NOKTA MAKRO (LEGEND) GETTING SUED - PATENT INFRINGEMENT

[oldkoot]

Long overdue.

Go Minelab Go!

MINELAB ELECTRONICS PTY LTD v. NOKTA MAKRO DETECTORS et al

Patent case filed on November 16, 2022 in the Pennsylvania Western District Court

dockets.justia.com

I have read through this whole post and all replies I have tried to stay out of this thread other than reading through it but, why would anyone wish something bad on a company or person, you seem to have it in your warped mind that this is a great thing and are hoping Nokta/Macro goes out of business, in your warped mind how do you figure this is a good thing for any of us that detect,(IT IS NOT A GOOD THING) competition between manufacturers is a great thing for all of us, and when one goes out of business because another company wants to monopolize an industry (Mine Lab) then us as detectorist suffer the consequences of that, maybe you like crappy build quality issues me personally I do not

Nokta/Macro has proven they are a great company and Mine Lab has proven they do not care what they put out, and this Law suit proves they are greedy, personally I hope Nokta/Macro turns around and slaps Mine Lab with a counter suit for installing a flash light and vibrating handle on The nox 700,900 and Manticore simply because Nokta/macro had them first but in reality my hopes are Mine Lab comes to their sense's and just drops the whole Law Suit thing all together, that would be a win win situation for all of us but greedy people have no sense

Mine Labs patents expired thus the emergence of Nokta/Macro Legend and Deus 2 your post and replies through your whole thread has made me loose any respect I had for you, you are just pee OD that you purchased a detector that had build issues and did not have enough since to complain about it or admit to it you just want to keep defending Mine Labs lack of caring about what they put out on the Market

your vendetta against Nokta/Macro says a lot about your CHARACTER.

I had a lot of respect for you until this thread

 

[DigDog]

I have read through this whole post and all replies I have tried to stay out of this thread other than reading through it but, why would anyone wish something bad on a company or person, you seem to have it in your warped mind that this is a great thing and are hoping Nokta/Macro goes out of business, in your warped mind how do you figure this is a good thing for any of us that detect,(IT IS NOT A GOOD THING) competition between manufacturers is a great thing for all of us, and when one goes out of business because another company wants to monopolize an industry (Mine Lab) then us as detectorist suffer the consequences of that, maybe you like crappy build quality issues me personally I do not

Nokta/Macro has proven they are a great company and Mine Lab has proven they do not care what they put out, and this Law suit proves they are greedy, personally I hope Nokta/Macro turns around and slaps Mine Lab with a counter suit for installing a flash light and vibrating handle on The nox 700,900 and Manticore simply because Nokta/macro had them first but in reality my hopes are Mine Lab comes to their sense's and just drops the whole Law Suit thing all together, that would be a win win situation for all of us but greedy people have no sense

Mine Labs patents expired thus the emergence of Nokta/Macro Legend and Deus 2 your post and replies through your whole thread has made me loose any respect I had for you, you are just pee OD that you purchased a detector that had build issues and did not have enough since to complain about it or admit to it you just want to keep defending Mine Labs lack of caring about what they put out on the Market

your vendetta against Nokta/Macro says a lot about your CHARACTER.

I had a lot of respect for you until this thread

I think his warped mind thinks that everyone agrees. Aside from the same few ML fanboys who keep agreeing if everyone had the same courage as you, most would disagree with the constant lies,spins and frankly sh t starting negativity towards NM and the legend.
I challenge him to say publicly on here that the legend is a good detector for the money. Not necessarily have to say it’s the best as everyone has their own opinion but geez not one single iota of anything good. 100% bad postings on NM forums. But on the other hand 100% good words about the ML Nox.
Wait i stand corrected he did admit ML admitted that 0.01% have leaks lmfao.
So thats 99.99% positive.
Come on man list just 5 good things about the legend? 3 ?, 2 ?, 1 ?.
Keep your bias bs to yourself.

 

[vlad]

Do you have proof it is a farce or just blowing smoke??

