Sovereign GT Is NOT Deeper In All Metal Or Pinpoint

[nick hunter]

Hi guys !

Just thought I would jump into this interesting conversation.

I learned the "reverse disc" technique on this very forum a few months ago. I have a solid 150 hours detecting using it, so I will share some thoughts.

First of all, I use it only when hunting wet sand beaches. Would be a waste of time inland.

Then, Minelab says that the GB is DISABLED in the P/P mode. If you GB by pumping in "track and get a good threshold, moving to P/P will retain the GB setting. On wet salt beaches, there are two types of soils : wet salt and gullies full of seawater. Switching from one type to another would be a problem if you don't re-ground balance. But both those areas are usually very large and it is easy to split the search according to the circumstances. And oh yes : volume at 3 o' clock is a maximum ta get a stable threshold.

Searching the wet in P/P has several advantages :

-It goes indeed deeper than the disc mode, One of the reasons is that you can hunt with the sens at max !!!. That would be difficult in disc mode.

-If you get a deep signal that won't affect the threshold in disc, by all means dig : 95% of the time, it will be a keeper !

-If you get a stronger/very strong signal making you think "undeep" which also does not affect the threshold in disc : DIG AGAIN : it might be a gold chain ! The GT does not respond to heavy gold bracelets/chains, both 14 and 18K, in the disc mode ! Test it ! They will of course respond in P/P mode.

-Using the technique coupled to a larger coil (SEF, WOT...) will permit you to reach depth one could only dream of ten years ago.

My only complain about the Sovereign is its unability to ID correctly some bottlecaps, a thing my humble Compadre does ten times better !

I will keep using the technique, as it permitted me some finds I would never haved unearthed in disc on the wet sand.

HH

 

[Neil]

Hi guys !

Just thought I would jump into this interesting conversation.

I learned the "reverse disc" technique on this very forum a few months ago. I have a solid 150 hours detecting using it, so I will share some thoughts.

First of all, I use it only when hunting wet sand beaches. Would be a waste of time inland.

Then, Minelab says that the GB is DISABLED in the P/P mode. If you GB by pumping in "track and get a good threshold, moving to P/P will retain the GB setting. On wet salt beaches, there are two types of soils : wet salt and gullies full of seawater. Switching from one type to another would be a problem if you don't re-ground balance. But both those areas are usually very large and it is easy to split the search according to the circumstances. And oh yes : volume at 3 o' clock is a maximum ta get a stable threshold.

Searching the wet in P/P has several advantages :

-It goes indeed deeper than the disc mode, One of the reasons is that you can hunt with the sens at max !!!. That would be difficult in disc mode.

-If you get a deep signal that won't affect the threshold in disc, by all means dig : 95% of the time, it will be a keeper !

-If you get a stronger/very strong signal making you think "undeep" which also does not affect the threshold in disc : DIG AGAIN : it might be a gold chain ! The GT does not respond to heavy gold bracelets/chains, both 14 and 18K, in the disc mode ! Test it ! They will of course respond in P/P mode.

-Using the technique coupled to a larger coil (SEF, WOT...) will permit you to reach depth one could only dream of ten years ago.

My only complain about the Sovereign is its unability to ID correctly some bottlecaps, a thing my humble Compadre does ten times better !

I will keep using the technique, as it permitted me some finds I would never haved unearthed in disc on the wet sand.

HH

Some very good points Nick. It seems some have missed readjusting their sovs when switching from disc to all metal to check targets but your right, most times, at least here, I can run at max sens in all metal.
Also to remention this thread is stuck on one thing and that is the GT has two all metal modes and the ground balancing feature is for one of the modes only. the pinpoint mode as you have found out adjusts as the soil goes just like the disc. who knows why minelab doesnt go into greater depth about this mode (all metal pinpoint). two all metal modes, lets not confuse these as the same.
One point I disagree with you on is the GTs disc response to heavy gold chains/bracelets. Ive found a number of them in disc mode, it responds well to them, you might be referring to the thin chains/bracelets?
heres a bracelet I found in the wet sand, almost 2ozs of 14k, a nice response just above nickel, pulltab range. this was found with an XS model sov.

