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Spent the week with the 3 kHz coil
- Thread starter NH Bob
- Start date
I dig rusty caps at EVERY homesite.........lol
some have a few, some have a lot. I just throw em in my pouch and kept searching!
the other day I dug one and rechecked the hole, and low and behold there was a deep wheat directly underneath it, If I had not removed the bottlecap I would have never got the deep wheatie the cap was masking
some have a few, some have a lot. I just throw em in my pouch and kept searching!
the other day I dug one and rechecked the hole, and low and behold there was a deep wheat directly underneath it, If I had not removed the bottlecap I would have never got the deep wheatie the cap was masking
"Bottle caps and nuts are going to haunt you on the XTs unless you can hear the difference in the quality of tone."
That is why Randy is telling us how to do it with the 3 kHz coil with the multiple tone harmonics and creeping the coil back.
I think if we had a 3 kHz DD for the XT's 50(5) and 70(5) it would handle iron alot better than the present 3 kHz Concentric.
On the 5 kHz Musky with the DD's a person sweeps fast over bottle caps to ID them out.
What machine on the market ID's and knocks out rusty bottle caps and big iron the very best? The Sovereign does well for this according to the person above. Like a broken record, we need the round 6" and 10.5" LF (3kHz) DD's very badly for the X-Terra's!! (I hope that is one of Minelabs next moves, to make these LF DD coils that would be big sellers. I know I want them and so does Randy and maybe you guys too.)
P.S. I have never thought about this before until now. I wonder if a 5x10" DD 3 kHz coil would have any use not covered by a round 6" and 10.5" 3 kHz DD ones? Food for thought.
That is why Randy is telling us how to do it with the 3 kHz coil with the multiple tone harmonics and creeping the coil back.
I think if we had a 3 kHz DD for the XT's 50(5) and 70(5) it would handle iron alot better than the present 3 kHz Concentric.
On the 5 kHz Musky with the DD's a person sweeps fast over bottle caps to ID them out.
What machine on the market ID's and knocks out rusty bottle caps and big iron the very best? The Sovereign does well for this according to the person above. Like a broken record, we need the round 6" and 10.5" LF (3kHz) DD's very badly for the X-Terra's!! (I hope that is one of Minelabs next moves, to make these LF DD coils that would be big sellers. I know I want them and so does Randy and maybe you guys too.)
P.S. I have never thought about this before until now. I wonder if a 5x10" DD 3 kHz coil would have any use not covered by a round 6" and 10.5" 3 kHz DD ones? Food for thought.
By multiple tones I am referring to what Minelab typically calls 99 tones. However, with one tone per notch segment, it would be 28 on the X-70 and 705. I started out using 4 tones for the first year or so. But one day I decided to make myself use the multiple tones. At first, it drove me nuts. But I stuck with it reminding myself how important a subtle change of tone can be, when I was using the BBS and FBS detectors. Now, nearly 3 years later, I hunt in all metal, multiple tone mode all the time.
The point I've tried to make is that different targets produce different tones. If you had an IH cent with a TID of 24, and a piece of trash with a TID of 2 or 4, they would sound the same on every tone setting except multiple tone mode. So if you are not using multiple tone mode, you find youself breaking your rhythm to look at the TID. With this example, the difference between these two targets using multiple tone mode provides a variance of 10 different audio pitches. Moving halfway up or down the "scale" makes quite a drastic difference in what my ears are hearing. I've become familiar enough with the tones that I pretty well know what the TID is going to be, without looking. If I had been using the 4-tone mode, 3-tone mode, 2-tone mode or single tone mode, both targets would produce the same sound. And like I said, I'd have to look at the meter. Plus, when I drag my coil away from the IH cent, the sound will not fluctuate until the audio drops out. On the piece of trash, I will hear a blending of two or more tones as I drag the coil away. This is what I've referred to as harmonics. If I had been in anything but the multiple tone mode, I could drag that coil until the cows came home and it would still just produce one tone. If you were to compare the higher tones on say, two dimes....... it doesn't matter because individual coins don't produce harmonics. They may not produce the same tone or provide the same TID. But they will pass my tests of "dig or not to dig".