Fisher invented multi frequency in the '70s but did not patent it or use it in a detector because no benefits were seen in technology then. Although ML did patent it Fisher was grandfathered in with the CZ.
Whites & Garrett sued each other over who invented the VLF ground cancel circuit and after many years of paying many lawyers a lot of money came to a mutual agreement that they both shared in it.
Whites sued Teknetics/Bounty Hunter over George Payne coming up with some idea he never developed and used when he was with Whites, and they lost the case. ML reversed P.I. designs of Eric Foster that
he did not patent and Eric felt were not good overall designs: he could do better. Whites bought the rights to make a factory version of Eric's Goldscan-5 that became the TDI. Garrett hired Eric to design some of their pulses (but not all) and the Seahunter was the detector used by Mel Fisher when he first hit Atocha coins. Eric did not invent the Pulse but is responsible for its development. There are vast fields of lawsuits waiting to be harvested in both China and Russia but if someone goes to Russia to serve papers I hope you have a geiger counter because polonium-210 is a favorite (and lethal) cocktail served to foreign agitators there.
Lawyers and bartenders have much in common and some even practice both trades: either way you are getting clipped. (This is a good place for a lawyer joke but there are only 3 and everyone has heard them:
the rest are all true.)

 

[dank1296]

Love my Legend

 

[CoinShooter01]

I hope Nokta/Macro turns around and slaps Mine Lab with a counter suit for installing a flash light and vibrating handle on The nox 700,900 and Manticore simply because Nokta/macro had them first

Ouch!
Settle down!
Thomas Edison invented the light bulb.
Sounds like you have a vendetta against Minelab.
I wont judge you.

I challenge him to say publicly on here that the legend is a good detector for the money. Not necessarily have to say it’s the best as everyone has their own opinion but geez not one single iota of anything good. 100% bad postings on NM forums. But on the other hand 100% good words about the
So thats 99.99% positive.
Come on man list just 5 good things about the legend? 3 ?, 2 ?, 1 ?.
Keep your bias bs to yourself.

Challenge accepted!
1. They are inexpensive, partially due to lack of research and development.
2. 1.05 was better than 1.04
3. 1.07 was better than 1.05
4. 1.09 is better than 1.07 (for some users)
5. They have improved their speakers.

 

[DigDog]

Ouch!
Settle down!
Thomas Edison invented the light bulb.
Sounds like you have a vendetta against Minelab.
I wont judge you.




Challenge accepted!
1. They are inexpensive, partially due to lack of research and development.
2. 1.05 was better than 1.04
3. 1.07 was better than 1.05
4. 1.09 is better than 1.07 (for some users)
5. They have improved their speakers.

Ill take #5 but the rest really?
How about using the word “good” in a sentence

 

[oldkoot]

Coinshooter01 if I had a vendetta against mine lab I would have never placed an order for the Manticore and also thinking about purchasing a Nox 900 so where do you see me as having a vendetta against
Mine Lab, I have stated in several post one of if not my favorite detector I have ever used is the Xterra 705 a (Mine Lab) detector I will be the first to say that their PI (PULSE INDUCTION) detectors are the best there is but the prices are more then I am willing to spend so thus my reason for also ordering the new Garrett Axiom, it is not that I dislike Mine Lab what I do dislike however is the fact's that cannot be disputed of how bad the build quality is on the Nox 600 and 800 it does appear that Mine Lab has rectified those build quality issues with the 900 and 700 but that remains to be seen, every time you put up a post concerning the Legend you have nothing but bad or I will change that 90% of what you post up is bad, DO YOU EVEN own a Legend or have you even ever picked one up and gave one a try, if you have and just do not like the Legend that is one thing but if you have never even used one or held one in your hand that is something else if the Latter is the case then you sir are the one that has an agenda against Nokta/Macro in my opinion can you say you have done the same in purchasing a Lend in my opinion for what it is worth no you cannot. For me I will purchase what ever detector I feel is the better Value, and the only reason I have ordered a Manticore is the expanded TID range which is the same reason I am considering purchasing a Nox 900 also the TID range on the Legend is pretty much the only thing on the Legend is what I do not like simply because I have seen gold nuggets come in in negative TIDs and all across the TID range of the Xterra 705, so you tell me whom has a agenda against whom

 

[Tahts-a-dats-ago]

Challenge accepted!
1. They are inexpensive, partially due to lack of research and development.
2. 1.05 was better than 1.04
3. 1.07 was better than 1.05
4. 1.09 is better than 1.07 (for some users)
5. They have improved their speakers.