 

[jbow]

It wasn't a problem for me either because the GT was my first detector. I find it's pinpoint ability to be really accurate. It really is one very good machine. I would like to see Minelab or some other TOPLINE manufacturer to produce an "all the beels and whistles" audio only detector... with every possible audio option and some we haven't even thought of... no screen, easy to access all the options with ONE HAND. I think that this might be the best possible direction for the serious detectorist today, using all the new technology and microchip power for a truly awesome audio only detector. I think we probably miss many targets from relying too much on the screen info and TID numbers... it is just so easy to forget that so many different variables can and do go into that number and depth reading.

Oh, lightweight and balanced too....

anyway....

Julien

 

[jbow]

"And oh yes : volume at 3 o' clock is a maximum ta get a stable threshold."

So... volume affects the ability to keep a stable threshold? I did not know that. Does it have any effect in disc mode?

You can run the sens at max in AM and keep a stable threshold with the volume at 3:00... ? What if you max the volume or set it at 12:00 does that adversely affect keeping a stable threshold?

V e r y Interrrrr-esting (per R&M's laugh-in)

Julien

 

[nick hunter]

Hi

Julien : This is experience. The threshold in P/P seems to be much more stable when the volume is set at 3 o'clock or below. Can't explain, but seems to be a fact.

Neil : I'm indeed referring to lighter pieces of chain-shaped jewelry.

We have a book here in Europe, (Handbook for detetorists) where the author states that your detector will find thin chains made of gold the same way it finds a 1 square cm piece of foil.

A very instructive test !

HH

 

[kered]

I'm finding the Excalibur is the same, volume at about 75-80% will allow more sens without it starting to pulsate in all metal

 

[Critterhunter]

One thing that worries me about the GT ISTHIS no manual ground balance , i found that on my musketeer i get way better depth in all metal because i can set the ground balance just a bit positive on a GT you can not do this

But you do have a "manual" ground balance on the GT. It only needs a ground balance in All Metal so just pump the coil up and down until the threshold slightly raises when the coil is nearing the soil and then switch it over to Fixed. Now it's balanced slightly hot giving a little more depth and will not changed from that setting. Also, Minelab even states in the manual that even if you just throw it into Track and hunt for a little while the GT will tend to tune the balance a little hot for best depth, or at least they state that for doing the "pump" method. There is no difference in a manual ground balance that has a knob or the way to adjust it on the GT other than the fact that the machine automaticly adjusts the balance for you until you decide (by sound) that it's where you want it and then throw it into fixed if you want to keep it there. Any balance setting is possible by simply waiting until the threshold tells you that the balance is where you want it (hot or not) and then throwing it into fixed. How you move the coil up and down (and how close or far away you get to the soil with the coil) can change the way it's adjusting in certain ways, allowing full control over it just like you had a knob to adjust before locking it in.

 

[Critterhunter]

I have to wonder if some of the reported "better depth" people say they get in PP is more due to the conductivity of the target than it's depth. Just like some machines will cost you some depth if you crank up the discrimination I wonder if one possible variable in the PP/Disc/All Metal debate might be due to small gold targets that are low in conductivity and thus at the extreme edges of depth might blend with the iron in the soil enough to be drawn down into the high iron area of conductivity, causing the machine in discriminate to null it out like it would any other "iron" target.

I'm going to play with Disc, PP, and AM some more in the field before digging deep targets and compare some more. So far PP is not ever deeper than discriminate and often I can't even pinpoint with PP and have to use discriminate to do that because PP can't even see the target. A recent wheat and buffalo I dug would not give any signal in PP and they were only about 8" deep or so. They were loud and clear in Disc, though. I'll have to be sure to balance the All Metal mode on the machine near the spot and do that a bit "hot" so that there is no doubt All Metal has been maxed and so has PP if for some reason it draws it's balance window from AM. I still don't believe either is going to go as deep as discriminate operating with it's legendary BBS technology. So far that's been true in the field for me....in my area...on my GT.

 

[Neil]

dont forget the "legendary" bbs technology applies to the all metal modes also

 

[Critterhunter]

Still waiting for somebody to prove that to me, Neil. I'd love to hear about some of the technical specs on this machine in those modes. Perhaps somebody could ask Shaun from Shaun's amp what he may have found out in building that thing because I know he would have been investigating both TX and RX signals with an oscilloscope. I'd also like to know if anybody has investigated how the machine is processing it's AM or PP signals internally, because my money is on that it is not looking at the signal in the same way discriminate does, thus needing a ground balance. Otherwise, if AM or PP was just still a full function BBS mode with no iron discrimination I would expect both the tones to still be present and there to be no need for a ground balance in AM.

