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Sovereign GT Is NOT Deeper In All Metal Or Pinpoint

As a rule, if you see someone with a stock S-Rod shaft with the excals, they just got it or first year rookie's. Got both the 800 & 1000, & 1000 excal II and I have about 5 straight shafts for use between them. Each for different Beach's and different types of hunting. As far as my experiences go with all the excal's I've used and the New excal II also, PP/Am only works when in motion, and best when wiggled over the target to bring in a better signal. I will have to check the new excal II manual,........................ Ok, I check the manual and I'm Sorry, I don't seem to see what you are referring to, unless you are addressing Page 20 paragraph 7, were it refers to false signal caused by to much sensitivity while the detectors coil is motionless.................the last page/picture is from the old excal manual on PP
On the Excals I own, the little 800 seems to be Hotter then the Excal II, with the old 1000 coming in third and this would be in all modes {Could be just this detector}.....On the which is deeper thing, It depends on where you are I have found in my travels. .................HH........joe
Ch said:
The other interesting thing I found is that the 800's pinpoint does not seem to be an all metal non-motion mode as the Excalibur II's manual states. You have to keep the coil moving otherwise the sound in PP will go away. It seems much like PP on my GT. For that reason, I wonder if PP on the II is a different PP mode using non-motion like the manual for that unit states?
Click to expand...
 
In the manual for either the 800 or II (can't remember) on Minelab's own website it states that PP in a "non-motion all metal mode". I think that was the manual for the 800 because I refered to that when testing my friend's PP on his 800. It is NOT a non-motion pinpoint like they state, so perhaps it's different on the II or something? I'll dig up the quote if you want from the manual.
 
On reading the non-motion pinpoint mode i read the manual again

In the excalibur 2 manual on page 16 it states

When in Disc (Discriminate) mode, the Excalibur II is a
 
Mine's broken, have to keep it in motion to get a responce from a target, Guess it will stay that way, the time is near and hear there is a 2 month backlog on repairs............HH ..joe
 
Hi Critterhunter,i've checked signals in "all metal" that i have picked up in discrim mode and i am also finding i get better depth when in discrim.In fact,i am finding that discrim has significantly more depth than the all metal setting.This was quite surprising to me because i always thought that all metal mode would provide the best depth.I thought that maybe it may be down to the technology in the sovereign and that perhaps the use of multi frequency may be something to do with it.However,i have just purchased a used musketeer and was even more surprised to find on page 13 of the instruction manual the words"It is recommended to search in discriminate mode to achieve the best depth".I cannot back this up yet because i have'nt tested it yet only having bought it yesterday.Just something else to think about.
Regards,Neil.
 
Yes, I think much of the belief out there on many machines (not just Minelabs) being deeper in all metal than discriminate is due to the fact that a lot of machines in say the 80's or below that time were deeper in all metal due to the primative discrimination technology they used. I've never owned a more modern machine that would go deeper in all metal than it would in discriminate, yet that belief still seems to linger out there among certain circles of people. Now, I'm not saying this holds true for the Excalibur or even certain older versions of the Sovereign. Too many people are reporting PP goes deeper for them so I'll have to mark that up to specific machines and ground conditions. For me neither are deeper in PP than discriminate, though I still need to run some tests on All Metal Fixed (once ground balance is set via tracking) to compare to discrimination mode.

I don't think your Excaliburs are "broke" (if you weren't joking) in that they are not a non-motion all metal pinpoint mode like the manual states. I think that's a misprint. In fact, I just noticed a new add by Minelab in Lost Treasure stating that the Excalibur was a Pulse Induction machine! I bet they meant to say the depth of a PI. That's going to throw a lot of people off.
 
I have been reading this thread for a while and wondering about a few things that I think Critterhunter just cleared up. First, why would the AM be deeper than Disc? Is there a distince difference in the technology between the two modes? Critterhunter's idea about the older machines and the Disc. abilities seems to be plausibe, but is there any real literature about this? I have to agree with Critterhunter and the other people posting that they don't see a significant difference in depth with AM. I always hunt in Disc. I have been hunting with some people that use AM and switch back to Disc to check. It seems they have to switch an awful lot and on the Sov, that is a pain in the neck to keep doing because of the placement of the box. They swear by it but I haven't noticed a difference. I hunt with the GT and a WOT. I consistently find dimes at 18 inches and more. The holes I dig on the beach are ridiculous sometimes and we can't believe it finds things that deep. I use a shovel instead of a scoop. For the past few weeks I have been checking what seem to be my deep signals on discriminate (very weak sounds) with AM. I find that in every case, I have trouble noticing any change in threshold after I switch. I can't see the advantage of doing this method. Every time, my signals are stronger and louder in Disc.
 
To put the record straight re motion or non motion in pinpoint i emailed Minelab and this is the reply

Greetings Derek,

Many thanks for pointing this out.
You are absolutely correct - it is an error.
It had been noted prior to your e-mailing us but obviously has not been
re-printed yet. I am sorry for any inconvenience.

