The kind of publicity this hobby can do without . . . . a MUST READ!

[khouse]

NGE writes "Then what do people who have back injuries, bad knees do about NOT being able to bend or get down to dig their treasures up. I have seen people with gator diggers make a Hole mess out of a park, whilst others with their afflictions are neater and cleaner than the aforementioned with their shovels. It is more of an attitude if you ask me........NGE"
I would rather see the avid hunters that have a legitimate ailment use long handled shovels than not enjoy their hobby. I do however am opposed to the well bodied hunters using a long handled shovel in public areas especially the parks.

 

[kurtallen]

If the guy sold 10,000 bullets how come he didn't pay for the repairs to the park? Also was his detector/detectors confiscated? If he kept a diary about his finds, he probably has records to whom he sold the relics. They should be prosecuted also.

 

[ronfin]

When I suggested in a thread that a certain show where they were using shovels and pitch forks on public property was giving a black eye to our hobby, I was called a "Troll" and told that nobody likes being told what to do. By that same logic I might then say to those people that this guy has the same attitude, that he doesn't want to be told what to do either.

With freedom comes responsibility. If we don't police ourselves then there are plenty of people in the government that would just love to do it for us. That above article is just one example of bad behaviour in our hobby. More common than tresspassers like this is the bad reputation we are getting by guys who are too lazy to bend down and dig a hole. Keep taking those long handled diggers and miltary shovels onto public lands and see how fast those places are closed down.

These youtube videos and TV shows where they are (I hope) hunting on private land showing them using shovels and other long handled diggers doesn't help our public image either. They need to make it a point to say that they are only using those because they are on private property and have permission, and that they would never use such digging tools on public property.

The biggest problem in this hobby is a lack of common sense. People using offensive (in the public's eye) digging tools, guys who go to the beach or park when it is full of people and hunt right around others, people too lazy to do a good job filling a hole or picking up their trash, and so on. What about these guys who go around and hunt the tree lawns in front of houses without asking permission? The city may own that property but that isn't going to stop the home owner from calling the cops on you, and the next thing you know their city park is also now off limits.

I'm sure that guy in PA had the same attitude..."Nobody tells me what to do." Hey, I don't care for the government telling me what to do either, but that's why we have to police ourselves and use some common sense so that we don't attract unwanted attention to ourselves. You have no "right" to metal detect in the government's eyes.

Are you kidding me? Climb down off your high horse before you go running around announcing with stern statements that anyone using a long-handled digging tool brings negativity to this hobby. That statement is ridiculous, as is your entire OPINION. I use a Raven because it's easier on my hands since I have carpal tunnel, and it's not because I'm lazy you jackass. Accusing anyone of being lazy that you don't know based on opinion is an a-hole thing to state, and my plugs are neater than some of the ones I've seen dug with a hand-held Lesche. The publics opinion isn't based on what you use to dig your hole, but how you leave it when you're done. What's wrong with this hobby are enthusiasts like yourself that go running off at the mouth on your high horses about what you should and shouldn't use, rather than how you should conduct yourself. Before you go running around like an authority on this hobby you should think before you post. You sound like an arrogant individual making biased and un-true statements. ugh.

 

[nge]

Yeah, what Ron said!

 

[E-TREC-Virginia]

Let me add 1 more wrinkle to this conversation. I am one of the folks who have physical limitations and need all the help I can get when detecting. I do not dig my plugs with a shovel unless I am in a field or in the woods. However, when I go on long hunts, I will take my shovel with me as a prop to help me get up from my knees. I've had multiple blood clots in both legs and after a while, they get so swollen that without the aid of the shovel, I would not be able stand back up. I've tried using a cain, but I've broke to many of them. It has nothing to do with being lazy, it's all about doing what you need to do to continue doing what you love to do.

 

[ronfin]

Let me add 1 more wrinkle to this conversation. I am one of the folks who have physical limitations and need all the help I can get when detecting. I do not dig my plugs with a shovel unless I am in a field or in the woods. However, when I go on long hunts, I will take my shovel with me as a prop to help me get up from my knees. I've had multiple blood clots in both legs and after a while, they get so swollen that without the aid of the shovel, I would not be able stand back up. I've tried using a cain, but I've broke to many of them. It has nothing to do with being lazy, it's all about doing what you need to do to continue doing what you love to do.

