Metal detecting illegal on high school grounds.....???

[marcomo]

Marc, you seem like a nice guy. I hope you don't get offended, but this is a case of very bad judgment on your part.

It just seems so obvious that detecting at a school in session is just asking for trouble.

Twenty dead children is a terrible tragedy. Unlike most murders, we can't disassociate ourselves and alleviate our fears by blaming the victims. Depending on your age, it could have been you, your child, grandchild, or great-grandchild. Predictably, this has brought out widespread knee-jerk overreactions that our media over-saturated society has such a propensity for. So you being there raises even more security red flags than it would have a few months ago.

But even beyond security issues, you being there detecting while school is open is a distraction from the purpose of the school which is to educate children. If I was an administrator at that school, I would have run you off too.

The sad thing is if you would have used a little common sense this wouldn't have happened. If you would have gone detecting at that school when no one was there, it's very unlikely that anyone would have said a word to you. And you could still be detecting there to your heart's content.

Going back to detect at that school now is for all practical purposes a non-option. Even if you go at the least likely to get noticed time, you know you're not going to be able to enjoy it looking over your shoulder and worrying about being harassed. If you press the matter because there is no law banning detecting there, you can be sure you will lose that fight one way or another. And having your local cops think of you as a nuisance is definitely not what you want to happen.

At this point, I'd suggest you lick your wounds and learn from your "school lesson"

 

[Trackerman]

As tempting as it might be to hunt school grounds because of the possibilty of good finds. It aint worth the hassle. Find a safe place to hunt and move on. Metal detecting at times is a hobby that some people just dont apreciate or understand. Oh and theres defanatly a fair share of aholes out there to ruin our day when hunten trust tme weve all ran into one on ocasion. HH

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Marc, I see from reading the responses so far, that a few (like grumpyrsb & widebody) suggest asking permission from a higher authority (ie.: trying to get that over-turned, for example). But the REST of the respondants lean towards simply picking (or to HAVE picked) a better more off-time. Since the mere fact that the principal was there, it doesn't necessarily mean "school was in session", but .... reasonable to assume that ..... at least .... it was during regular business hours. I mean, I bet the principal goes home at 5pm (although perhaps janitors stay later). But even janitors I bet don't work at the school on Sunday, or early Sat. AM, etc...

Here's the deal:

Yes it's public. And yes you can be there (to a degree, I mean, like anyone else, assuming school is not in session, etc..). What I mean is, we've all probably seen OTHERS using the school after hours. You know, like people will jog the track, use the swing-sets, shoot hoops, etc.. And even though ... in this sad day and age, there is usually the obligatory sign at the turn-style, yet realistically, a lot of school yards are used after school hours, for things like in the example I gave, and no one cares.

So assuming we all agree on that point, and assuming school was not in session, then here's the legal deal: Public officials (cops, rangers, city employees, etc...) are tasked with interpretting the laws, as they see fit, to apply to a myriad of circumstances as may arise, in the field. One time, for example, I got booted by a city public works employee, from a city-green belt area in a town near me. I happened to know for a fact, that there was no rules forbidding detecting. I mean, sure, anyone can "morph" something to apply (the dreaded "alterations" clauses, etc..), but in this case, I had not been in the middle of any retrievals when he'd driven up on me.

I got sort of miffed at my booting, so I took my question to a lawyer friend of mine, and asked him if there had to be a "specific" law or rule, in order to be enforced. Because, otherwise, in my mind, it becomes "arbitrary and capricious" whimsical, etc... I mean, what's to stop a cop or official from rousing you in a park, and telling you:

"You can't wear a blue shirt, simply because I said so" ??