Highest regards and thanks for your business.

Des Dunne
Field Application Specialist
Minelab International
Laragh
Bandon
Co Cork
IRELAND
 
sandfisher said:
I have been reading this thread for a while and wondering about a few things that I think Critterhunter just cleared up. First, why would the AM be deeper than Disc? Is there a distince difference in the technology between the two modes? Critterhunter's idea about the older machines and the Disc. abilities seems to be plausibe, but is there any real literature about this? I have to agree with Critterhunter and the other people posting that they don't see a significant difference in depth with AM. I always hunt in Disc. I have been hunting with some people that use AM and switch back to Disc to check. It seems they have to switch an awful lot and on the Sov, that is a pain in the neck to keep doing because of the placement of the box. They swear by it but I haven't noticed a difference. I hunt with the GT and a WOT. I consistently find dimes at 18 inches and more. The holes I dig on the beach are ridiculous sometimes and we can't believe it finds things that deep. I use a shovel instead of a scoop. For the past few weeks I have been checking what seem to be my deep signals on discriminate (very weak sounds) with AM. I find that in every case, I have trouble noticing any change in threshold after I switch. I can't see the advantage of doing this method. Every time, my signals are stronger and louder in Disc.
Click to expand...

then you have found which is deeper for where you hunt with your sov. part of what this thread has turned into it seems is to prove one is deeper than the other everywhere and thats just not the case. It doesnt prove itself by literature but by you or whoever setting their machine up correctly in both modes and trying them on various targets, which is deeper will show itself.
just trying to keep things in perspective.
 
I KNEW that had to be a misprint! Now shoot them a letter and ask if PP is deeper than discriminate on any Excalibur or Sovereign model. :detecting: Seriously, worth a try! While your at it ask them what frequency(s) All Metal or PP put into the ground compared to BBS (discriminate) mode. I bet it's only using a single frequency in PP or All Metal.
 
Wrong to ask Minelab. They listen to customers, but not their own personal experience.

Wrong on frequencies. Same waveform in any mode. Same frequencies transmitted in any mode.

HH
 
Hey, it doesn't hurt to ask. After all, they built the machines. Also, if "All Metal" or "PP" is still using BBS the same as Discriminate then I would have expected Minelab to play that up in their advertising material. In this day and age of competition I doubt any company would pass up the chance to gloat on every feature they have over the competition.

I should have chose my words more carefuly. It wouldn't surprise me that the signal probably doesn't change that is being transmitted into the ground, but I'd be real surprised if it's still processing it the same way. More than likely PP or All Metal is only paying attention to certain parts of that signal. If you want to look at that as using only a few frequencies or however else that's fine, because there is obviously something less about how the machine is operating compared to Discriminate since All Metal needs to be ground balanced.

With BBS in discriminate the processing eliminates the need for that, so I would expect the same to be the case in All Metal if it was also "running on all cylinders" (meaning frequencies), or at least being used in the same way that would eliminate the need for the All Metal ground balance. If you've got the information on how, what, or otherwise I'd like to hear about it. Otherwise maybe Minelab can fill in those gaps for people.
 
Minelab is not going to tell you how the internals work. About the only thing they will admit to is the coil preamp...because a lot of people already know about it anyway.

HH
 
One thing that worries me about the GT ISTHIS no manual ground balance , i found that on my musketeer i get way better depth in all metal because i can set the ground balance just a bit positive on a GT you can not do this
 
does your musky go deeper than your gt. i had an older sovereign and while i can't say that it went deeper i did find a lot of coins that i missed with my whites and cz-5. i have found a few more with the explorer but nothing but 1 wheat with the t-2 which has ground balance.
 
Art, Apart from what minelab confirmed i tried it on the excalibur 2 and its definately not non-motion in pinpoint, unlike the etrac
 
I almost didn't read your post because of where you placed it in the thread.
Are you sure you were talking to me or critter? I can't tell.
HH
 
I found out that Sovs are motion only detectors within just a few minutes of using my first Sov. This drives first time Sov users nuts!! They can't pinpoint in all metal because the light does not come on in their heads that it does not have a no motion pinpoint. It was no problem for me for a simple reason....I had been pinpointing in a motion discriminate mode with a different detector BEFORE I got the first SOV!!! I found that all the tuning and de-tuning was a royal pain in the butt.

I also started out with the understanding that this was going to be a different kind of detector all together, along with a different kind of coil. I understood that I had to throw away most of what I knew about my previous detector and start from scratch.
Holding on to old ideas about other detectors is not something you want to do!!! You have to learn how THIS detector works.

HH
 
:biggrin: i'm in the same boat, wasn't sure if the WRONG message was for me or CH hence my post.

I think your right about the learn from scratch, lots have problems changing from the explorer to the etrac as they are always comparing, whereas people new to minelab seam to pick it up faster, although similar they are different
 
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