It's likely he also has an account on DU. Those types always try to relate with the other side (neighbor with a legend) so they can state the opinions from an echo chamber (any fanboy platform) as facts.
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NOKTA MAKRO (LEGEND) GETTING SUED - PATENT INFRINGEMENT
- Thread starter CoinShooter01
- Start date
- Status
DigDog
Well-known member
I don’t know either but having the legend and not doing any prospecting i plan on getting a 700. They claim using smf the 700 and 900 are identical its only when you use the single frequencies 20khz and 40khz for prospecting that they are different along with few other adjustable features that personally I won’t use, so for me its seems the best option.
As for leaking i don’t see that happening, if it does ML has alot to worry about.
I will wait to see if there are any other issues and bugs to be worked out.
Just like whenever a new model cell phone comes out there are those who have to get it first, i always wait again just to see how it does in comparison to its predecessor. With all electronics there is usually something. Very rare to have any electronics that are perfect. Although some on here think otherwise lol. I liken it to like kids blinded by love lol
DigDog
Well-known member
He did just mention, just a couple days ago I believe, on one of the threads he was in another metal detecting site and left and came here. I was wondering the same when i read that.
He is a member on Friendly MD forum and Detector Prospector. Steve shut him down quick on that one. DU = Democratic Underground
SamBrinton
New member
you got problem with theives?
oldkoot
Well-known member
ya Steve runs a tight ship on detector prospector dont know him personally but seems like a good dude and highly knowledgeable about detectors and gold detection he has been at it a long long time he and Gerry are the two I listen to when it comes to gold detectors and the reason I ordered a Axiom they were both testers of it and both straight shooters
SamBrinton
New member
everyone know that legend is best metal detector in world
so what if it steals from others
who cares bout ethics
we save a little money and haave best detector in world
so what if it steals from others
who cares bout ethics
we save a little money and haave best detector in world
DigDog
Well-known member
Sam were not even saying its the best, thats everyone personal opinion what they think is better. ML puts out a good product so does NM.
This is about a bias hater starting crap and it’s getting pretty old
DigDog
Well-known member
Well well… no surprise here. Figured something like that happened
oldkoot
Well-known member
do not even reply to that person he is new and another one stirring the pot, wouldnt even be surprised if its the hater coming in with a new user name LOL
I've always wondered the same thing. I wish some real world review's would be done, by a few competent detectorist. To give us a idea of there performance capabilities. Some Chinese copy's, are better than the original.
I agree that Steve is a wealth of knowledge, I have his book on the Nox600-800, & his real world review, on the nox600' & it's capabilities on vary small gold using the 6" coil, was one of main reasons I went with the 600 & 6" coil over the 800. Plus I got a killer deal lol. I took a leap of faith, & pre ordered the Legend late last year, & now just ordered my second Legend, over the Nox, for my wife. I really do hope, Nokta keeps updating the Legend, no matter what the outcome of the lawsuit is.
DigDog
Well-known member
I like the one, what do you call 2,000 lawyers anchored at the bottom of the ocean? A good start.
Interesting if you think this state is not as bad or lethal as say the KGB you are mistaken.
They use nerve agents, we just use drones with collateral damage.
Our saying go bold or go home.
They control the media to control people now we do the same.
Its no different anywhere you go.
vlad
Well-known member
Under democrat control that seems true: 0bama targeted and killed an American citizen in Yemen with a missile who had never been accused, charged or indited in a US court or been served with papers: but it was election time here. (And an unarmed female vet was killed in cold blood Jan. 6th here. I'd like to believe with republicans in charge of the House things will change, but from experience I know better--many of them are members along with dems of the Party of Govt.)
DigDog
Well-known member
Politician’s/leaders for most part don’t get into it to help people but rather to be the elite.
They are all the same no matter the party.
Take Ukraine for example, Fk Ukraine,
They say, Mr Zelenski don’t worry we will help, i want to introduce you to my buddy mr. Ratheon he will help you with whatever you need.
If they really wanted to help here they would say mr Zelenski, sorry dude here is an extra vest and helmet, good luck to ya.
They are no different than the dealer
they just released.
All in the name of democracy. Our democracy is in the middle of Nebraska in a silo. The rest is corrupt to the core.
Carl-NC
Active member
A lot of people are opining on this lawsuit without even knowing what the lawsuit is about. The patent in question (US7579839) basically says:
"A metal detector with a switched-voltage transmitter (basically all multifrequency designs) with synchronous demodulators (basically all metal detectors) whereby the user can change frequencies."
The Legend likely infringes this patent, but then so does the Garrett Apex, XP Deus II, White's V3. and probably models from AKA and Rutus. A question comes to mind: why sue NM and not the others? Possibly because NM has made a significant dent in Minelab sales, possibly because they are perceived as being an easier target, or possibly this is a warm-up for the other companies.
The V3 is an interesting case because it would be the first detector to infringe this patent -- the DFX did not, nor did the Fisher CZ, as neither had selectable frequencies. Yet Minelab did not sue White's; they did not even send a cease-&-desist letter (the normal step before filing a lawsuit), I was there at the time. Patent '839 was filed during the development of the V3 and that was in the days of "first to invent" rules, meaning that if White's could show they knew of the concept before the patent was filed, they would be in the clear. And, indeed, that was the case; I recall a development document written by Mark Rowan that predates the patent. If Garrett inherited this document then they can probably fend off a lawsuit as well.