1. How much R&D did Nokta engage in when developing the Legend?
You seem to have some sort of insider knowledge to that regard; I'm just interested in learning how you came to have information that, to my understanding, isn't public.

2. Why would it take Nokta several years to bring the product to market, if all they did was copy someone else's product?

3. Are the updates improvements upon someone else's design?
If they are, then that someone else doesn't have much of a leg to stand on. If they aren't, then that someone else has no leg to stand on.
Unless, of course, that someone else is willing to imply that their design was less than stellar to begin with, or that efforts to copy it were so dismal that they failed; in which case the claims of infringement wouldn't have any teeth.

4. How could Nokta engineers release subsequently better updates, for the Legend, without having some degree of knowledge (research/development) of the software driving the Legend?
Is it pure, blind, luck?

5. If Minelab decides to offer a metal detector that doesn't leak, or coils that don't break, will you celebrate a lawsuit against them?

I get the fact that you're not a fan of Nokta. Nothing wrong with you not being a fan. What I don't get is why you seem to think you've somehow been harmed by Nokta, or why you would celebrate actions that have the potential to undermine the people who metal detect.

 

[CoinShooter01]

Coinshooter01 if I had a vendetta against mine lab I would have never placed an order for the Manticore and also thinking about purchasing a Nox 900 so where do you see me as having a vendetta against
Mine Lab, I have stated in several post one of if not my favorite detector I have ever used is the Xterra 705 a (Mine Lab) detector I will be the first to say that their PI (PULSE INDUCTION) detectors are the best there is but the prices are more then I am willing to spend so thus my reason for also ordering the new Garrett Axiom, it is not that I dislike Mine Lab what I do dislike however is the fact's that cannot be disputed of how bad the build quality is on the Nox 600 and 800 it does appear that Mine Lab has rectified those build quality issues with the 900 and 700 but that remains to be seen, every time you put up a post concerning the Legend you have nothing but bad or I will change that 90% of what you post up is bad, DO YOU EVEN own a Legend or have you even ever picked one up and gave one a try, if you have and just do not like the Legend that is one thing but if you have never even used one or held one in your hand that is something else if the Latter is the case then you sir are the one that has an agenda against Nokta/Macro in my opinion can you say you have done the same in purchasing a Lend in my opinion for what it is worth no you cannot. For me I will purchase what ever detector I feel is the better Value, and the only reason I have ordered a Manticore is the expanded TID range which is the same reason I am considering purchasing a Nox 900 also the TID range on the Legend is pretty much the only thing on the Legend is what I do not like simply because I have seen gold nuggets come in in negative TIDs and all across the TID range of the Xterra 705, so you tell me whom has a agenda against whom

Your getting very side tracked and completely off topic, with your "legend is best theory"

This thread is about a company stealing intellectual property from another company.
A very serious implication.
Not very ethical, and where I come from, we work hard, and we dont like thiefs.
If you choose to be a rebel, and disagree, so be it.

And to answer your question, ...

My neighbor has the legend, and he has me do all the updates, because it frustrates him.
We have extensively compared his legend to my Nox,in the parks we both hunt.
We both agree, the Nox is much better, especially with masking.
He borrows my Nox all the time.
I have never borrowed his legend!
But this thread is not about which machine is better.
We already know the answer to that.

Back on topic...

This thread is about a company stealing intellectual property from another company.
A very serious implication.
Not very ethical, and where I come from, we work hard, and we do not like thiefs.
If you choose to be a rebel, and disagree, so be it.
I however, trust the system, and will let the judge decide.
When the judges gavel falls, its ultimately a no-win situation, for the entire hobby as a whole.
In the mean-time, Im rooting for ethics and honesty over thievery.

 

[CoinShooter01]

1. How much R&D did Nokta engage in when developing the Legend?
You seem to have some sort of insider knowledge to that regard; I'm just interested in learning how you came to have information that, to my understanding, isn't public.

2. Why would it take Nokta several years to bring the product to market, if all they did was copy someone else's product?

3. Are the updates improvements upon someone else's design?
If they are, then that someone else doesn't have much of a leg to stand on. If they aren't, then that someone else has no leg to stand on.
Unless, of course, that someone else is willing to imply that their design was less than stellar to begin with, or that efforts to copy it were so dismal that they failed; in which case the claims of infringement wouldn't have any teeth.