So in my mind, the person trying to boot me, would have to have something specific, otherwise he's out of line. But my lawyer friend appraised me of the law, and it's like this: The duly appointed officials/public servants are tasked with interpretting the rules, all the time, to fit various situations that arise. And this power HAS to be in their hands, otherwise they'd face endless "battles of semantics" from obstinate people challending their interpretations. For example: Let's say you went to the park wearing a single sock. A cop or park ranger might try to boot you for violating the nudity ordinance, RIGHT? But let's say you challenge him and say "But officer, I was wearing a single sock, so technically I'm not 'nude' " Or if a person has a dog with 3 legs, and a cop tries to boot him for violating the sign that says "no dog walking". The dog-owner gleefully replies "But officer, since he only has 3 legs, he technically 'hops', not walks, therefore my dog is allowed to be here" And so on, and so forth. Therefore, the law liberally gives powers-of-interpretation, to public servants, and their superiors will usually side with them, lest everything boil down to chaos. Is it sometimes whimsical, unfair, and arbitrary? SURE. But you can imagine society without such powers vested in those tasked with keeping order. And sure, I suppose if you got a REALLY rogue cop, then sure, you could complain, get things (tickets for wearing a blue shirt, etc...) over-turned.

But let's face it fellows: we're in a hobby with odd connotations, that you simply can not escape. It draws the stares of lookie-lous, and has connotations (that you might leave holes, etc...). To try to "get permission" (or have that principles booting over-turned) will often meet with simply MORE rules, that you don't want. In other words, I too could get myself booted from schools around me, if I wanted, by simply waltzing around in-view of the principles window, if the last of the staff has not gone for the day. YET I CAN TELL YOU FOR A FACT that I can go to any school in town when school is NOT in session (and the last of staff is gone as well), and ....... 99.99% of the time be ignored. Does it mean that I can go find a "yes" at city hall? Probably not.

I wish it wasn't this way (and I wish everyone loved us and welcomed us with open arms), but it's simply not this way. We're in an odd-ball hobby, and sometimes, the less visibility, the better. If you go seeking sanctions, it often back-fires, and you get the "no one cared till you asked" routine. Thus it's gotten to where I just do most of my hunting at odd-ball off times, and simply stay clear of lookie-lous who might gripe.

The big bugaboo that's immistakable, is obviously the evil process of retrieval. Even though YOU know you'll leave no trace, you and I can not escape the the knee-jerk reaction of busy-bodies, that you are going to leave a mess. To think you can "pre-empt" that, and go "get permission", often has the effect of "no's" passed out, and then guess what happens? It becomes a defacto rule or policy, handed down to the rank and file (a "BOL" so-to-speak), and all of the sudden, places that never had a problem before, all of the sudden are now "off-limits". Thus sometimes, I hate to say it, you just have to avoid "just that one spot" or "just that one person".

I bet if you just went back there early Sat. or Sun. AM, before any school staff was there, no one would pay you any mind. However, you are now in a pickle. Because since you have been specifically warned, now you face the dilema that....... they could see that as ignoring their warning. So I'd lay low, wait 6 months, before going back to that spot. And when you do, pick more opportune off-times.

 

[fongu]

There is a nice lady in my area who walks her 3-legged dog to the post office everyday. She got a little peeved at me because I called her dog: Arithmetic.
Why did you call him that she asked? Because he's putting down two and carrying one.

Marc, I see from reading the responses so far, that a few (like grumpyrsb & widebody) suggest asking permission from a higher authority (ie.: trying to get that over-turned, for example). But the REST of the respondants lean towards simply picking (or to HAVE picked) a better more off-time. Since the mere fact that the principal was there, it doesn't necessarily mean "school was in session", but .... reasonable to assume that ..... at least .... it was during regular business hours. I mean, I bet the principal goes home at 5pm (although perhaps janitors stay later). But even janitors I bet don't work at the school on Sunday, or early Sat. AM, etc...

Here's the deal:

Yes it's public. And yes you can be there (to a degree, I mean, like anyone else, assuming school is not in session, etc..). What I mean is, we've all probably seen OTHERS using the school after hours. You know, like people will jog the track, use the swing-sets, shoot hoops, etc.. And even though ... in this sad day and age, there is usually the obligatory sign at the turn-style, yet realistically, a lot of school yards are used after school hours, for things like in the example I gave, and no one cares.

