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Metal detecting illegal on high school grounds.....???
- Thread starter Marc-Montana
- Start date
I go in and introduce myself to the principle and explain what I'm doing and how I do it. I also give them my name and phone number if they wish (they are more worried about sex offenders than shootings up here). And I have never had a problem. I was way out on the edge of a large school practice field once while a foot ball practice was being played out on the infield. I have my hand digger and head phones on, bothering no one. When I was walking out I heard one of the practice coaches bark out ''I'm glad that ass...e is gone!''. There were young ladies and a few other support staff there. For a second a flash of anger went through me and I was going to walk over and ask who the big mouth was, as I'm a big guy. Then etiquette and keeping a low profile for the hobby made me stop. I debated telling the school board about the time\date\event. But Karma has a way of filling the gaps over time. I pick my battles.
It's illegal to hunt anywhere without permission. Bad thing is if you always try and get permission then you wont be doing much hunting. Modern schools aren't worth it unless there's gold there. And don't ever go while kids are there. Times have changed. If I want clad I will get it at the local convenient store and cash in my dollar bills. My time is worth more than that. I hunt out of the way old home sites mostly. I find better coins with less problems. Good camo really helps to. I know I will get static for this post but these are the facts. I carry 2 detectors with me and sometime get permission by offering the owner to come along and hunt. Most people are afraid you will find something of value and have a mental block about someone digging up something of value and leaving with it, even though they would rather leave it in the ground forever.
I've done a lot of detecting in a rec field adjacent to a grammar school. I wear a white hardhat and a yellow and orange safety vest. I've been there many times over the past year when teachers have brought their classes of kids out to run around the football field I'm detecting. I completely ignore the kids except to keep out of their way and keep my head down and keep "working". I've been approached once by a pickup truck of city workers who asked if they could help me. They thought I was from the local power company. When I told them what I was doing, they were only interested in what I was finding and gave me tips on where else to look. I've become part of the landscape and feel completely at ease there now.
I agree with keeping a low profile and have moved stealthily also depending on the site. I call this hiding in plain site. Look like you belong where you are and people wil usually leave you alone.
I agree with keeping a low profile and have moved stealthily also depending on the site. I call this hiding in plain site. Look like you belong where you are and people wil usually leave you alone.
JHM said:
JHM, where did you get this information? Why would you think that? Would you say the same thing about flying frisbees, that "permission is needed" before a person can fly one? (afterall, you might poke someone's eye out). This automatic assumption that detecting is evil and needs permission, is to have lost the battle, before you even start.
Thus, no, you do not "need permission" to hunt anywhere. If there's nothing that says "no detecting", then presto, it must not be prohibited. It's "implied permission", since it's not a prohibited activity.
Certainly if you to go some princely power and ask: "can I metal detect?", they may say either "yes" or "no", but to me, that does not imply that: "therefore, their permission was needed, simply because they gave a yes or a no". It doesn't work like that. Never does someone answer like this: "That's silly, why are you asking me? You don't need my permission". Instead, they will bestow on your their princely "yes" or "no", simply because you asked. I mean, the mere fact you are standing their in front of them asking, simply implies that their permission was needed, to begin with (lest why would you be asking?). This is not subconsciously lost on the hearer. And the mere fact you think you need to ask, implies that something is inherently wrong, or damaging, or askew, lest why would you be asking, if it were an innocous harmless activity? This too is not lost on the hearer, thus they answer the "pressing question", with a "no", just to be safe.
No, you do not "need permission", unless there were a specific rule that said "no detecting".
Hi Marc,
I ready through most of the posts, but did skip a few, they all seemed to be making the same point; don't hunt during school hours.
My suggestion would be to set up a short appointment to meet with the Asst. Principal, apologize for the incident and your "newness" to the hobby, then ask if there would be a time that would be ok to hunt the property. Perhaps bring a liability release form and permission form, it looks professional, too. Maybe she'll give you permission to hunt, and suggest times that would be more appropriate. The worst thing that can happen is the answer stays "no", but it's worth a try.
I'm sure the kids were all watching you through the windows, and that's probably what caused the problem.
GL and HH,
Pony
I ready through most of the posts, but did skip a few, they all seemed to be making the same point; don't hunt during school hours.