4. How could Nokta engineers release subsequently better updates, for the Legend, without having some degree of knowledge (research/development) of the software driving the Legend?
Is it pure, blind, luck?

5. If Minelab decides to offer a metal detector that doesn't leak, or coils that don't break, will you celebrate a lawsuit against them?

I get the fact that you're not a fan of Nokta. Nothing wrong with you not being a fan. What I don't get is why you seem to think you've somehow been harmed by Nokta, or why you would celebrate actions that have the potential to undermine the people who metal detect.

This thread is about a company stealing intellectual property from another company.
A very serious implication.
Not very ethical, and where I come from, we work hard, and we do not like thiefs.
If you choose to be a rebel, and disagree, so be it.
I however, trust the system, and will let the judge decide.
When the judges gavel falls, its ultimately a no-win situation, for the entire hobby as a whole.
In the mean-time, Im rooting for ethics and honesty over thievery.

 

[Tahts-a-dats-ago]

This thread is about a company stealing intellectual property from another company.
A very serious implication.
Not very ethical, and where I come from, we work hard, and we do not like thiefs.
If you choose to be a rebel, and disagree, so be it.
I however, trust the system, and will let the judge decide.
When the judges gavel falls, its ultimately a no-win situation, for the entire hobby as a whole.
In the mean-time, Im rooting for ethics and honesty over thievery.

Your opening line is speculation at best.
Minelab has, in a manner of speaking, made an accusation. That is what is known.

How true that accusation is, is not known. It may never be known.

What can be stated with a high degree of certainty is that you have no idea of how much research/development Nokta put into the Legend. It can also be stated, with a very high degree of certainty, that you have no clue as to whether the accusations, leveled by Minelab, have merit.

In the midst of trusting the system, have you forgotten the fact that a key component to that system is the presumption of innocence (on behalf of the accused)?

In rooting for ethics and honesty, you've forgotten to apply them to your own statements. An oversight? Something else?

You don't like Nokta for some reason. OK.

You think the Equinox is the better machine. OK again.

I own both and prefer the Legend. That too, is OK.

 

[Tahts-a-dats-ago]

My neighbor has the legend, and he has me do all the updates, because it frustrates him.
We have extensively compared his legend to my Nox,in the parks we both hunt.
We both agree, the Nox is much better, especially with masking.
He borrows my Nox all the time.
I have never borrowed his legend!
But this thread is not about which machine is better.
We already know the answer to that.

I bought a CTX3030 shortly after they were released. I found that machine to be extremely frustrating - couldn't gel with it at all. Didn't like it at all and ended up selling it.

Does that mean the CTX3030 isn't a good machine?

Could it be a matter of my frustration getting in the way?

Just curious.

 

[oldkoot]

Your getting very side tracked and completely off topic, with your "legend is best theory"

This thread is about a company stealing intellectual property from another company.
A very serious implication.
Not very ethical, and where I come from, we work hard, and we dont like thiefs.
If you choose to be a rebel, and disagree, so be it.

And to answer your question, ...

My neighbor has the legend, and he has me do all the updates, because it frustrates him.
We have extensively compared his legend to my Nox,in the parks we both hunt.
We both agree, the Nox is much better, especially with masking.
He borrows my Nox all the time.
I have never borrowed his legend!
But this thread is not about which machine is better.
We already know the answer to that.

Back on topic...

This thread is about a company stealing intellectual property from another company.
A very serious implication.
Not very ethical, and where I come from, we work hard, and we do not like thiefs.
If you choose to be a rebel, and disagree, so be it.
I however, trust the system, and will let the judge decide.
When the judges gavel falls, its ultimately a no-win situation, for the entire hobby as a whole.
In the mean-time, Im rooting for ethics and honesty over thievery.