Other companies (like NM) may not be so lucky. If they choose to fight the suit they will have to directly challenge the patent, which ain't easy or cheap. But there's loads of prior art to look at, not only metal detectors but eddy flaw detectors, vending machines, and even slot machines. You'd be surprised at what's been patented that uses the exact same technology as hobby detectors. And then there is the question as to whether '839 even rises to patentability based on whether there was an inventive step or lack of obviousness. And I think that last one would be a winner, as synchronous demodulation that follows the frequency selection has been around for decades. But it may be cheaper for NM to simply agree to a licensing deal with Minelab, especially since the patent expires in 2 years.
Other comments:
"A metal detector with a switched-voltage transmitter (basically all multifrequency designs) with synchronous demodulators (basically all metal detectors) whereby the user can change frequencies."
The Legend likely infringes this patent, but then so does the Garrett Apex, XP Deus II, White's V3. and probably models from AKA and Rutus. A question comes to mind: why sue NM and not the others? Possibly because NM has made a significant dent in Minelab sales, possibly because they are perceived as being an easier target, or possibly this is a warm-up for the other companies.
The V3 is an interesting case because it would be the first detector to infringe this patent -- the DFX did not, nor did the Fisher CZ, as neither had selectable frequencies. Yet Minelab did not sue White's; they did not even send a cease-&-desist letter (the normal step before filing a lawsuit), I was there at the time. Patent '839 was filed during the development of the V3 and that was in the days of "first to invent" rules, meaning that if White's could show they knew of the concept before the patent was filed, they would be in the clear. And, indeed, that was the case; I recall a development document written by Mark Rowan that predates the patent. If Garrett inherited this document then they can probably fend off a lawsuit as well.
Other companies (like NM) may not be so lucky. If they choose to fight the suit they will have to directly challenge the patent, which ain't easy or cheap. But there's loads of prior art to look at, not only metal detectors but eddy flaw detectors, vending machines, and even slot machines. You'd be surprised at what's been patented that uses the exact same technology as hobby detectors. And then there is the question as to whether '839 even rises to patentability based on whether there was an inventive step or lack of obviousness. And I think that last one would be a winner, as synchronous demodulation that follows the frequency selection has been around for decades. But it may be cheaper for NM to simply agree to a licensing deal with Minelab, especially since the patent expires in 2 years.
Other comments:
- Minelab has been fairly successful in lawsuits, and they now have a boatload of patents to pick from. Some are really good patents, some are really weak.
- Two of the successes came on patent US7310586 (the use of wireless technology in metal detectors) vs White's & XP. It's one of those patents that should have never gotten by the examiner based on obviousness. This is a key problem with the US patent office: examiners who have no idea what they are looking at. It's why prescription drugs cost so much.
- I don't recall that Minelab sued Fisher. The story I heard is they sent a cease-&-desist letter to Fisher, and Fisher replied with evidence that the CZ did not infringe. Minelab went away, no lawsuit.
- The Legend is not a copy of the Equinox. It may imitate the Equinox in many ways but that's been the story of hobby detectors since 1960. All of the Equinox's secrets are in software and NM engineers had to figure out a lot of things in order to get even close to an Equinox. The fact that they did so well in their inaugural MF release is simply incredible.
- Fisher did not invent the concept of MF, neither did Minelab. There is a Westinghouse MF patent from 1972, and another one even earlier than that (don't recall it offhand).
- I don't recall that White's & Garrett sued each other over VLF motion disc, which was invented by George Payne while he was at Bounty Hunter.
- White's sued Payne when he left to create Teknetics, and they lost on a technicality: they failed to have Payne sign a second no-compete agreement when he was re-hired from Bounty Hunter.
- About 2/3rds of Minelab's revenue is from metal detection, and about half of that is from hobby & gold. So, no, it's not a sideline.
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DigDog
Well-known member
So interesting info but what is the right thing to do here. Should ML continue to sue everyone every time a new detector comes out that competes with them?
If they had their way they would be the only company that sells smf metal detectors and probably charge higher than reasonable prices.
Even if you are strictly a ML fan i don’t see how ML being the only player is a good thing even aside from cost.
The Coin Magician
Well-known member
Metal Detector makers have been copying each others idea's for decades , copying circuits and other design aspects. .What's new. .
Carl-NC
Active member
Minelab is a for-profit business and, in fact, publicly traded so its priority is its shareholders. That's true of most companies. If ML can use the patent system to restrict competition and make more money then that's what they should be expected to do. And if they can create a de facto monopoly then, again, expect that, too. Keep in mind that patents aren't forever, they expire after 20 years. But drug companies have been gaming the patent system by making a minor tweak to an expiring patent and getting another 20 years out of it.
Other detector companies can also play this game if they choose. Problem is, most of them are badly lagging ML in R&D and don't have much to patent. Garrett has patents on their ProPointer design that could be used to shut down all the clones but they don't even enforce the patents. I filed several patents at White's and 1 at FTP, probably nothing will ever be done with them. That's the other thing about patents: they only give you the right to sue someone. Doing so has a starting cost of about $100,000 so you better have deep pockets or a guaranteed winning case.
Minelab is playing the corporate game like a real corporation, not a mom&pop garage operation. No, the detecting community doesn't benefit from this at all, but that's how the rules of the game are set up.
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