The kind of publicity this hobby can do without . . . . a MUST READ!

[nge]

Hey I've got an idea....How about visible handicap signs to wear on the back of your shirt or jacket, visible at 100 yards.......NGE

 

[E-TREC-Virginia]

Let me explain a little more on where I am coming from. I happen to be a conservative and so feel that government doesn't have the right to tell me how to do most things in life. I don't want people telling me what to eat, what to feel guilty about, where I can smoke, where I'm allowed to pray, how I should spend my money, and so on. I get rather upset about government sticking it's nose in my business when it has no right to.

On the other hand, we have to deal with reality. And that reality is that there are plenty of busy body liberals out there who want nothing more than to tell you how to live your life. These people gravitate towards positions in government, where they then have the power to micro manage every little portion of your life that they have no business to.

That is the plain honest truth when it comes to our perceived "rights" in this country. Public perception is what dictates what we can and can't do. Dealing with that reality is then what we are left with. Do you really think that you can argue your "rights" to metal detect on public property with the current established government in this country? No, being realistic you are never going to win that war. Instead, we are left with trying to avoid conflict (which you WILL lose) that involves input from local authorities.

Just look at gun laws these days. It says we have the right to bear arms, yet many places have put severe restrictions on gun ownership. For instance, in many places you must have a trigger lock on your gun in your house. What good does that do when you've got five seconds to unlock it and shoot an intruder in your home? Yet the very reason why laws like this were passed is because some idiot left a loaded gun in a place that was easily accessed by his children and then ended up killing somebody with it. Do I think a law such as this should be passed to prevent isolated situations like this? Of course not, as I'm sure MANY deaths were prevented by not having a gun lock on the gun where the person was able to defend their home.

My whole point is that with freedom comes responsibility. You can argue to you are blue in the face that you should be able to use a shovel on public land. In principal I agree with that view, but in reality I believe it is a non-winner in the public's eye. The people, uniformed as they might be, don't care how well you repair a hole or anything about your "ethics" in metal detecting. They see that nasty looking shovel or long handled digger you are using in "their" public park and feel offended.

In short, if we don't police ourselves there are PLENTY of people out there who would just LOVE to do it for else. To argue otherwise is keeping your head in the sand. If we don't take some simple steps to avoid conflict then we are only speeding out the eventual outcome. Sooner or later detecting WILL be banned in your area, like it or not. By taking a few simple steps we can at least slow down this process.

As a side note example, you do not have a right to drive a car. Once your physical condition becomes too degraded to drive a car the government will take away your "right" (actually it's a privilege and not a right) to. This is in the name of public safety. I would argue that the same thing applies to metal detecting. If you are no longer able to metal detect properly (in most people's view) then you should accept that fact and move on to something else. You do not have a right to metal detect public property (in the government's eye....I would disagree with that statement but we are dealing in reality here), and so if you can no longer do that in a capable fashion then do the hobby a favor and move on. You are not more important than the greater good of the hobby, just like a driver who no longer has the ability to drive in a safe fashion. There are bigger things than yourself. You have to consider your impact on the hobby because of your actions.

I would also argue that those who break the law have the same mindset. They believe nobody has the right to tell them where and when they can metal detect. As you can see, there is a line that is crossed at some point. Where do you draw that line? Do you believe you have the right to use a shovel on public land? What about somebody who can't walk and feels they deserve the right to drive a backhoe into an area to dig? You may feel this is a ridiculous example of extremes, but keep in mind there are those who feel using a shovel is also an extreme.

As I've said more than a few times, public perception is everything. Look at how hunting has been demonized by the media. If we don't take some simple steps to avoid negative public impressions then all we are doing is speeding up the process of being outlawed. It's going to happen, but we can take some common sense steps to slow the process down. I might not agree with the public's view, and I may very well feel that being American gives me the "right" to do what I want, but there is a reality in between that needs to be dealt with. And that reality is that using a shovel or long handled digger on public land WILL lead to a very negative public perception. To argue otherwise is to keep your head in the sand.

You may very well believe that this is American and so you have every right to use whatever kind of digging tool you want on public land that your tax dollars have paid for. In principal, being a conservative, I very much agree with that thought process. But being that we don't live in a perfect world, there are some very important things to consider before arriving at that conclusion. In short, we are faced with dealing with the "uniformed" public, and have to conform to behaviours that will be more acceptable to the public eye. Reason being that we have to think ahead, and what negative outcomes will happen if we don't do things to keep ourselves "out of the face" of the general public. If you deny that this is a problem to contend with then you are plain and simple fooling yourself. Go ahead, do what you want, and see how fast that gets you to the very thing you feared in the first place. You may be offended by me suggesting that you shouldn't use a shovel on public land, but think how much more you will be offended when you are banned all together from metal detecting there period.