Where in the crap did you see any where in my reply that I stated the Legend is best or that Nokta/Macro was best ???, point it out I have said nothing to that affect, by your own thread and the way you started this thread plainly says you want Mine Lab to win a law suit and for Nokta/Macro to go away why ??, personally I do not want either of them doing lawsuits against each other, I want all the named companies to succeed MineLab, Nokta/Macro, Xp, Garrett ,Fisher all of them because what you do not seem to get with all those competing against each other to build a better product it forces everyone of those manufacturers to give us all a great detector at a great price, Nokta/Macro has done it with the Simplex and the Legend, Garrett has done it with the emergence of the Axiom so why can Mine Lab not do the same why because for the longest time mine lab held the top dog status and figured they could do what ever they wanted and now that is no longer the case, because the other companies have forced their hand,to come out with a quality built Product at a cheaper price, why that one statement chaps peoples behind I will never understand, other then the fact those that spent their hard earned money and received an inferior product are embarrassed about it, as far as detection capabilities the Nox 600 and the 800 changed the game but the build quality of both were sub par in fact I would personally consider them a fail just because of the poor build quality.

as for my statement if Mine Lab continues with their law suit I personally hope Nokta/Macro turns around and throws a counter suit up for mine Lab installing flash lights and vibrating grips on the 3 new releases
Do I actually want that hell no because in the end we as detectorist will be the losers plain and simple

 

[oldkoot]

Coinshooter01 your statement​

My neighbor has the legend, and he has me do all the updates, because it frustrates him.
We have extensively compared his legend to my Nox,in the parks we both hunt.
We both agree, the Nox is much better, especially with masking.
He borrows my Nox all the time.
I have never borrowed his legend!
But this thread is not about which machine is better.
We already know the answer to that.

as to your statement I have friends that all have Equinox 600s and 800 the 600 is no comparison however all of my friends will tell you there is very little if any difference between the Nox 800 and the legend they are pretty much equal in detection capabilities you just need to know how to set them up, which obviously you and your friend have not taken the time to do, go back to school and learn how to set the Legend up, then you will find every statement you have made is a pigment of your warped imagination

as for your statement of theft mine lab did the same thing with pulse technology but I do not call it theft I call it progression if someone takes someone else's tech and improves on that tech it is called progress plain and simple

​

 

[oldkoot]

1. How much R&D did Nokta engage in when developing the Legend?
You seem to have some sort of insider knowledge to that regard; I'm just interested in learning how you came to have information that, to my understanding, isn't public.

2. Why would it take Nokta several years to bring the product to market, if all they did was copy someone else's product?

3. Are the updates improvements upon someone else's design?
If they are, then that someone else doesn't have much of a leg to stand on. If they aren't, then that someone else has no leg to stand on.
Unless, of course, that someone else is willing to imply that their design was less than stellar to begin with, or that efforts to copy it were so dismal that they failed; in which case the claims of infringement wouldn't have any teeth.

4. How could Nokta engineers release subsequently better updates, for the Legend, without having some degree of knowledge (research/development) of the software driving the Legend?
Is it pure, blind, luck?

5. If Minelab decides to offer a metal detector that doesn't leak, or coils that don't break, will you celebrate a lawsuit against them?

I get the fact that you're not a fan of Nokta. Nothing wrong with you not being a fan. What I don't get is why you seem to think you've somehow been harmed by Nokta, or why you would celebrate actions that have the potential to undermine the people who metal detect.

the answer to #2 Nokta and Macro were two different companies at one time then they both merged together and became Nokta/Macro both companies were owned by two brothers a few years prior to the emergence of the Nox 800 and 600 Nokta and Macro were talking about developing a multi frequency detector from my understanding which begs to question how did mine Lab beat them to it a spy from mine lab maybe who actually knows Nokta and Macro had been developing a multi frequency for a long time it just took them years to bring it to light and when the Nox emerged and became reality Nokta/Macro pushed forward the only thing from my understanding that was holding Nokta/Macro back and XP for that matter was patents which mine Lab had Mine Lab let those patents Laps or something and Nokta/macro and XP pushed forward when what ever happened with mine labs patents happened, you cannot infringe on a patent if the patent was already let go and was no longer in affect.

anyone that thinks Nokta/Macro hasnt had a multi frequency in the works for some time is blind when mine lab messed up and lost there Patents XP and Nokta/Macro both jumped and took advantage of a patent that was no longer in affect plain and simple

 

[Grunter]

I sure hope Nokta issues another update like maybe increasing the VDI scales before they have to cease and desist.