So assuming we all agree on that point, and assuming school was not in session, then here's the legal deal: Public officials (cops, rangers, city employees, etc...) are tasked with interpretting the laws, as they see fit, to apply to a myriad of circumstances as may arise, in the field. One time, for example, I got booted by a city public works employee, from a city-green belt area in a town near me. I happened to know for a fact, that there was no rules forbidding detecting. I mean, sure, anyone can "morph" something to apply (the dreaded "alterations" clauses, etc..), but in this case, I had not been in the middle of any retrievals when he'd driven up on me.

I got sort of miffed at my booting, so I took my question to a lawyer friend of mine, and asked him if there had to be a "specific" law or rule, in order to be enforced. Because, otherwise, in my mind, it becomes "arbitrary and capricious" whimsical, etc... I mean, what's to stop a cop or official from rousing you in a park, and telling you:

"You can't wear a blue shirt, simply because I said so" ??

So in my mind, the person trying to boot me, would have to have something specific, otherwise he's out of line. But my lawyer friend appraised me of the law, and it's like this: The duly appointed officials/public servants are tasked with interpretting the rules, all the time, to fit various situations that arise. And this power HAS to be in their hands, otherwise they'd face endless "battles of semantics" from obstinate people challending their interpretations. For example: Let's say you went to the park wearing a single sock. A cop or park ranger might try to boot you for violating the nudity ordinance, RIGHT? But let's say you challenge him and say "But officer, I was wearing a single sock, so technically I'm not 'nude' " Or if a person has a dog with 3 legs, and a cop tries to boot him for violating the sign that says "no dog walking". The dog-owner gleefully replies "But officer, since he only has 3 legs, he technically 'hops', not walks, therefore my dog is allowed to be here" And so on, and so forth. Therefore, the law liberally gives powers-of-interpretation, to public servants, and their superiors will usually side with them, lest everything boil down to chaos. Is it sometimes whimsical, unfair, and arbitrary? SURE. But you can imagine society without such powers vested in those tasked with keeping order. And sure, I suppose if you got a REALLY rogue cop, then sure, you could complain, get things (tickets for wearing a blue shirt, etc...) over-turned.

But let's face it fellows: we're in a hobby with odd connotations, that you simply can not escape. It draws the stares of lookie-lous, and has connotations (that you might leave holes, etc...). To try to "get permission" (or have that principles booting over-turned) will often meet with simply MORE rules, that you don't want. In other words, I too could get myself booted from schools around me, if I wanted, by simply waltzing around in-view of the principles window, if the last of the staff has not gone for the day. YET I CAN TELL YOU FOR A FACT that I can go to any school in town when school is NOT in session (and the last of staff is gone as well), and ....... 99.99% of the time be ignored. Does it mean that I can go find a "yes" at city hall? Probably not.

I wish it wasn't this way (and I wish everyone loved us and welcomed us with open arms), but it's simply not this way. We're in an odd-ball hobby, and sometimes, the less visibility, the better. If you go seeking sanctions, it often back-fires, and you get the "no one cared till you asked" routine. Thus it's gotten to where I just do most of my hunting at odd-ball off times, and simply stay clear of lookie-lous who might gripe.

The big bugaboo that's immistakable, is obviously the evil process of retrieval. Even though YOU know you'll leave no trace, you and I can not escape the the knee-jerk reaction of busy-bodies, that you are going to leave a mess. To think you can "pre-empt" that, and go "get permission", often has the effect of "no's" passed out, and then guess what happens? It becomes a defacto rule or policy, handed down to the rank and file (a "BOL" so-to-speak), and all of the sudden, places that never had a problem before, all of the sudden are now "off-limits". Thus sometimes, I hate to say it, you just have to avoid "just that one spot" or "just that one person".

I bet if you just went back there early Sat. or Sun. AM, before any school staff was there, no one would pay you any mind. However, you are now in a pickle. Because since you have been specifically warned, now you face the dilema that....... they could see that as ignoring their warning. So I'd lay low, wait 6 months, before going back to that spot. And when you do, pick more opportune off-times.