Thank you for adding that. I can't believe at some of the ignorance on here with some of the statements that have been made. I have carpal tunnel in my hands, and it pains me to dig with a hand-held tool. To call me lazy after I've served 20 years in the Military and was wounded is a slap in the face. What an a-hole that guy is! He doesn't know my area, or the people I know there, but he sure can throw around his opinions like they're the word of God. The Recs Dept guys are fine with what I use, are more than thrilled at how much trash I've removed, and the public (those that aren't getting high or drunk) that are regulars all know me and talk to me daily. Will that stop someone from making an erroneous complaint one day? Of course not, but to even suggest it's the fault of a long handled digger is ridiculous. I would worry more about these type of clowns actually making the complaints themselves to prove a point, rather than ANYONE in my community.

Glad to see you're still able to enjoy this hobby like myself by using alternate ways.

 

[EOS]

Doesnt matter what you use digging with,really.
I use a big showel,and have no health problem.
As long as you leave

 

[Critterhunter]

What I have to ask is..... What type of permission needs to be asked to hunt between the sidewalk and the road in city limits? I have hunted in these areas with no trouble from police except for them checking me out and wishing me the best of luck. Are you supposed to ask permission to hunt on these areas?

Edit: I found the thread that answers this question..... http://www.findmall.com/read.php?55,1648477

You have to be kidding me if you don't know the answer to that question. This is the very kind of behaviour I was talking about that will get us banned in more and more areas.

 

[Critterhunter]

Then what do people who have back injuries, bad knees do about NOT being able to bend or get down to dig their treasures up. I have seen people with gator diggers make a Hole mess out of a park, whilst others with their afflictions are neater and cleaner than the aforementioned with their shovels. It is more of an attitude if you ask me........NGE

You do the right thing and find another hobby to pass your time, or get permission to hunt private property. Hunting public lands with shovels or long handled diggers is the very reason why some parks have been banned in the past. I remember watching one Youtube video of a guy with a shovel in a public area happily digging away. The poster said that park is no longer open to detecting due to this ONE guy.

Regardless of how well you repair a hole, it's public perception that prompts them to call the police. Can you really blame them? Really think about that. If you knew nothing of this hobby how would you feel if you saw somebody with a shovel digging up "your" local park?

 

[Critterhunter]

Are you kidding me? Climb down off your high horse before you go running around announcing with stern statements that anyone using a long-handled digging tool brings negativity to this hobby. That statement is ridiculous, as is your entire OPINION. I use a Raven because it's easier on my hands since I have carpal tunnel, and it's not because I'm lazy you jackass. Accusing anyone of being lazy that you don't know based on opinion is an a-hole thing to state, and my plugs are neater than some of the ones I've seen dug with a hand-held Lesche. The publics opinion isn't based on what you use to dig your hole, but how you leave it when you're done. What's wrong with this hobby are enthusiasts like yourself that go running off at the mouth on your high horses about what you should and shouldn't use, rather than how you should conduct yourself. Before you go running around like an authority on this hobby you should think before you post. You sound like an arrogant individual making biased and un-true statements. ugh.

Always nice to see a well reasoned argument that doesn't need to resort to name calling. If you honestly believe that how the hole is left is more important to the joe public, an that they don't care what kind of digger you are carrying, then you are fooling yourself. Perception is EVERYTHING in the public's eye.

People seem to be confusing "rights" with with privileges in the government's eyes. For instance, you do not have a "right" to drive a car. You have to meet certain physical requirements (being able to see, for instance) in order to drive a car. By the same token, you have no "right" to metal detect. If you can no longer do it properly then do us all a favor and find another hobby, or hunt on private land where you can dig with what you want. Like the one guy said, there is no way you can properly repair a hole without putting hands on the ground.

 

[Critterhunter]

I would also add that I wager 95% of the people using shovels or long handled diggers do NOT have any form of physical problem. And, if you would note my message, I stated "because they are too lazy to bend down". I'm talking about THOSE people. I didn't mention anybody with physical problems, but I would say that if you are forced to use a shovel then you need to consider hunting on private property for the good of the hobby.

And just so you know where I stand, I have back problems and there are days where I can not get up from the ground without the help of a fellow hunter because my back is locking up. What do I do when that happens? I stop hunting and follow and watch my friend as he hunts. I get almost as much enjoyment out of that as I do hunting myself. What I don't do is start using a shovel. I'm not going to ruin it for everybody else by taking a shovel into a public park. My perceived "rights" aren't as important as the hobby's survival. Anybody who is being HONEST with themselves knows how the public and the police are going to react to that. Anybody who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves.