My suggestion would be to set up a short appointment to meet with the Asst. Principal, apologize for the incident and your "newness" to the hobby, then ask if there would be a time that would be ok to hunt the property. Perhaps bring a liability release form and permission form, it looks professional, too. Maybe she'll give you permission to hunt, and suggest times that would be more appropriate. The worst thing that can happen is the answer stays "no", but it's worth a try.
I'm sure the kids were all watching you through the windows, and that's probably what caused the problem.
GL and HH,
Pony
BigCatDaddy
New member
Metal Detector's Code of Ethics
1. Respect the rights and property of others
2. Do not detect without the land owner's permission
3. Observe all laws, whether National, State, or Local
4. Aid Law Enforcement Officials whenever possible
5. Never destroy historical or archeological structures
6. Never destroy, damage or deface public or private property, or what is left of ghost towns
or deserted structures
7. Leave land and vegetation as it was
8. Remove and properly dispose of all trash and litter when you leave
9. Leave gates and enclosures as found
10. Do not tamper with land owner signs, sturctural facilities, or equipment
11. Take precautions when digging towards a target where underground conditions are
unknown.
12. All metal detectorists may be judged by the example you set. Always
conduct yourself in a manner that is courteous with consideration for others.
13. ALWAYS COVER YOUR HOLES!
1. Respect the rights and property of others
2. Do not detect without the land owner's permission
3. Observe all laws, whether National, State, or Local
4. Aid Law Enforcement Officials whenever possible
5. Never destroy historical or archeological structures
6. Never destroy, damage or deface public or private property, or what is left of ghost towns
or deserted structures
7. Leave land and vegetation as it was
8. Remove and properly dispose of all trash and litter when you leave
9. Leave gates and enclosures as found
10. Do not tamper with land owner signs, sturctural facilities, or equipment
11. Take precautions when digging towards a target where underground conditions are
unknown.
12. All metal detectorists may be judged by the example you set. Always
conduct yourself in a manner that is courteous with consideration for others.
13. ALWAYS COVER YOUR HOLES!
Seems to me that the FASTEST way to get a "no", is to put a waiver of liability (legal forms) in front of someone to sign. Just conjurs up "dangerous" or "risky" that you had to do that. Ie.: just a big hassle. I mean, if someone else goes there to jog the track, use the swingsets, etc.... after hours, then .... they probably don't "get permission" or "sign contracts" to do those things, right? Yes, this assumes the schools in this OPs post have such activity there. Not sure. I know that in my area, all the schools have fences. (came about in the early 1980s, it seems). But there's always still a turn-style entry (or wide opening in the gate, etc... ) where you can still go in. And I see kids there (flying a kite, joggers, basketball, etc...) on Saturdays, for instance.
I think the OP's issue was NOT that he was doing something "illegal", but simply that he stuck out like a sore thumb, and just got someone in a bad mood. I mean, let's face it fellows, we're in an odd hobby, that has connotations. So less visibility is the answer, not more visibility.
Oh, and as for the code-of-ethics that Marc posts: Some people have interpretted the part about "obeying/knowing all laws", to mean: "go ask permission" or "go ask can I?". This is not necessarily the case. A person can avail himself of obedience to laws, by looking them up for himself. If he sees nothing that says "no metal detecting", then presto, it's not prohibited
I think the OP's issue was NOT that he was doing something "illegal", but simply that he stuck out like a sore thumb, and just got someone in a bad mood. I mean, let's face it fellows, we're in an odd hobby, that has connotations. So less visibility is the answer, not more visibility.
Oh, and as for the code-of-ethics that Marc posts: Some people have interpretted the part about "obeying/knowing all laws", to mean: "go ask permission" or "go ask can I?". This is not necessarily the case. A person can avail himself of obedience to laws, by looking them up for himself. If he sees nothing that says "no metal detecting", then presto, it's not prohibited
big-cat-daddy, is there anything in that version of the code-of-ethics, that you feel contradicts what I am saying? If so, I am interested to know. Because I do not find anything in there, that says we need to go ask permission to hunt on public land, if there were/are no rules/laws that say "no metal detecting".