Simply put, I have learned to use multiple tones becasue they let me hunt by ear, increasing my hunt time because I am not constantly checking the meter. Either method is fine. Afterall, it is an X-Terra! ....... to me, using mulitple tones on the X-Terra is like listening to your favorite song in surround sound. Anything less is like listening to someone playing the same song using only four notes. (or less) In my opinion, I'm a better coinshooter now that I've learned to use the multiple tone mode. I doubt if I would have found the silver 3-cent piece or the 3-cent nickel, without using multiple tones. I still swear by my three rules of consistency ( location, sound and TID). But hunting with multiple tones adds a whole new dimension to hunting with a single frequency detector. JMHO HH Randy
The point I've tried to make is that different targets produce different tones. If you had an IH cent with a TID of 24, and a piece of trash with a TID of 2 or 4, they would sound the same on every tone setting except multiple tone mode. So if you are not using multiple tone mode, you find youself breaking your rhythm to look at the TID. With this example, the difference between these two targets using multiple tone mode provides a variance of 10 different audio pitches. Moving halfway up or down the "scale" makes quite a drastic difference in what my ears are hearing. I've become familiar enough with the tones that I pretty well know what the TID is going to be, without looking. If I had been using the 4-tone mode, 3-tone mode, 2-tone mode or single tone mode, both targets would produce the same sound. And like I said, I'd have to look at the meter. Plus, when I drag my coil away from the IH cent, the sound will not fluctuate until the audio drops out. On the piece of trash, I will hear a blending of two or more tones as I drag the coil away. This is what I've referred to as harmonics. If I had been in anything but the multiple tone mode, I could drag that coil until the cows came home and it would still just produce one tone. If you were to compare the higher tones on say, two dimes....... it doesn't matter because individual coins don't produce harmonics. They may not produce the same tone or provide the same TID. But they will pass my tests of "dig or not to dig".
Simply put, I have learned to use multiple tones becasue they let me hunt by ear, increasing my hunt time because I am not constantly checking the meter. Either method is fine. Afterall, it is an X-Terra! ....... to me, using mulitple tones on the X-Terra is like listening to your favorite song in surround sound. Anything less is like listening to someone playing the same song using only four notes. (or less) In my opinion, I'm a better coinshooter now that I've learned to use the multiple tone mode. I doubt if I would have found the silver 3-cent piece or the 3-cent nickel, without using multiple tones. I still swear by my three rules of consistency ( location, sound and TID). But hunting with multiple tones adds a whole new dimension to hunting with a single frequency detector. JMHO HH Randy
Let me go a step further. The text book signal is not always going to be there. If you break it down into little segments, you will leave a lot of good targets for the next gut. Don't get too picky.
I know Randy knows his stuff but I've pulled many coins out with nails and other debris and not got a good lock on till I removed the nails.
Not trying to argue as I'm no techie. Just a guy in the field that knows what works for me.
I know Randy knows his stuff but I've pulled many coins out with nails and other debris and not got a good lock on till I removed the nails.
Not trying to argue as I'm no techie. Just a guy in the field that knows what works for me.
BarnacleBill
New member
David,
Single frequency VLF large DD coils do poorly on steel bottle cap rejection. The Sovereign is not a single frequency VLF, therefore comparing the two is meaningless. A large 3kHz DD would make the X-Terras incredibly nose heavy, and whether or not there is enough room in the 6 inch housing to hold the winding size for 3kHz is debatable.
Therefore don't include me in the collective "we" that is calling for these 3kHz coils you are trumpeting. And if you want to go looking for Gold Rings with a 3kHz coil, then have at it, it'll just leave more in the ground for someone else to find. The secret to hunting in iron heavy sites is the 6 inch DD HF coil which DOES have an uncanny ability to ignore steel bottle caps despite being a DD. As in a recent post of using the 6 inch DD HF on the new X305, I stated that I dug "no Iron" in a very iron rich area including around picnic tables, after several hours hunting. Yet I pulled out all sorts of tiny low conductors(gold ID segments) from amongst the iron.