 

[gunsil]

Yeah, it just isn't smart to detect at schools while class is in session. Has nothing to do with Sandy Hook, but I'm sure that tragedy makes it worse. I believe the principle was correct in that you were disturbing the learning of the students. I know if I was in high school and saw someone detecting out in the field I probably would pay more attention to that than the lesson at hand.

 

[idaho dan]

I used to be a cop. If one of the school officials calls in generally law enforcement will almost always take the side of the school official. Totally best in this day and age to stay away during school hours. In our town we get annual permits to hunt in parks and schools, but I never hunt a school while it is in session. You handled it well, though, by just leaving. Good Luck.

 

[digngrin]

Sounds like her skivies are too tight or maybe she has a crummy marriage.

 

[firstring]

All California schools have a sign posted with the school hours and with a notice that ALL visitors are to the school check in at the office. Following instructions that seem pretty understandable is the only safe way to go. It's posted for a reason and has been posted for years. I've talked to school security and school administration at more than one school here in Northern California. Some are agreeable to metal detecting after school has been dismissed and the kids have left. Some want me to wait until after 4:00 PM when the school office closes. All are ok with hunting the weekends. I appreciate their allowing me to detect. I've found plenty of gold jewelry at those schools and I don't want to mess up a good thing.

 

[Chris(SoCenWI)]

n/t

 

[Marc-Montana]

Just a little update here. Thanks again for all the replies. I introduced myself to this vice principal and gave my phone number to her the other day when this happened.

She called me back last night (and kept her word in doing so, which was much appreciated).

She informed me that I would have to talk to the officer who works onsite at the school grounds about detecting the property. She said the rules are "No digging whatsoever." I guess that leaves the screwdriver to pull the shallow targets. She said not to ever show up while school is in session(DOH!, obvious). She said that I could go in the sports fields there on the weekends, but still the rule of no digging whatsoever still stands. She gave me the phone number of the officer who works on the schoolgrounds. She said that the officer and staff are concerned about the "possibility" of me damaging a sprinker head on their underground sprinklers.

I am going to try set up an appointment with the officer to show him how the detector works, and point out that I can properly ID the sprinklers as such (TID 45-47 OR TID 93-94, Strong on the Pro's speaker-because of the pipe attached). I am also going to try to obtain permission in writing from the officer, and agree to all rules that the school/city sets forth. Any suggestions would be MUCH appreciated!

I agree with everyone who posted that it was a bad idea to hunt while school was in session. I guess you could say that me being from Montana here, I have always considered this a laid-back state. Most people don't care too much about metal detecting or any other types of hobbies, but I've had 2 encounters people who don't like it so far.

Another school that I've never had a problem at-I just found out today that one of the teachers there actually takes a metal detector there every so often!

I think this is going to work out for the best. At least she understands that this was a complete misunderstanding. I told her that I will not be back again, unless I can get permission from the School Officer.

 

[BH_Landstar_]

All the schools will be on 'high level watch' and 'locked down' due to the spat of killings, so watch what you do and where you are doing it. The schools round here have more police and private security on them of late (armed too the teeth).

 

[Marc-Montana]

I'm not offended by any of the replies. Actually, this thread could be a lifesaver for many people. Thank you John for posting the pic of the potentially suspicious looking pointer. They could shoot first and ask questions later, and ultimately I would be liable, because as far as it could be looked at-I would have been trespassing.

There's a center here in town that regulates all of the K-12 schools, and I just might contact them and get written permission to metal detect, if they would be willing to offer that to me. The only risk is what if they say no?

I think I will be mainly sticking to the parks, as there's plenty of those in nearby. It's kind of upsetting though, because almost all my best jewelry finds were from the schools.

It really saddens me that all these school tragedies are happening. Sometimes I wish I would have been born around the end of WWII, and I really wish there was less unnecessary violence in our world

 

[mudpuppy]

Hey Marc, you hit the public parks early morning during the week, and hit the schoolyards early in the morning on the weekends...thats what I do, no trouble at all.. . It just seems to be better for everyone if you go really early and dont stay too long in one spot. And If theres any sort of weekend function at the school..just dont go...
Mud

 

[marcomo]

There's a center here in town that regulates all of the K-12 schools, and I just might contact them and get written permission to metal detect, if they would be willing to offer that to me. The only risk is what if they say no?