 

[Blank Planet]

from my experience a proper long handled shovel as you call it does a much cleaner and better cut than hacking away with a hand trowel and the plug goes back in much better, so its OK to do a not so good of a job as long as we don't upset people?

i use both depending on where i am but the long handle does a better job all round so damned if i do and damned if i don't.

seems all this kerfuffle is about how people perceive us and yes ignorance of Joe public is our enemy so the only question is how do we as detectorists educate fellow detectorists and Joe public?

because it seems we are doomed to die a slow death and it all depends on what people think of us i totally agree.

had one woman come running down the hill to grab her kids screaming stranger danger stranger danger, all i could see was Sid the sloth and started wetting myself laughing, what do people think of us??? if i was going to abduct a child i wouldn't be carrying all this gear with me, i was just off the beach washing my gear, see what we are dealing with is unfounded and ungrounded fears that people have found somewhere that has no just cause and when we are dealing with this sort of fear we are going to fight a losing battle in the long run.

its sad but true and i believe there is nothing we can do so without sounding negative enjoy this hobby while you can because it will not be around for ever JMHO.

BP

 

[ronfin]

Your biased opinion is again noted, and you're the only one fooling yourself if you think Joe Average cares about the tools we use to dig with. Prior to getting into the hobby I had seen people metal detecting. You know what came to mind? "Oh look, he has a metal detector." Never did I care about how he dug the holes, but often wondered if they were being filled. It wasn't until entering the hobby that I started to critique how others left the park when they were done. You people love to assume things based soley on your own opinions, and nothing more. The arrogance is overwhelming. Now you're making the bold claim that 95% are able to bend down. Yet another fabricated number you made-up to support your opinion. You have some personal issues to deal with regarding "our" hobby, and how "we're" all perceived. The average person doesn't know, nor care, about how you're digging that plug. They see a metal detector and that's their main focus, and if they're really concerned they care if the holes are filled. Not how they were dug. It's amazing how easy this concept is to understand, yet so far from being grasped by individuals within the MD community. By the way, this is an opinion based on common sense. Try using it sometimes rather than creating bogus percentages.

 

[Blank Planet]

are you replying to my post if so i don't think you have read it?? i am not arguing with anyone about what the public think for the most part, lots of people don't give a shit but there are those who just cant help but stick their nose in to every ones business, i have learnt a lot from metal detecting and that is live and let live.

if its meant to die my friend it will that's how the world is 99% of detectorists have their head in a hole and don't want to see the writing on the wall so hand trowel or shovel makes no difference what we have here is just plan old denial of the facts because look at the posts 99% of people on here don't care about this thread because right at this point in time they have no problem but i can promise the powers that be are in their little offices with suits and clean finger nails making laws to stop us, and you know what they will not consult us for 1 second and one day it will be over!

i believe the reason why this will happen is their are so many people now looking to make a quick buck and care nothing about how they leave the park or beach or where ever it is they are looking for buried treasure.

so when it happens don't say you where not warned.

BP

 

[ronfin]

No, you must've posted as I was typing. It was the guy above you and his ridiculous post.

 

[Critterhunter]

If you really believe that perception of the uniformed public isn't EVERYTHING then you are the one who is fooling yourself. Plain and simple. I think deep down in your heart you know the truth about this. Look, I'm not saying the public is right in their views. I'm simply saying that this is what we have to deal with. I'm also not saying that I believe detecting isn't a right, or that government should be able to tell you where and how you can detect. But the plain truth is the government doesn't believe detecting is a right. I'm simply saying that if we don't police ourselves then others will do it for us. That's reality, friend. Like it or not. The lack of common sense in this hobby is what will kill it. I'm not even saying that we will be able to prevent joe public from closing the hobby down completely over time. I'm simply saying that we can at least slow that process down by using some common sense. The number one rule is don't draw attention to yourself. Hunting with a big ugly shovel DOES draw negative attention. Hunting around a bunch of people in a park or on the beach when you should come back on a less busy day also draws unwanted attention. Nobody sun tanning on a beach wants his peace and quiet disturbed by some "geek" weaving between the beach towels. These TV shows draw unwanted attention. And so on. If you don't want to take a few practical steps to avoiding that attention all you are doing is speeding up the banning process. Nobody with a logical thinking process can argue otherwise.

And I would WAGER (as said above) that the odds are good that most people using shovels don't have a physical problem. Look at these shows about legalized pot for "medical reasons". Most of the people on those shows with medical pot cards have outrageous reasons for needing them. It's human nature to be lazy, and so I bet most guys using shovels are just plain lazy. Nobody seeing you using a shovel in a park is going to walk up and ask to see your handicap card. They are going to assume that you are just some lazy guy using a nasty shovel to dig up "their" park. If you don't believe that then I fear we are in worse shape than I originally thought.