And let me say this which is probably going to really antagonize some people. Many of the users of some recently released VLF detectors equipped with large DD coils don't like to talk about steel bottle caps. And the reason is simple, it's their achilles heal. And then when a software change is made to add a B/C mode, they then complain about the effect it has on performance. The one's who are honest will tell you in private that hunting in B/C infested parks is very frustrating. The jury in my mind is still out on how the "other" three frequency detector with a large DD is going to handle steel B/C's. Keep in mind it has a 3kHz(2.5) mode which should give some indication of a how a large LF DD will fare in B/C rich areas. There's also the matter of the old rusted painted steel B/C's versus the newer foil/coated, and both types if they are in a crushed condition & facing up or down. ALL of these factors come into play with steel B/C's.
Right now the 6 inch HF DD is the weapon of choice in iron trash. But it must be swung slowly, not because of lag, but because the signal width is so narrow that that a target will go by and your ears won't be able to process the information quick enough.
BarnacleBill
Single frequency VLF large DD coils do poorly on steel bottle cap rejection. The Sovereign is not a single frequency VLF, therefore comparing the two is meaningless. A large 3kHz DD would make the X-Terras incredibly nose heavy, and whether or not there is enough room in the 6 inch housing to hold the winding size for 3kHz is debatable.
Therefore don't include me in the collective "we" that is calling for these 3kHz coils you are trumpeting. And if you want to go looking for Gold Rings with a 3kHz coil, then have at it, it'll just leave more in the ground for someone else to find. The secret to hunting in iron heavy sites is the 6 inch DD HF coil which DOES have an uncanny ability to ignore steel bottle caps despite being a DD. As in a recent post of using the 6 inch DD HF on the new X305, I stated that I dug "no Iron" in a very iron rich area including around picnic tables, after several hours hunting. Yet I pulled out all sorts of tiny low conductors(gold ID segments) from amongst the iron.
And let me say this which is probably going to really antagonize some people. Many of the users of some recently released VLF detectors equipped with large DD coils don't like to talk about steel bottle caps. And the reason is simple, it's their achilles heal. And then when a software change is made to add a B/C mode, they then complain about the effect it has on performance. The one's who are honest will tell you in private that hunting in B/C infested parks is very frustrating. The jury in my mind is still out on how the "other" three frequency detector with a large DD is going to handle steel B/C's. Keep in mind it has a 3kHz(2.5) mode which should give some indication of a how a large LF DD will fare in B/C rich areas. There's also the matter of the old rusted painted steel B/C's versus the newer foil/coated, and both types if they are in a crushed condition & facing up or down. ALL of these factors come into play with steel B/C's.
Right now the 6 inch HF DD is the weapon of choice in iron trash. But it must be swung slowly, not because of lag, but because the signal width is so narrow that that a target will go by and your ears won't be able to process the information quick enough.
BarnacleBill
depth, adjacent targets, angle that the target is buried and soil conditions can and will affect the sound and TID produced by a given target. Here are a few of the posts I've made within the past year, that reflect my thoughts as to why I do not ignore those less than "text book" signals......
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?55,919761,919871#msg-919871
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?55,892173,892185#msg-892185
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?55,858322,858330#msg-858330
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?55,845800,846071#msg-846071
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?55,800016,801801#msg-801801
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?55,727668,729416#msg-729416
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?55,719686,719824#msg-719824
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?55,676289,676314#msg-676314
HH
Randy
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?55,919761,919871#msg-919871
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?55,892173,892185#msg-892185
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?55,858322,858330#msg-858330
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?55,845800,846071#msg-846071
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?55,800016,801801#msg-801801
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?55,727668,729416#msg-729416
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?55,719686,719824#msg-719824
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?55,676289,676314#msg-676314
HH
Randy
Yeah Digger, I understand what you are trying to convey. Some of those wrap-around falses will jump to very high ID's and some to very low ID's, sometimes hitting 2, 4 and sometimes 6.