In fact, now that I'm thinking of it I'll be heading back down to VA for another interview at a company that builds huge transformers power stations for emergencies that can power city blocks. My buddy who's an electrical engineer got my foot in the door because of my qualifications/schooling in a related field of electronics and the HVAC field.

Anyway, I'm taking my machine again and I'll have him do some poking around in the internals with his oscilloscope to see if he can figure out what's going on. My electrical background is extensive in troubleshooting/taking readings/schematics/sensors/and so on but I've got zero oscilloscope experience, so I'll let him do the investigating and in the process learn how one is used while I'm at it for future job skills. Always nice when something is both fun and interesting and useful to future job skills, so it's a win/win for me. My friend loves poking around and checking devices out anyway like I do so I'm sure he's going to be all into it. Another good excuse to drink some beers and tinker.

 

[Neil]

Still waiting for somebody to prove that to me, Neil. I'd love to hear about some of the technical specs on this machine in those modes. Perhaps somebody could ask Shaun from Shaun's amp what he may have found out in building that thing because I know he would have been investigating both TX and RX signals with an oscilloscope. I'd also like to know if anybody has investigated how the machine is processing it's AM or PP signals internally, because my money is on that it is not looking at the signal in the same way discriminate does, thus needing a ground balance. Otherwise, if AM or PP was just still a full function BBS mode with no iron discrimination I would expect both the tones to still be present and there to be no need for a ground balance in AM.

In fact, now that I'm thinking of it I'll be heading back down to VA for another interview at a company that builds huge transformers power stations for emergencies that can power city blocks. My buddy who's an electrical engineer got my foot in the door because of my qualifications/schooling in a related field of electronics and the HVAC field.

Anyway, I'm taking my machine again and I'll have him do some poking around in the internals with his oscilloscope to see if he can figure out what's going on. My electrical background is extensive in troubleshooting/taking readings/schematics/sensors/and so on but I've got zero oscilloscope experience, so I'll let him do the investigating and in the process learn how one is used while I'm at it for future job skills. Always nice when something is both fun and interesting and useful to future job skills, so it's a win/win for me. My friend loves poking around and checking devices out anyway like I do so I'm sure he's going to be all into it. Another good excuse to drink some beers and tinker.

Critter I already passed on to you to check Clive Cynicks books (he has several on the sov/excal) and also Andy Sabishes books as they tell you its BBS in both modes. Trying forgetting about the GTs ADDITIONAL all metal mode with tracking ground balance(which they use on their Eureka and earlier gold machines) and try and understand that for most of the sovs lifetime, right up to and including the Elite, their all metal mode works as the discrimate does as far as adjusting to the ground. Its amazing the lengths you go to refusing to see something clearly, simply because your stuck on your own opinion. These forums are great for learning but only if you approach them with an open mind.
and your comparison about all metal and tones doesnt hold water either, several other detectors do that, Tesoros, Fishers(F75s and CZs)........
and of course there is the simple way to know: call minelab and have an actual tech explain it to you, and hey, you can disagree with him then

 

[Neil]

forgot to mention you can also contact David at Dixie Detectors, he is the one who does the "dixie mods" on the sov, he also hunts his sov in all metal and has for many years. he claims as has Clive Clynick, to have aquired an ear for differentiating targets in the all metal mode, something Ive not been able to do reliably, mostly when I do it I go by sizing.

 

[Critterhunter]

Hey, I'm not "holding onto" anything here. I'm simply not going to assume whatever people says is in fact true without somebody SHOWING me the proof. I see clues that contradict BBS being used in all metal or PP, but no evidence at all supporting that is does in fact use BBS. So, with a very superficial view thus far I'd have to lean towards BBS not being used for the PP/AM modes. Where exactly do you have any evidence to suggest otherwise, other than just what people think? I'm more than willing to accept either conclusion but until I see some hard cold facts/specs/data then I'll lean towards what few clues say otherwise about BBS working in all three modes. It may in fact be putting out the same signal but I'll bet money it's not paying attention to most of that signal in the same way it is in discrimination.