 

[DigDog]

Oldkoot you sound like me now lol
I’ve been down this road with him before exactly everything you said,he says that I somehow don’t like Minelab whereas I’ve had Minelab, I say I like Minelab,I’m looking to buy a Minelab,I’ve had great things to say about Minelab.
I would like to see him actually post on here those exact things about Nokta Makro and the legend does he like Nokta Makro? Is he possibly interested in getting a legend? Does he have anything good to say about the legend?
If not, what the heck is he doing posting on the Nokta Makro in Legend forums continuously, and all negative at that.
The only thing negative that I’ve mentioned is that their equinoxes have a leak issue and that’s a big problem for me using it around water, and that I think they are little overpriced and wish they would come down some, heck who doesn’t think they are a bit expensive and wish they would be less. But nonetheless i say they are good and looking to get one.
On the other hand, just as you’ve mentioned, doesn’t have a NM, has no intention of getting a NM, has not said one good thing about the Legend or Nokta Makro.everything with him is one-sided. we at least say we like the legend we like Minelab, they both have some issues of course, but I think all brands have a good detectors and have some issues.
He is obviously purely bias and has hatred towards Nokta Makro. Who is he trying to fool all you have do is read all his posts everywhere.
He won’t outright admit anything he plays with words for example, he actually did have to admit the leak with the equinox, but he said that Minelab admitted it and they only have leaks on 0.01% of detectors. Everybody knows that’s full of crap.
I just challenged him to say some good things about the legend you’ve seen his answers. The only one that’s decent is that the Legend improved their speakers, and to my point at least Nokta Makro did something right away to better an issue unlike Minelab with the equinox and the leaking. his answer was well. They did do something, five years later they came out with the 700 and 900. really that’s a solution to a problem five years later you come out with another model.
Everything he says is just so ridiculous and over-the-top and he has a couple Minelab fanboys, the same ones that always come to the rescue and defend what he says
He started all this with coming onto Nokta Makro forums the legend forums and posting all this stuff, negative stuff about this problem with the legend,that problem with the legend this problem, Nokta Makro, and then I mention one thing that’s obvious even Minelab users admit that the equinox has a leak, and all of a sudden him and his buddies call me out that I’m bashing Minelab somehow.
I’m glad people are finally starting to take notice and speak up that he is just starting crap trying to put down Nokta Makro in the legend. I just challenge him again to say something about the legend using the word “good”in the sentence. but obviously has no shame let’s see what he comes back with probably something totally ridiculous again but obviously has no shame.
Ive been pushing back when he starts his crap but ive got a life and things to do. I offered as i said” look ill make you a deal, stop posting negative stuff about NM and the legend all the time, no reason to continually do it and since you obviously don’t like me pointing out the leak issue i will completely stop mentioning the leak issue with the Nox”
His reply was “ No Way”
Well why the heck not? Because he just wants to bash NM and the legend i assume out of pure hatred. Cant think why else he must constantly do it. Maybe someone at NM or a legend owner slept with his partner, who the heck knows.
And now the latest thing about the lawsuit, right before that was software issues, before that speaker issues.
Always something for again a guy who never used one and has no intention of getting one.
Why do i talk about ML and get involved?
Because im a ML customer and looking to get another, same as oldkoot.
But if I all of a sudden went on say XP ‘s forums and continuously kept posting negative stuff, never having, using or interest in getting on im sure XP people would say, “what the heck are you doing” and more im sure.
Just look at his threads. He opened up this can of worms and doesn’t like when someone pushes back.
Going to offer again drop it and move on and won’t get any pushback.

 

[DigDog]

Trust me i really don’t have the time to keep doing this crap. I don’t want to keep going back and forth, why do you?

 

[oldkoot]

I sure hope Nokta issues another update like maybe increasing the VDI scales before they have to cease and desist.

i am hoping for that also among a couple of other things they need to improve upon the Threshold being one and the ground balance being the other which I use both of those, dont know if they can increase TID range or not but it would be nice if they could, if they had a wider range of TIDs i would have never ordered a Manticore

 

[oldkoot]

Trust me i really don’t have the time to keep doing this crap. I don’t want to keep going back and forth, why do you?

trust me I did not want to get into this thread at all but it set me off wrong, I do have a manticore ordered and a Axiom thinking about the 900 Nox but I will wait on the 900 for a bit and see how many get drowned or not the Manticore may be all I need, wonder if any 900s do drown will get reported LOL, I do like the Legend a lot but there are a couple of things I would like improved upon it is not perfect yet but it is getting there, there will never be a be all end all detector in my lifetime but some are just closer then others, I do not know if it is true or not but I have heard some say that VLF tech is at its best it can be all we can do is hope not.