So using multi-tone setting should allow for better interpretation over the 2,3 and 4 tones selections.
Now I will need to learn the multi-tone setting
......and I thought I wouldn't have to learn a symphony of tones ever again after I learned the Explorer.
So using multi-tone setting should allow for better interpretation over the 2,3 and 4 tones selections.
Now I will need to learn the multi-tone setting
......and I thought I wouldn't have to learn a symphony of tones ever again after I learned the Explorer.BarnacleBill
New member
multi-tones setting has lower tones in the iron range than the X70?
HH
BarnacleBill
HH
BarnacleBill
I'm convinced that a TID of -8 provides the same tone on both models. And I believe all the tones from a TID of +6 on up provide the same tone with both models. But starting with +4, and going down to -6, the 705 is notably lower with each comparible notch segment. It is tough to tell how much lower, without attaching a frequency meter. But for sake of comparison, it sounds to me that a -6 on the X-70 is about a half octave higher than a -2 on the 705. I tested several dozen ferrous targets and was unable to get the X-70 audio to exactly match the 705 anywhere in that range. Like I said, even a target with -6 ferrous reading on the 705 provided a higher tone than a different target providing a -2 on the X-70.
One other thing I have noticed about the "tones".......... it seems my 705 has a bit of reverberation that I never heard on my X-70. By reverberation I mean I can hear a definite "fading tone" on super deep targets. With the X-70, the tone was either there or it wasn't. In other words, some targets were simply too deep to produce a tone on my X-70. But with the 705, I hear a tone that resembles the tone I would hear when I was using the multiple freq detectors. (Sovereign and Explorer) Makes me wonder if Minelab incorporated some of the multiple frequency "magic" into the single frquency X-Terra??? So far, I've not hit a target (in the field) with the 705 that I couldn't confirm with the X-70. But I've not hit that many super deep targets, yet. Like I said the other day, as far as comparing the earlier model with the new release........my jury is still out!! But this "reverberation" has me wondering............if you're listening closely to the audio, could the 705 be deeper???
HH Randy
One other thing I have noticed about the "tones".......... it seems my 705 has a bit of reverberation that I never heard on my X-70. By reverberation I mean I can hear a definite "fading tone" on super deep targets. With the X-70, the tone was either there or it wasn't. In other words, some targets were simply too deep to produce a tone on my X-70. But with the 705, I hear a tone that resembles the tone I would hear when I was using the multiple freq detectors. (Sovereign and Explorer) Makes me wonder if Minelab incorporated some of the multiple frequency "magic" into the single frquency X-Terra??? So far, I've not hit a target (in the field) with the 705 that I couldn't confirm with the X-70. But I've not hit that many super deep targets, yet. Like I said the other day, as far as comparing the earlier model with the new release........my jury is still out!! But this "reverberation" has me wondering............if you're listening closely to the audio, could the 705 be deeper???
HH Randy
Mick in Dubbo
New member
So much.
That was a cracker of a post!
I love to look for getting that sort of info out of my detectors. 3 of your posts in this thread sure has given me some food for thought and I appreciate you posting them.
Thanks.
Mick Evans
That was a cracker of a post!
I love to look for getting that sort of info out of my detectors. 3 of your posts in this thread sure has given me some food for thought and I appreciate you posting them.Thanks.
Mick Evans
With no disrespect meant, this is where you guys get way to techie for the average person in the field who is enjoying the hobby and the machine. some of the folks on this forum are trying desperately to keep up with what you are presenting them with and in doing so are taking all the fun out of what this is all about..
If the truth was known, most are looking for basic down to earth tips on an easier way to use the X-Terra's. My opinion for what it is worth would be to show them the ease of use the X-Terra's provide. I have learned my machines well and enjoy digging relics and old coins by understanding the blips and chirps of the deep signals.
I say to those non tech users, don't make this machine and hobby any harder on yourself than need be.
Again, I usually wind up getting someone angry at me for saying what I have practiced for so many years and the joy that it has brought me.