Marc - If there are other K-12 schools you want to detect, that is more than a risk. It's almost a certainty .

For Pete's sake, take Tom's advice! Use common sense as to when you detect and quit worrying about fighting for permission - that's a fight you are probably going to lose.

The problem isn't that you didn't ask permission, the problem is when you detected.

If there are other schools in town that you want to metal detect, go do them when no one is there. Like early weekend mornings, in the summer, etc.

For all the reasons Tom has explained to you, if you try to get written permission from the school bureaucracy you are probably going to get shot down. It's much easier for them to just say no.

Public schools are public property paid for with tax dollars, including yours. As Tom says, you are doing no more damage than someone walking their dog, throwing a frisbee, etc. So you have no reason to feel like you are doing anything wrong by being there. At the same time, the less people who see you there, the less likely you are to get a troublemaking busybody who is going to make things diifficult for you. When you detect there (at off times) leave the property as you found it and if anyone in authority gives you any trouble (and they probably won't) the worst that will happen is you will get asked to leave.

 

[Marc-Montana]

Marcomo-Thanks for that bit of info, and you too Tom. My goal this year is to clean out the parks. I've never run in to any problems there at all.

As far as going in the early morning I will try that, but I don't plan on going to that school again for a LOOOOONG time!

I've noticed if anyone asks me what I'm doing in the parks, I just show them all the trash I pick up and some of the coins or whatever I found that day, and they usually just wish me good luck. I like those kind of people the best!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Thanx for being a good sport on all the pros-&-con's discussion here Marc.

Ok, as for the original one school, (the start of this thread, that single lady), you say that she now says: "No digging whatsoever." and that you deduce: "I guess that leaves the screwdriver to pull the shallow targets." Well for starters, of COURSE any public park or school will have to say this (and no, I doubt highly, you'll hurt any sprinklers. That's just their image of the hobby). I mean, the same can be said of a myriad of parks and schools everywhere, where even though this might be something someone in city hall might say (if asked to think about the subject of md'ing), yet the reality is, people are retrieving targets at schools and parks all the time. You're just in a pickle now, because you've got someone hovering over you. Bummer. And as for the possibility of whether or not a screwdriver "poking and prying from only a few inches with no damage), this provides an excellent example to you of the psychology, so let's use that:

You're probably right! You and I BOTH know that your scredriver to gently probe, and wriggle an item out of a slit, should NOT be construed as "digging', right? But think of it: if you went and ask that lady, or any number of city-people, you may INDEED find someone who says "no, you can't even poke, as that too is considered 'digging' ". So again, here you would be faced with a situation of "do I ask for clarification?". And as you can see, you're much better off to NOT ask, and just go, when no one's around to object or care anyhow. Ie.: after school when staff's all gone.

As for the other schools in town, you say: " I just might contact them and get written permission to metal detect...." No, don't do that. If there's not a rule that says "no metal detectors", then just do as the others here are saying, and go. Yet go at a time at more opportune discreet times, like on weekends, when no staff is there.

 

[firstring]

That's the way to do it. Show and tell time. See if yo can the grounds keeper there also. The security guy might know about security, but the groundskeeper is the "expert" of the grass. Get him on your side. Good luck.

 

[Robert2300]

Most high schools have their sports fields fenced in and pad locked.
I've been asked to leave as well. Just the way it is.
Robert2300

 

[jimmy clark]

never hunt a school when school is going on.thats asking for trouble.

 

[skateteacher]

I'm a teacher and if you were to set foot on school property during the school day you will be surrounded by law enforcement in about 5-10 minutes. The level of paranoia at schools right now is about an 11 on a 10 scale. We just had our monthly lockdown drill last week where a pretend stranger is on campus and we have 2-3 minutes to scramble the kids into the classrooms and close the blinds and lock the doors. If you want to hunt any school the best time is Sunday mornings from 6-10am. It will be just you and the gophers during this time.

Best,

Skate