, us swinging the "geigercounter thingy" looks odd). And as you admit, there is a sometimes a knee-jerk connotation or assumption (no matter how wrong), that you might leave a hole, right?

So therefore sometimes it IS important for us to go at odd times, off-hours, etc.... Because just like nose-picking: it may be "legal", yet, for pete's sake, you use some discretion when nose-picking, right? So because our hobby admittedly draws stares, and has assumptions people might make, I think this "non-criminal" activity is very much better to be done out-of-site, when possible. This is why I hunt parks late towards dusk, if not outright at night nowadays. Not because I think I'm doing anything illegal or "criminal", but because I don't want to have any busy-bodies make the assumption that I am. And the less I am seen, the less busy-bodies I'll run into.

Out of site, is out of mind, just the legal activity of nose-picking. I wish it wasn't that way Dwayne. But I just don't envision any "metal detecting legal here, go ahead and dig" signs to be posted on parks in my town, anytime soon.

EXACTLY!
I don't want a cop approaching me while I'm picking my nose simply because he doesn't like it, some idiot called him or there "might" be a law against it. I'm not doing anything wrong when I'm detecting...........LEAVE ME ALONE!
I live directly across the street from a city park. You would not believe what I see going on there. I call the cops and they do nothing. Yet I had a cop run about 300 yards across a park yelling "YOU CAN"T DIG HOLES". You should have seen the look on his face when I said "I don't have anything to dig a hole with". Then he asked to see my Drivers license ??? I said "Do I need a Drivers License to operate this detector"? He left and I continued to detect.
Moral of this story: Never carry anything more than a screwdriver in a park or school.

 

[Terry Soloman]

Like the original poster of this thread, I had a similar incident. I agree and disagree with what I read here. On one hand, people are giving the Poster hell for his attitude back at the officer. Well, I have to say, one of the most difficult things to do, is respond in kindness when a civil servant gives you aggressive tone and bad body language. Until your put in a position like this, you can't comment and give a guy crap for how he handled the officer. Hind sight is 20 20..

It is always more "difficult," to do the right thing Dwayne. I am a combat veteran. Sometimes I feel angry, frustrated, superior, even entitled when a 20-something police officer tells me not to do something I think I have every right to do. Fortunately I'm not 20 anymore, and life has taught me how to handle this tricky situation - Say "Yes sir," and walk away. You can blow your top at the dumb-azz beat cop, tell him your were shooting communists when his father was a teenager, recite the Constitution, pull out the town regs - hell you can even run and get your brother the lawyer. Guess what reactionary one, you will lose. Public property is just that. Metal detectorists make up about .0007 of the "public." You were outvoted before you ever began. We will NEVER have a united voice - EVER. That takes money, organization and time. Treasure hunters are solitary, individualistic, and can rarely agree on which metal detector works best in a given situation! I'm a gold prospector. You think you have problems detecting your public park? LOL! Come live with my rules and regs for a week. Here is some more free advice: Get over it and move on!

 

[Dwayne2010]

I lay my comments to rest. It was a great topic.

 

[Prep1957]

Wear a class 2 or 3 safety surveyor vest in the city or suburb there are so many utility locator's,surveyors they will think you are one of them we are such a common site no one even notices.Now if you go out in the country with the vest on you might become residents best entertainment for awhile or get mauled by a bull.

 

[jmaryt]

been doing this for over 33 years,and i gotta tell ya,if i could make myself "invisible" while
hunting public places,i would not hesitate to do so!..perhaps it is the present state of the world,or perhaps not,
however it has been my experience over time,that MOST people who approach you while hunting in a public place
want to "toss" you out,or call the police to tell you to leave!..this has been especially true within the last 5 years or so.
amazing!..but true!..go figure!..just sayin!

(h.h.!)
j.t.