If the truth was known, most are looking for basic down to earth tips on an easier way to use the X-Terra's. My opinion for what it is worth would be to show them the ease of use the X-Terra's provide. I have learned my machines well and enjoy digging relics and old coins by understanding the blips and chirps of the deep signals.
I say to those non tech users, don't make this machine and hobby any harder on yourself than need be.
Again, I usually wind up getting someone angry at me for saying what I have practiced for so many years and the joy that it has brought me.
David,
Single frequency VLF large DD coils do poorly on steel bottle cap rejection. The Sovereign is not a single frequency VLF, therefore comparing the two is meaningless.
That is good to know as all VLF's have the same problem and large DD's are worse on bottle caps and iron than small DD's. But I disagree on your second part, as any machine that has a better bottle cap rejection, no matter what circuit is worth looking at as a better option. We should be willing to look at any better mouse trap available. Years ago in about 1976 on my Compass Judge I Automatic TR I think it had a bottle cap reject setting on it, about 33 years ago this was also a problem.
A large 3kHz DD would make the X-Terras incredibly nose heavy,
A large round 10.5" 3 kHz DD coil should be about the same weight and same nose heavy as the round 10.5" 7.5 and 18.75 kHz DD ones we already have know.
and whether or not there is enough room in the 6 inch housing to hold the winding size for 3kHz is debatable.
I did not know that there is more winding in a 3 kHz over an 18.75 kHz 6" DD?
Therefore don't include me in the collective "we" that is calling for these 3kHz coils you are trumpeting.
Randy had been wanting a 6" 3 kHz DD for some time and I have got other feedback of others as well and I had wanted one too.
And if you want to go looking for Gold Rings with a 3kHz coil, then have at it, it'll just leave more in the ground for someone else to find.
I do not have the 9" 3 kHz Concentric, if a 3 kHz DD is not made by about mid summer then I am planning on buying one. I tested a very small and very fine 14 Kt. yellow Gold Ring on my 7.5" 5 kHz DD Musky coil and the response is terrific, loud, and deep. I have heard that the 9" 3 kHz Concentric picked up a fine Gold Ring about as good as the 6" 18.75 kHz DD but the numbers did not lock on as good. So yes in All-Metal I would hunt for Gold Rings on old homesteads and farmers fields with the 3 kHz coil as by-product while knocking out iron better and signalling on silver and copper coins better at the same time.
The secret to hunting in iron heavy sites is the 6 inch DD HF coil which DOES have an uncanny ability to ignore steel bottle caps despite being a DD. As in a recent post of using the 6 inch DD HF on the new X305, I stated that I dug "no Iron" in a very iron rich area including around picnic tables, after several hours hunting. Yet I pulled out all sorts of tiny low conductors(gold ID segments) from amongst the iron.
If this is true then a 6 inch DD LF coil would not be so necessary to have. We should take a closer look at the 6 inch DD HF for working around iron. This is good and helpful information.
And let me say this which is probably going to really antagonize some people. Many of the users of some recently released VLF detectors equipped with large DD coils don't like to talk about steel bottle caps. And the reason is simple, it's their achilles heal. And then when a software change is made to add a B/C mode, they then complain about the effect it has on performance. The one's who are honest will tell you in private that hunting in B/C infested parks is very frustrating. The jury in my mind is still out on how the "other" three frequency detector with a large DD is going to handle steel B/C's. Keep in mind it has a 3kHz(2.5) mode which should give some indication of a how a large LF DD will fare in B/C rich areas. There's also the matter of the old rusted painted steel B/C's versus the newer foil/coated, and both types if they are in a crushed condition & facing up or down. ALL of these factors come into play with steel B/C's.
Right now the 6 inch HF DD is the weapon of choice in iron trash. But it must be swung slowly, not because of lag, but because the signal width is so narrow that that a target will go by and your ears won't be able to process the information quick enough.