Also, from what I've always heard (yes, doesn't mean it's true) the older Sovereigns used automatic ground tracking in AM mode, same as the GT but with the inability to throw it into fixed. That doesn't sound the same as BBS ground filtering to me, so I look forward to any technical data I can pour over and see exactly what the machine is doing, either in that indeed it is using BBS or isn't. I still say if it's a full function BBS in All Metal there would be no need for a ground balance like all other conventional machines out there, where as BBS and FBS machines do not need it. Seems like it would be a big waste of time and money to add a conventional ground balance to a machine that can already do without it in discrimination mode. Why the difference? THAT'S what I want to know and I see no need to bust my chops because I want to get to the bottom of this, whichever way it pans out.

 

[kered]

page 5 of the Sov GT manual

One of the major overall benefits of BBS technology is that although it automatically
operates at so many frequencies, all at the same time, it is actually easier to use than most
of its competitors. Because it is microprocessor controlled, all you need do is set the
threshold, discrimination and volume, and the rest is done for you automatically.
Most coin detectors do not work well on saltwater beaches, and Pulse Induction detectors
designed for beach use have very little or no Discrimination ability. The Sovereign GT not only
performs flawlessly on a saltwater beach, whilst discriminating targets with amazing
accuracy, it also has a true ground balancing all-metal mode that allows operators to find very
low conductive items such as gold nuggets, and ferrous based relics in mineralised soils.

I think it probably does have full BBS in all metal mode but you are given the choice to do it manually, a similar choice as the ironmask on/off, although still not documental proof

 

[Neil]

Critter: Im sorry, I dont mean to bust your chops, just trying to shed as much light as I can and my god man, isnt that enough info for you to follow up on to finally satisfy yourself? it doesnt seem like your following up on any of it, what can a call to minelab cost? partial signal analysis in all metal? you have to admit thats whats going on in your mind right? you didnt address the all metal and no tones thing I mentioned about other detectors being the same way. if we are going to have a spirited debate/discussion, than please do so, thats an issue you mentioned, I responded, and now you ignore, so what should I think of that? we are trying to learn here right?

kered: the only thing I can personally offer up regarding bbs in all metal pinpoint mode is that I can go from dry sand to wet sand and directly into salt water with the sov in that mode (or disc mode) and make no adjustments and the unit will run smooth. No other vlf unit will do that to my knowledge and Im pretty sure the bbs is responsible for that. I should mention the fbs units will do this also. Ive bought all the available books that I know of and spoke with Dick Shultz when he worked for minelab regarding this(asked him if the pinpoint mode was the same on the GT as all the other sovs, which gives the GT two seperate all metal modes) and he said yes.
if you take a look at the Gt and then all the other sovs you will see the GT is a culmination of all the other sovs features. over the years guys have been asking for this and minelab put them all together. the band switch is off the elite. the iron mask on/off feature is off the orignal sov. the silent search feature was available from the original sov on via a jumper inside the box. the tracking all metal mode is the one feature on the GT the others dont have. the original had an adjustment for setting the GB, but no tracking mode, if I remember correctly. and if you look in their brochures and perhaps the manual, Minelab actually brags about them "adding" their world renowned all metal tracking mode to the GT. I think this is what is confusing to some who have only used the GT model.
until someone comes up with something fresh on this subject I think its pretty well beat to death

 

[crazyman]

The new all metal mode on the GT is basically the same as they had on the original Sovereign. I had forgot about that. I had the original Sovereign years ago that I bought from Rick but never played with the all metal ground balance much. I don't hunt in all metal or use the PP mode to pinpoint so I don't have any opinion as far as what mode is better or deeper. I believe the motion based pinpoint mode is still using the same BBS technology as it's obviously still filtering the ground minerals from what I've seen testing it on the beach but I think the other all metal mode whether using track or fixed is something different and is more a true non motion based all metal mode found on most detectors.

 

[Critterhunter]

See the SEF thread for info on just how deep pinpoint is going for me after some intensive testing. Even at max sensitivity it's maxing out at about 8" max where as discrimination is still loud and clear on targets much deeper. Case closed for me on the GT, at least using the 15x12 coil. I've tested this in low mineralized sites, high iron sites, the beach, and everything in between. Makes no difference. Still want to run a few more tests on All Metal versus discrimination to confirm it also isn't as deep as discrimination. So far it's not nearly as deep but I haven't testing it as extensively as I have PP thus far.

 

[Critterhunter]

Slight update on the depth of PP can be found in the SEF thread.