Look again at #3: "Observe all laws, whether National, State, or Local"
Great. Fine. Wonderful. And do you know how you find out what those laws are? You look them up for yourself. NOT by going and asking a desk-bound bureaucrat "can I metal detect?" (lest you risk him telling you "no", when nothing specific really says that).
Now if you were meaning to imply that #2 implies that we need to ask permission for public places, no. I do not interpret #2 to mean that. It says: "Do not detect without the land owner's permission"
I interpret that to be talking about private property, not public property. And to the extent (even to grant-the-point), that it could be skewed to mean public land too, then think about it big-cat: The rules governing that public land are ALREADY spelled out in the laws, codes, rules, etc... that you can ALREADY look up. And if there is no prohibition, and you've done your due-dilengence to find that out, then that IS "permission". If something is not prohibited (flying frisbees, skipping stones on the pond, etc...), then no, one does not think he "needs permission" to do something for which there is no prohibition. It is "implied permission".
Look again at #3: "Observe all laws, whether National, State, or Local"
Great. Fine. Wonderful. And do you know how you find out what those laws are? You look them up for yourself. NOT by going and asking a desk-bound bureaucrat "can I metal detect?" (lest you risk him telling you "no", when nothing specific really says that).
Now if you were meaning to imply that #2 implies that we need to ask permission for public places, no. I do not interpret #2 to mean that. It says: "Do not detect without the land owner's permission"
I interpret that to be talking about private property, not public property. And to the extent (even to grant-the-point), that it could be skewed to mean public land too, then think about it big-cat: The rules governing that public land are ALREADY spelled out in the laws, codes, rules, etc... that you can ALREADY look up. And if there is no prohibition, and you've done your due-dilengence to find that out, then that IS "permission". If something is not prohibited (flying frisbees, skipping stones on the pond, etc...), then no, one does not think he "needs permission" to do something for which there is no prohibition. It is "implied permission".
Robert2300
New member
Most schools are off limits no matter WHERE you go. I have
asked permission on more than one occasion and they always
say no. Only one let me detect on a gravel lot they had. One
custodian drove by a couple time to make sure I was keeping
my word and staying off the grass. Another school very close
by has a large area not fenced in and let me detect there but not
on the foot ball fields or soccer fields.
Robert2300
asked permission on more than one occasion and they always
say no. Only one let me detect on a gravel lot they had. One
custodian drove by a couple time to make sure I was keeping
my word and staying off the grass. Another school very close
by has a large area not fenced in and let me detect there but not
on the foot ball fields or soccer fields.
Robert2300
BigCatDaddy
New member
OK, I snagged a slightly different Code of Ethics. Please check Page 51 of your AT Pro manual or Page 59 of the AT Gold manual. It says"
ChrisK7UND
New member
I have a feeling the over reaction was due to it being school hours and with all the school issues that have occurred in our nation, they were just acting to protect this kids in the school even though you clearly were not up to no good. I wouldn't take it personal. I wrote our school district for permission before ever stepping foot on the grounds and they were very open to my being there, just NOT, I repeat NOT during school hours. I agreed that would not happen.
Hope this helps,
Hope this helps,
big-cat, thanx for the reply. Your version here of the code-of-ethics has amongst its points:
"I will ..... do no metal detecting on these lands without proper permission."
I interpret "proper permission" to mean for a person to have checked the laws (if he is skittish and wonders). And if there is no law saying "no metal detectors", then ... THAT is "proper permission". Because if an activity is not prohibited (flying frisbees for instance), then no, you do not "need permission". If that code of ethics author is trying to say we should all go ask permission of places for which there is no prohibition, then I whole-heartedly disagree with that.
You therefore ask:
"I don't quite understand what you have against asking permission to go on public lands to hunt"
The problem with asking permission, for places in which it's not needed (places that don't have any such prohibitions), is you risk a "no", when there's no rule really saying such a thing. You know the drill all-too-well Big-cat: Some desk-bound bureaucrat morphs something else to apply, and bestows on you their princely "no", because they think you'll harm the earthworms, or the "no collecting and harvesting" clauses, or because they think you'll dig up the sprinklers (which of course you WON'T), and so forth. And the sad part is: In a lot of cases of such "no's", the harsh truth is, NO ONE EVER CARED. In other words, you risk becoming a victim of "no one cared UNTILL you asked".