This is very good to know Bill, and also I was told to use Tracking as it helps to handle "iron" better also. The 5x10" HF DD should be OK for trashy areas but the signal width is wider according to nero_design. I may have to reconsider and not want a LF DD so much and give it a chance being satisfied with what is available by trying the 6 inch HF DD in "iron trash" in Tracking mode swinging slowly.
BarnacleBill
Single frequency VLF large DD coils do poorly on steel bottle cap rejection. The Sovereign is not a single frequency VLF, therefore comparing the two is meaningless.
That is good to know as all VLF's have the same problem and large DD's are worse on bottle caps and iron than small DD's. But I disagree on your second part, as any machine that has a better bottle cap rejection, no matter what circuit is worth looking at as a better option. We should be willing to look at any better mouse trap available. Years ago in about 1976 on my Compass Judge I Automatic TR I think it had a bottle cap reject setting on it, about 33 years ago this was also a problem.
A large 3kHz DD would make the X-Terras incredibly nose heavy,
A large round 10.5" 3 kHz DD coil should be about the same weight and same nose heavy as the round 10.5" 7.5 and 18.75 kHz DD ones we already have know.
and whether or not there is enough room in the 6 inch housing to hold the winding size for 3kHz is debatable.
I did not know that there is more winding in a 3 kHz over an 18.75 kHz 6" DD?
Therefore don't include me in the collective "we" that is calling for these 3kHz coils you are trumpeting.
Randy had been wanting a 6" 3 kHz DD for some time and I have got other feedback of others as well and I had wanted one too.
And if you want to go looking for Gold Rings with a 3kHz coil, then have at it, it'll just leave more in the ground for someone else to find.
I do not have the 9" 3 kHz Concentric, if a 3 kHz DD is not made by about mid summer then I am planning on buying one. I tested a very small and very fine 14 Kt. yellow Gold Ring on my 7.5" 5 kHz DD Musky coil and the response is terrific, loud, and deep. I have heard that the 9" 3 kHz Concentric picked up a fine Gold Ring about as good as the 6" 18.75 kHz DD but the numbers did not lock on as good. So yes in All-Metal I would hunt for Gold Rings on old homesteads and farmers fields with the 3 kHz coil as by-product while knocking out iron better and signalling on silver and copper coins better at the same time.
The secret to hunting in iron heavy sites is the 6 inch DD HF coil which DOES have an uncanny ability to ignore steel bottle caps despite being a DD. As in a recent post of using the 6 inch DD HF on the new X305, I stated that I dug "no Iron" in a very iron rich area including around picnic tables, after several hours hunting. Yet I pulled out all sorts of tiny low conductors(gold ID segments) from amongst the iron.
If this is true then a 6 inch DD LF coil would not be so necessary to have. We should take a closer look at the 6 inch DD HF for working around iron. This is good and helpful information.
And let me say this which is probably going to really antagonize some people. Many of the users of some recently released VLF detectors equipped with large DD coils don't like to talk about steel bottle caps. And the reason is simple, it's their achilles heal. And then when a software change is made to add a B/C mode, they then complain about the effect it has on performance. The one's who are honest will tell you in private that hunting in B/C infested parks is very frustrating. The jury in my mind is still out on how the "other" three frequency detector with a large DD is going to handle steel B/C's. Keep in mind it has a 3kHz(2.5) mode which should give some indication of a how a large LF DD will fare in B/C rich areas. There's also the matter of the old rusted painted steel B/C's versus the newer foil/coated, and both types if they are in a crushed condition & facing up or down. ALL of these factors come into play with steel B/C's.
Right now the 6 inch HF DD is the weapon of choice in iron trash. But it must be swung slowly, not because of lag, but because the signal width is so narrow that that a target will go by and your ears won't be able to process the information quick enough.
This is very good to know Bill, and also I was told to use Tracking as it helps to handle "iron" better also. The 5x10" HF DD should be OK for trashy areas but the signal width is wider according to nero_design. I may have to reconsider and not want a LF DD so much and give it a chance being satisfied with what is available by trying the 6 inch HF DD in "iron trash" in Tracking mode swinging slowly.
BarnacleBill