I agree with most every point that you made and I am going to adjust my approach on one thing. I have been using my shovel as a prop to help me get up from knees when my legs get to swollen from multiple blood clots. I do not use the shovel on public land to dig, only as a prop. However, people would not know one way or the other what it was being used for. I had tried various cains, put I broke to many of them. I am going to see what else I can use instead of the shovel.

The argument that you made about quiting the hobby when you physically cannot do it anymore is what I'm struggling with. To me, tools are made to make things easier on us or to improve our quality of life. I look at the various tools for MDing and I see no difference between them and say a pair of classes to improve your vision, a cain to help someone walk, an artificial limp so you can lead a normal life, etc.. As long as I can use these tools to continue doing what I love to do, I will. Now, going toward using private land to MD is a good idea and as I get older and less nimble, I will try to do that. But do not get me wrong, if I cannot find private land to dig on, I will use a shovel on public land if that's what I need to do to MD. Maybe, when that happens, I'll hang my handicap place-card that I have for my vehicle around my neck with a sign that explains why I'm using a shovel on public land. I'm not trying to be a smart @ss with the last statement, I actually think it would be a good idea. I would not be embarrassed to do that and it may eliminate some of the anxiety that people have about shovels.

As a side note, it's good to see that the conversation on this topic has calmed down a little bit and we're sharing thoughts on the subject without attacking each other.

 

[nge]

How about duct taping the curved part of a cane to the uppermost part of the shovel handle.....NGE

 

[ronfin]

Let me explain a little more on where I am coming from. I happen to be a conservative and so feel that government doesn't have the right to tell me how to do most things in life. I don't want people telling me what to eat, what to feel guilty about, where I can smoke, where I'm allowed to pray, how I should spend my money, and so on. I get rather upset about government sticking it's nose in my business when it has no right to.

On the other hand, we have to deal with reality. And that reality is that there are plenty of busy body liberals out there who want nothing more than to tell you how to live your life. These people gravitate towards positions in government, where they then have the power to micro manage every little portion of your life that they have no business to.

That is the plain honest truth when it comes to our perceived "rights" in this country. Public perception is what dictates what we can and can't do. Dealing with that reality is then what we are left with. Do you really think that you can argue your "rights" to metal detect on public property with the current established government in this country? No, being realistic you are never going to win that war. Instead, we are left with trying to avoid conflict (which you WILL lose) that involves input from local authorities.

Just look at gun laws these days. It says we have the right to bear arms, yet many places have put severe restrictions on gun ownership. For instance, in many places you must have a trigger lock on your gun in your house. What good does that do when you've got five seconds to unlock it and shoot an intruder in your home? Yet the very reason why laws like this were passed is because some idiot left a loaded gun in a place that was easily accessed by his children and then ended up killing somebody with it. Do I think a law such as this should be passed to prevent isolated situations like this? Of course not, as I'm sure MANY deaths were prevented by not having a gun lock on the gun where the person was able to defend their home.

My whole point is that with freedom comes responsibility. You can argue to you are blue in the face that you should be able to use a shovel on public land. In principal I agree with that view, but in reality I believe it is a non-winner in the public's eye. The people, uniformed as they might be, don't care how well you repair a hole or anything about your "ethics" in metal detecting. They see that nasty looking shovel or long handled digger you are using in "their" public park and feel offended.

In short, if we don't police ourselves there are PLENTY of people out there who would just LOVE to do it for else. To argue otherwise is keeping your head in the sand. If we don't take some simple steps to avoid conflict then we are only speeding out the eventual outcome. Sooner or later detecting WILL be banned in your area, like it or not. By taking a few simple steps we can at least slow down this process.

As a side note example, you do not have a right to drive a car. Once your physical condition becomes too degraded to drive a car the government will take away your "right" (actually it's a privilege and not a right) to. This is in the name of public safety. I would argue that the same thing applies to metal detecting. If you are no longer able to metal detect properly (in most people's view) then you should accept that fact and move on to something else. You do not have a right to metal detect public property (in the government's eye....I would disagree with that statement but we are dealing in reality here), and so if you can no longer do that in a capable fashion then do the hobby a favor and move on. You are not more important than the greater good of the hobby, just like a driver who no longer has the ability to drive in a safe fashion. There are bigger things than yourself. You have to consider your impact on the hobby because of your actions.

I would also argue that those who break the law have the same mindset. They believe nobody has the right to tell them where and when they can metal detect. As you can see, there is a line that is crossed at some point. Where do you draw that line? [size=large]Do you believe you have the right to use a shovel on public land[/size]? What about somebody who can't walk and feels they deserve the right to drive a backhoe into an area to dig? You may feel this is a ridiculous example of extremes, but keep in mind there are those who feel using a shovel is also an extreme.