Next you ask:
"Why would anyone want to constantly be looking over their shoulder, wondering if and when you were going to get run off and give our great hobby yet another black eye. "
Well, I have news for you: there has been no shortage of people who got a "yes" from city hall somewhere, and still got grief from a gardener, cop, ranger, or miss-lookie-lou at the park. And when the md'r proudly whips out his "permission" slip, guess what happens to that permission when the cop or gardener or counsel-man gets on his cell-phone, calls down to city hall, and says ".... but he's tearing the place up" ? I guess what I'm trying to say is, ... no matter permission (as if it were needed) or no permission, you and I ALWAYS use discretion, proper timing, avoid being in the middle of deep retrievals when busy-bodies are watching, etc.... Right? Besides, even if there was and is the "comfort factor" of knowing you "have permission" (as if it were needed), you know full well you still can't waltz nilly willy through base-ball games going on, over beach-blankets, etc... Thus we all use a little ... uh .... discretion. And to the degree where perhaps being able whip a permission slip out of your pocket HAS deflected a busy-body cop, then I still say that the times this can (admittedly) happen, it does not out-weigh the risk of getting a "no", where there is no rule saying such a thing.
For example Big-cat: In my town, I can go to any city park here and detect. And assuming I'm not being a nuisance in some way, or sticking out like a sore-thumb begging for scrutiny from a gardener or something, I am always unbothered. And there is no written rule in our city that says "no metal detecting. HOWEVER: Back in the early 1980s, a newcomer to our town took it upon himself to go to city hall and ask "can I metal detect". He found someone to tell him "no". When he told the rest of us at the next monthly club meeting, the rest of us turned around, looked at him, and said "since when?" and "who told you this?". Turns out, he'd gone down and asked! But the odd thing was, detecting had just always gone on, and it was never an issue. And to this day 25+ yrs. later, you can STILL detect here, and no one cares. Do you see?? And the risk that guy posed (which is why I take my stance), is that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize, that once they pass out one "No" to a "pressing question" like this, it can actually become a policy or a B.O.L. or become a written rule (to fill a void when they realize it's not specifically addressed) and so forth. I'VE SEEN THIS HAPPEN. So you tell me, was it a good idea that that guy "asked"? No. Of course not. And it was actually sort of humorous at that club meeting, because certain skittish folks, upon hearing of this guy's city-hall answer, got all up-in-arms thinking "oh no, we can't detect the city parks anymore" and "oh no, let's go get this clarified and/or fight this", etc... While other older members thought "nonsense, you can detect parks here, it's not illegal. No one cares and I'm not stopping"
And big-cat, invariably, when this pro-&-con discussion comes up, someone is sure to give, as an example, a place where they've "gotten permission" as proof that it was a "good thing they got permission". In fact, they may even have an example like yours, where they were actually carded, and the "permission" did-in-fact deflect a busy-body. Great. That *can* happen, I agree. But you would also agree that you can risk a "no", where .....truth be told, there was nothing to have stopped you, and no one would ever have cared (till you asked).
All I can say is: anyone's examples of "yes's" (or even examples of "no's) do not mean that .... therefore "asking was necessary". This works off of the following premise: The mere fact of either answer, in some people's eyes, means that "permission was needed", lest HOW ELSE did I get that "yes" or that "no"? In other words, if they get a "no", they think "gee, it's a good thing I asked, otherwise I could have been arrested!". Or if they get a "yes", they think "gee, it's a good thing I asked, because now I can detect nilly willy to my hearts content". In other words, EITHER answer, in their eyes, simply implies that........ therefore .... Permission was "needed". Because I supppose otherwise, if you HADN'T needed permission, the desk-clerk would have said "Gee, that's funny. Why are you asking me that? You don't need my permission" But no. Human nature never works like that. The mere fact you are standing their asking for their sanction, merely infers that their permission was needed TO BEGIN WITH (lest why else would you be asking them, if their permission wasn't needed?). So instead of saying "you don't need my permission", they will bestow on you their princely "yes" or their princely "no", EVEN if it wasn't something that would ever have crossed their mind.
"I will ..... do no metal detecting on these lands without proper permission."