 

[E-TREC-Virginia]

It does not matter what you dig with. The people that are going to complain will complain. I was kicked off of a site, because someone called the police and complained that I was destroying public property. I was not using a shovel nor did I have my shovel with me. I was using my model 75 hand digger. I take great pride on how I repair my plugs. I put the dirt on a towel and completely back-fill the hole and replace the plug. Stand-up and push the plug securely back into the ground. Now, when the police officer showed up to tell me he had received a complaint, he asked me if the hole I just dug was the first one. I said no, I've dug several holes in this area. He looked around and said he could not see any. I said exactly, I am not destroying anything and if the person who complained would have come down and introduced themselves and explained that they were concerned, I would have showed them how I repair the ground and you cannot even tell that I've dug. I showed the police officer how I repair the plug while he stood there. The area that I was hunting was not off limits to metal detecting and the police officer confirmed that, however, he still asked me to leave because someone complained. He said that if it was up to him, he would let me stay. Now, I could go back and detect again, and I have the legal right to, but that same person will complain again and the same thing will happen. I've seen shovels that are no bigger then a hand digger. They are really hand diggers with a small handle. They are so small, you can hardly tell that someone is using them unless you look real close. This subject is not black and white. I agree that if I saw someone with a full size shovel, it may make me think twice about what they are doing, however, seeing someone with a shovel that is a little over 2 feet long and 4 1/2 wide blade is not going to make me think that they are digging holes to China.

 

[ronfin]

Critterhunter, you seem to have more of a dislike for the Raven then the actual public, and I find it amazing that in every post you throw around fabricated facts about what the public thinks, when in reality it's only what you think. Stop speaking for the entire public like you actually know what you're talking about. For every person that has an issue with a Raven, there's equally one that has an issue with a small hand-held digger. They see a hole, and that's the bottom line. Not what I'm carrying around with me as you so love to assume. Deep down I know it's wrong? Are you seriously this arrogant in every day life? Your opinion is that, and nothing more, and the overwhelming support I've received now due to you few know-it-alls suggests what I've said all along is dead on. This hobby will be fine if people respect the area they hunt in, and regardless of that there's always a few a-holes out there ready to ruin it regardless of equipment. smh

 

[Blank Planet]

It does not matter what you dig with. The people that are going to complain will complain. I was kicked off of a site, because someone called the police and complained that I was destroying public property. I was not using a shovel nor did I have my shovel with me. I was using my model 75 hand digger. I take great pride on how I repair my plugs. I put the dirt on a towel and completely back-fill the hole and replace the plug. Stand-up and push the plug securely back into the ground. Now, when the police officer showed up to tell me he had received a complaint, he asked me if the hole I just dug was the first one. I said no, I've dug several holes in this area. He looked around and said he could not see any. I said exactly, I am not destroying anything and if the person who complained would have come down and introduced themselves and explained that they were concerned, I would have showed them how I repair the ground and you cannot even tell that I've dug. I showed the police officer how I repair the plug while he stood there. The area that I was hunting was not off limits to metal detecting and the police officer confirmed that, however, he still asked me to leave because someone complained. He said that if it was up to him, he would let me stay. Now, I could go back and detect again, and I have the legal right to, but that same person will complain again and the same thing will happen. I've seen shovels that are no bigger then a hand digger. They are really hand diggers with a small handle. They are so small, you can hardly tell that someone is using them unless you look real close. This subject is not black and white. I agree that if I saw someone with a full size shovel, it may make me think twice about what they are doing, however, seeing someone with a shovel that is a little over 2 feet long and 4 1/2 wide blade is not going to make me think that they are digging holes to China.

totally agree but its those few people that complain that seem to get listened too, why is that so? if i complained they don't care, it seems that any form of earth disruption is very bad in some people eyes and for some reason they are listened too? same thing has probably happened to us all and for me it makes me a bit paranoid who's going to cal the cops today so then i am on guard and in the process am not enjoying myself as much and trust nobody so i treat everyone as an enemy until they show me otherwise and that's not a good way to be!!

i had the police pull in to the car park the other night shined their lights on me seen what i was doing and i gave a friendly wave and they drove off, so it seems these people who have a bug up there but and its probably because the wife just left or they lost there job see us as an easy target to take their frustrations out on to me this is not fair and is sad!! i have been to the point a few times to just sell my gear because i am not enjoying it like i should because of some isolated events like explained above, if i have to be looking over my shoulder all the time its not really fun is it?

the sad part is that these few people who complain are the ones who will have detecting banned.