As I've said more than a few times, public perception is everything. Look at how hunting has been demonized by the media. If we don't take some simple steps to avoid negative public impressions then all we are doing is speeding up the process of being outlawed. It's going to happen, but we can take some common sense steps to slow the process down. I might not agree with the public's view, and I may very well feel that being American gives me the "right" to do what I want, but there is a reality in between that needs to be dealt with. And that reality is that using a shovel or long handled digger on public land WILL lead to a very negative public perception. To argue otherwise is to keep your head in the sand.

You may very well believe that this is American and so you have every right to use whatever kind of digging tool you want on public land that your tax dollars have paid for. In principal, being a conservative, I very much agree with that thought process. But being that we don't live in a perfect world, there are some very important things to consider before arriving at that conclusion. In short, we are faced with dealing with the "uniformed" public, and have to conform to behaviours that will be more acceptable to the public eye. Reason being that we have to think ahead, and what negative outcomes will happen if we don't do things to keep ourselves "out of the face" of the general public. If you deny that this is a problem to contend with then you are plain and simple fooling yourself. Go ahead, do what you want, and see how fast that gets you to the very thing you feared in the first place. You may be offended by me suggesting that you shouldn't use a shovel on public land, but think how much more you will be offended when you are banned all together from metal detecting there period.

Yes, I have the same imaginary right to use a shovel, just like you assume the right exists to use a hand-held digger. This imaginary "right" to use either doesn't exist, but what does exist is the fact that digging at this park as long as the holes are filled is allowed. Fact. Recs Dept guys don't care how they holes get dug, but that they're filled. The regulars in the park don't care either. That mythical person you're so sure will show up hasn't yet, and to assume it will happen is like assuming the Rapture is upon us. This know-it-all attitude about which digger is "OK" to use, and which isn't, is ridiculous. You assume the "best" digger to use is a little one because in your mind that's what Joe Average will care about, and I'm telling you as someone that was Joe Average, that no one gives a crap about what you use to dig the hole, as much as they do it being filled. The people most critical about the equipment we use, have been the people within the hobby itself. You people create these imaginary scenarios, or pick a YouTube video about a guy that used a shovel and was banned from the park. How about posting what really happened? The person wasn't filling the holes, but you clowns left that little fact out so the cherry picked facts would seem legit. Amazing.

I had a discussion with a gentleman the first month I was in the park. He approached me and said "Hey, not to intrude, but my wife saw you here the other day and was concerned about you leaving holes." I asserted that no holes were ever left unfilled, and let him watch me dig a few targets. This conversation took place BEFORE the Raven even arrived, and now this same guy that walks his dog there every day, stops by to chat with me and see how I'm doing while I'm using my giant shovel. Funny that Joe Average doesn't care about it as mush as a few individuals on here do. You're opinion that the public focuses on the shovel is pure conjecture. Nothing more, and a fact-less biased statement. You like to put me down with those backhanded remarks about how I'm "foolish" or my "head is in the sand". Ever hear of IRONY? You're spewing a lot of it in every post. Did we really need a long speech about the Conservative good guy verses the evil Liberal? Amazing. How about posting the entire Pledge of Allegiance and post a picture of the American flag. I'm sure that will get the Patriotic votes for your cause here. The only negativity I've ever faced about this hobby, or my equipment, has been on this forum. Not in public where you're so sure it's gonna happen. See I believe in things like evidence. I don'y use words like "faith", or other ignorant terms to make my opinion about something I believe sound factual. If I experience evidence that there are people in my area that don't like what I dig with (actually laughing at this) then I'll discuss it with whomever when the issue arises, but till that time I wont just believe that some "uniformed" person is gonna care whether the hole was dug with a short Lesche, or a long one. Your concept of this is ridiculous. Seriously. Enough of this BS already. Keep your person opinions to yourself and stop badmouthing people you know nothing about. It's ignorant. Running around sounding like an authority on our hobby makes you look extremely arrogant, and what you believe is "OK" to dig with varies across the board. You're not "right", and neither am I. We're only right as long as we both don't cross paths with a jerkoff set on ruining our hobby by finding any reason they can. Someone here could use my shovel as their vice, and someone where you're at could use the hand-held you use as their reason to complain. Should that happen should I tell you to stop digging with it? What I wont do is force my opinion on you and tell you that you're wrong.

 

[Critterhunter]

Ronfin, now I know why you have the position you do on this subject. Looks like the majority opinion in the following thread is NOT in your favor. Doing YouTube videos of using a shovel on public land...(shaking my head) Let's keep the discussion there in the Views forum so as not to muck up these forums with it.

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?20,1665641