I interpret "proper permission" to mean for a person to have checked the laws (if he is skittish and wonders). And if there is no law saying "no metal detectors", then ... THAT is "proper permission". Because if an activity is not prohibited (flying frisbees for instance), then no, you do not "need permission". If that code of ethics author is trying to say we should all go ask permission of places for which there is no prohibition, then I whole-heartedly disagree with that.
You therefore ask:
"I don't quite understand what you have against asking permission to go on public lands to hunt"
The problem with asking permission, for places in which it's not needed (places that don't have any such prohibitions), is you risk a "no", when there's no rule really saying such a thing. You know the drill all-too-well Big-cat: Some desk-bound bureaucrat morphs something else to apply, and bestows on you their princely "no", because they think you'll harm the earthworms, or the "no collecting and harvesting" clauses, or because they think you'll dig up the sprinklers (which of course you WON'T), and so forth. And the sad part is: In a lot of cases of such "no's", the harsh truth is, NO ONE EVER CARED. In other words, you risk becoming a victim of "no one cared UNTILL you asked".
Next you ask:
"Why would anyone want to constantly be looking over their shoulder, wondering if and when you were going to get run off and give our great hobby yet another black eye. "
Well, I have news for you: there has been no shortage of people who got a "yes" from city hall somewhere, and still got grief from a gardener, cop, ranger, or miss-lookie-lou at the park. And when the md'r proudly whips out his "permission" slip, guess what happens to that permission when the cop or gardener or counsel-man gets on his cell-phone, calls down to city hall, and says ".... but he's tearing the place up" ? I guess what I'm trying to say is, ... no matter permission (as if it were needed) or no permission, you and I ALWAYS use discretion, proper timing, avoid being in the middle of deep retrievals when busy-bodies are watching, etc.... Right? Besides, even if there was and is the "comfort factor" of knowing you "have permission" (as if it were needed), you know full well you still can't waltz nilly willy through base-ball games going on, over beach-blankets, etc... Thus we all use a little ... uh .... discretion. And to the degree where perhaps being able whip a permission slip out of your pocket HAS deflected a busy-body cop, then I still say that the times this can (admittedly) happen, it does not out-weigh the risk of getting a "no", where there is no rule saying such a thing.
For example Big-cat: In my town, I can go to any city park here and detect. And assuming I'm not being a nuisance in some way, or sticking out like a sore-thumb begging for scrutiny from a gardener or something, I am always unbothered. And there is no written rule in our city that says "no metal detecting. HOWEVER: Back in the early 1980s, a newcomer to our town took it upon himself to go to city hall and ask "can I metal detect". He found someone to tell him "no". When he told the rest of us at the next monthly club meeting, the rest of us turned around, looked at him, and said "since when?" and "who told you this?". Turns out, he'd gone down and asked! But the odd thing was, detecting had just always gone on, and it was never an issue. And to this day 25+ yrs. later, you can STILL detect here, and no one cares. Do you see?? And the risk that guy posed (which is why I take my stance), is that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize, that once they pass out one "No" to a "pressing question" like this, it can actually become a policy or a B.O.L. or become a written rule (to fill a void when they realize it's not specifically addressed) and so forth. I'VE SEEN THIS HAPPEN. So you tell me, was it a good idea that that guy "asked"? No. Of course not. And it was actually sort of humorous at that club meeting, because certain skittish folks, upon hearing of this guy's city-hall answer, got all up-in-arms thinking "oh no, we can't detect the city parks anymore" and "oh no, let's go get this clarified and/or fight this", etc... While other older members thought "nonsense, you can detect parks here, it's not illegal. No one cares and I'm not stopping"
And big-cat, invariably, when this pro-&-con discussion comes up, someone is sure to give, as an example, a place where they've "gotten permission" as proof that it was a "good thing they got permission". In fact, they may even have an example like yours, where they were actually carded, and the "permission" did-in-fact deflect a busy-body. Great. That *can* happen, I agree. But you would also agree that you can risk a "no", where .....truth be told, there was nothing to have stopped you, and no one would ever have cared (till you asked).