BP

 

[Critterhunter]

Let me explain a little more on where I am coming from. I happen to be a conservative and so feel that government doesn't have the right to tell me how to do most things in life. I don't want people telling me what to eat, what to feel guilty about, where I can smoke, where I'm allowed to pray, how I should spend my money, and so on. I get rather upset about government sticking it's nose in my business when it has no right to.

On the other hand, we have to deal with reality. And that reality is that there are plenty of busy body liberals out there who want nothing more than to tell you how to live your life. These people gravitate towards positions in government, where they then have the power to micro manage every little portion of your life that they have no business to.

That is the plain honest truth when it comes to our perceived "rights" in this country. Public perception is what dictates what we can and can't do. Dealing with that reality is then what we are left with. Do you really think that you can argue your "rights" to metal detect on public property with the current established government in this country? No, being realistic you are never going to win that war. Instead, we are left with trying to avoid conflict (which you WILL lose) that involves input from local authorities.

Just look at gun laws these days. It says we have the right to bear arms, yet many places have put severe restrictions on gun ownership. For instance, in many places you must have a trigger lock on your gun in your house. What good does that do when you've got five seconds to unlock it and shoot an intruder in your home? Yet the very reason why laws like this were passed is because some idiot left a loaded gun in a place that was easily accessed by his children and then ended up killing somebody with it. Do I think a law such as this should be passed to prevent isolated situations like this? Of course not, as I'm sure MANY deaths were prevented by not having a gun lock on the gun where the person was able to defend their home.

My whole point is that with freedom comes responsibility. You can argue to you are blue in the face that you should be able to use a shovel on public land. In principal I agree with that view, but in reality I believe it is a non-winner in the public's eye. The people, uniformed as they might be, don't care how well you repair a hole or anything about your "ethics" in metal detecting. They see that nasty looking shovel or long handled digger you are using in "their" public park and feel offended.

In short, if we don't police ourselves there are PLENTY of people out there who would just LOVE to do it for else. To argue otherwise is keeping your head in the sand. If we don't take some simple steps to avoid conflict then we are only speeding out the eventual outcome. Sooner or later detecting WILL be banned in your area, like it or not. By taking a few simple steps we can at least slow down this process.

As a side note example, you do not have a right to drive a car. Once your physical condition becomes too degraded to drive a car the government will take away your "right" (actually it's a privilege and not a right) to. This is in the name of public safety. I would argue that the same thing applies to metal detecting. If you are no longer able to metal detect properly (in most people's view) then you should accept that fact and move on to something else. You do not have a right to metal detect public property (in the government's eye....I would disagree with that statement but we are dealing in reality here), and so if you can no longer do that in a capable fashion then do the hobby a favor and move on. You are not more important than the greater good of the hobby, just like a driver who no longer has the ability to drive in a safe fashion. There are bigger things than yourself. You have to consider your impact on the hobby because of your actions.

I would also argue that those who break the law have the same mindset. They believe nobody has the right to tell them where and when they can metal detect. As you can see, there is a line that is crossed at some point. Where do you draw that line? Do you believe you have the right to use a shovel on public land? What about somebody who can't walk and feels they deserve the right to drive a backhoe into an area to dig? You may feel this is a ridiculous example of extremes, but keep in mind there are those who feel using a shovel is also an extreme.

As I've said more than a few times, public perception is everything. Look at how hunting has been demonized by the media. If we don't take some simple steps to avoid negative public impressions then all we are doing is speeding up the process of being outlawed. It's going to happen, but we can take some common sense steps to slow the process down. I might not agree with the public's view, and I may very well feel that being American gives me the "right" to do what I want, but there is a reality in between that needs to be dealt with. And that reality is that using a shovel or long handled digger on public land WILL lead to a very negative public perception. To argue otherwise is to keep your head in the sand.

You may very well believe that this is American and so you have every right to use whatever kind of digging tool you want on public land that your tax dollars have paid for. In principal, being a conservative, I very much agree with that thought process. But being that we don't live in a perfect world, there are some very important things to consider before arriving at that conclusion. In short, we are faced with dealing with the "uniformed" public, and have to conform to behaviours that will be more acceptable to the public eye. Reason being that we have to think ahead, and what negative outcomes will happen if we don't do things to keep ourselves "out of the face" of the general public. If you deny that this is a problem to contend with then you are plain and simple fooling yourself. Go ahead, do what you want, and see how fast that gets you to the very thing you feared in the first place. You may be offended by me suggesting that you shouldn't use a shovel on public land, but think how much more you will be offended when you are banned all together from metal detecting there period.