All I can say is: anyone's examples of "yes's" (or even examples of "no's) do not mean that .... therefore "asking was necessary". This works off of the following premise: The mere fact of either answer, in some people's eyes, means that "permission was needed", lest HOW ELSE did I get that "yes" or that "no"? In other words, if they get a "no", they think "gee, it's a good thing I asked, otherwise I could have been arrested!". Or if they get a "yes", they think "gee, it's a good thing I asked, because now I can detect nilly willy to my hearts content". In other words, EITHER answer, in their eyes, simply implies that........ therefore .... Permission was "needed". Because I supppose otherwise, if you HADN'T needed permission, the desk-clerk would have said "Gee, that's funny. Why are you asking me that? You don't need my permission" But no. Human nature never works like that. The mere fact you are standing their asking for their sanction, merely infers that their permission was needed TO BEGIN WITH (lest why else would you be asking them, if their permission wasn't needed?). So instead of saying "you don't need my permission", they will bestow on you their princely "yes" or their princely "no", EVEN if it wasn't something that would ever have crossed their mind.
I have no doubt you'll find "no's", as you have, at most schools. So TOO could I find "no's" at a bunch of schools I routinely hunt, if I went in asking desk-bound city clerk jockeys too. All you need to do, is ask far enough and high enough "up the ladder". Be sure to use words like "dig", and "holes" and "treasure" and "lawsuits", and .....sure ALL of us can eventually find "no's", even at the most innocuos sandboxes we come to.
I mean.... c'mon.... !
I mean.... c'mon.... !
Before Newtown, I detected a park directly across the street from a grade school. The kids and teachers would come out at recess, cross the street and run laps around the football practice field I was detecting. I wore a safety vest, a white hard-hat, and had my license in a plastic sheath hanging around my neck. I paid no attention at all to the kids even though some slowed down when passing me and asked me questions. I pretended I was working and the teachers never approached me and asked me what I was doing. Why? because I looked like I belonged there!
After Newtown, I don't go near schools unless there's nobody there.
I have a high school within a half mile of me and there are No Trespassing signs posted on the fence surrounding it. I'm itching to detect it but will not until I get a fool-proof plan. Somehow, I have to get invited say, by a coach, teacher, or principal. I'm thinking of finding out where the teachers go for drinks after work and making myself part of the scene maybe by buying a round or two. Any of you got any other ideas???
After Newtown, I don't go near schools unless there's nobody there.
I have a high school within a half mile of me and there are No Trespassing signs posted on the fence surrounding it. I'm itching to detect it but will not until I get a fool-proof plan. Somehow, I have to get invited say, by a coach, teacher, or principal. I'm thinking of finding out where the teachers go for drinks after work and making myself part of the scene maybe by buying a round or two. Any of you got any other ideas???
Depends on how I feel. Sometimes I will just detect. Other times I have made it a point to go in to see the principal, explain who I am, were I'm from, and what I'm doing. Because I am used to having criminal record/vulnerable sector background checks, it does not bother me to give the priciple some basic info, often including my phone number. I have done both, I play it by ear. Once or twice I have been asked to come back after school is out, and that"s what I did. Schools are a dime a dozen so I don't sweat it.
DWerk
Well-known member
I have been detecting schools for years with no problems. I have made it a point when detecting the middle and grade school grounds to clean out all metal from under and around the playground equipment. They use wood chips (new ones added every spring) on the playground; although the chippers are scanned with magnets that does not get the ground up pop and beer cans. I have made it a point that if a school official comes around to show them the dangerous stuff I have removed from the area. I had one area that had so much crap that the School Principle closed down the playground and asked me to search the area well as I could for the safety of the children. Of course I did this after making sure she understood that I could never guarantee that I had removed everything that could be a danger. She was impressed enough to tell me I should go to all the school grounds and she would vouch for me if needed. This was always done when school was not in session, never during any classes (during or after regular school hours). I don't agree with trying to blend in as I have detected schools and parks in some very impoverished areas that were not always deemed safe. I wear a official looking bright safety vest and a bb cap and do not get bothered unless it is some kid. I wear headphones so I just point at them and shake my head when one tries to talk to me; they usually walk away at that point.... . Our schools are City or County, public property, neither government has a problem with detecting them. If you are in a small town go to the PD and offer your services with the detector if they have a need, leave your name/number. It will establish you with them as a resource and you can point that out if any PO does ever approach you while detecting.