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SEF 15x12 First Hunt! She's A KEEPER!

Finally got the SEF back on the GT after letting the spray on liner set up for a few days. It was a joy to be back out in the field with this coil because the 10" feels like a sniper coil to me now. I went back to the spot I had dug the standing liberty quarter a few weeks back. As I said, this spot has been gridded hard with a few of my Explorers over the years. I only had about an hour to hunt but it wasn't long before I got a wheat at about 8" that gave a perfect ID/tone from any direction. In the plug about 5" above it was a wad of foil. A little while later I was getting a signal that was jumping from 173 to 176 or 178 depending on which way you swept over it. It sounded smooth so I knew it wasn't a screw cap. I was hoping it was maybe a silver or two mixed in with some pennies or other items but it turned out to be a big black boy scouts pocket knife at about 5" deep or so. I've dug more pocket knifes with the GT than I have in a long time with other machines. Seems also to be producing many interesting finds (tokens, buttons, etc) like the good old days when it seemed like I'd always walk away from a hunt with a pocket full of interesting "keepers" that weren't coins. Also dug a nickle and a quarter that had both been in the ground for a while because they were 4 to 5" deep. I know that at this spot any items that deep or deeper have been there for years, so I must have missed them with the Explorers. The quarter gave a perfect signal one way but was harder to get to climb to 180 the other. It still had great audio, though, so I just knew it was going to probably be a coin on edge. Sure enough it was standing straight up and down in the hole. Score another point for both the GT and this great coil at finding coins standing on end. Never dug so many coins on edge with any other machine. Several of my silvers have been this way, including the 1855 seated quarter in mint condition.
 
One great tool I've found with this coil but would work with any coil is to check targets that might be false iron coin spikes at depth before digging. To do this I'll pin point the target while still in discrimination mode using the tip of the coil at the base of the "V" (as described previously). Wiggle the coil forward until it just starts producing the proper target ID, then flip over to regular pin point mode and see if the target has moved. Do the same two steps at a 90 degree angle on the target. If it stays pretty much in the same spot when switching from discrimination to PP or vise versa then it probably isn't iron. If, however, the target has moved a good 3 or more inches on you or so then you are probably picking up a false coin hit from iron. However, it's rare for a iron coin spike to give a good ID from two directions, so even if the target moves when switching modes I'd be more prone to digging those just in case. Use discriminate to pin point it since there may in fact be a coin with iron off to the side, and you don't want to PP using pinpoint mode and end up chasing down the iron signal instead.

Also, I've noticed that there is most of the time a distinct difference in tone quality between that of a coin and a false coin hit. Even if the target only gives you a "COIN" signal from one direction it will often sound much better than iron, which tends to produce washed out or "ghostly" audio. Another trick is to judge the target's depth by the audio. If it's fairly shallow yet is hard to get to lock on (acting like a real deep coin) then chances are it's just iron, where as a deep coin wouldn't sound nearly as loud. Deep coins often will have trouble locking on even with the wiggle, but the audio will remain good and the numbers will at least get up into the 140's and 150's and sound like a coin, while iron will often bounce into the negative numbers (iron) and then quickly jump into the positives back and fourth.
 
It's been a while since I've gone out for a serious hunt, and by serious I mean 6 or 7 hours of now stop detecting. It was hot today but I figured it would do me good to sweat off some weight anyway. I was in one of those moods where I was motivated to grid an area hard and dig every single signal above iron regardless of how junky the audio or ID was. Many times when doing that you'll learn how certain good and bad targets respond due to being masked, on edge, in heavy iron or minerals, or at the fringes of detection depth where a proper ID isn't always possible. Since I was in one of these moods I figured I'd do it right and head over to one of my known deep coin spots. That way I could really put the 15x12 through it's paces with my buried dime calibration method and see just how deep this coil will go. I *know* there are deeper coins at this site because it has a lot of history and mercs, washingtons, and rosies are already at fringe depth for most machines at around 7 to 8". Like I've said, I want to prove to myself that this coil is deeper than the 10" Tornado. I'm sure it probably will be in low minerals but this medium mineral location would be a good test bar to see if this coil is going to have less depth than say the 10" or 12x10 due to it taking in too much in the way of minerals as it reads the ground. Again, I'm not talking about stability here. This coil is more stable than the stock coil, allowing higher sensitivity settings. But as also said many times before, max stability/sensitivity doesn't equal best depth on these FBS and BBS machines from my experience.

Anyway, not that I've built up the prologue to the hunt I'll poor cold water on your enthusiasm because the site had a sporting event going on. It's a large area to hunt but I don't want to risk getting kicked out for any reason. It's one of my favorite sites so I always lean on the side of caution in order to head off any potential problems. Not to mention I don't like having a bunch of kids following me around while I hunt. So off I go to another favorite spot of mine that also has deep targets. I fully intended to head to the mowed grass where I know there are deep coins but ended up wandering off into the nearby woods due to the heat and sun. At least I had some shade that way to give me as much hunting time as possible before passing out from heat exhaustion. In the woods I only managed a very corroded wheat penny, so bad in fact that I thought it was going to be an indian. I also came up with a token about the size of a quarter that says something like "13th street book exchange" and has the naked top half of a lady on one side and "Tails You Lose" on the other with her bare behind. By my way of thinking either side of that coin is a winner so I don't get the logic behind that. :smoke: I'm guessing it was probably for an adult book store and looks to be probably from the 50's.

This location as pottery shards all over in the woods. They must have had some rip roaring parties back in the day at this spot because I've never seen so many broken cups and plates covering a good 200 yards of woods. It must have been a tradition to get drunk and then bust all the picnic items you brought with you. The stuff is everywhere. Picked up a broken cup and it said "England 1903" on the bottom. Man, if all that stuff was intact I bet there would be a fortune in pottery there.

After about four hours of digging just about everything above iron in the woods the only other keepers I had to show for my efforts were a few old plated forks and spoons. Somebody did a good job of cleaning out any coin signals in them woods and I bet they really did well with the silver. The ground here is hard packed clay mostly so I wouldn't expect to find any deeper coins by using the 15x12 at a location like this. Mostly in that top of soil 6 or 7" is about max depth stuff will sink to, so I figured I'd head out to the mowed grass area where I know some deeper coins exist thanks to better top soil and prior deep coins I've dug there with other machines. Well, by this time I'm like 4 or 5 hours into the hunt and once I get out into the sun I'm starting to sweat even more and that's when I realized that I'm a good candidate for heat stroke since I haven't drank any water since the morning. Still, before I left I figured I'd stick a silver dime in the ground here and see what the sensitivity calibration ended up being for that site. On a prior hunt there it turned out to be 2PM but today the ground is bone dry and I wanted to see if that made a difference in the setting. Sure enough, as I expected the machine preferred a setting just a hair above 3PM this time. In other words with less moisture in the soil sensitivity is going to drop a bit for best depth. Most people know you tend to get better and deeper signals with any machine when the ground is wet. Just the same, I managed to dig a few small old screw caps about the diameter of a dime at about 8" even with sensitivity set that low. They hit hard and ID'd like they should have, as a penny. I pretty much knew what they were by some traits to the audio but I wanted to see just how deep this coil was getting in this dry of ground and with that low of a sensitivity setting. Based on how hard they hit I would expect that I could have probably got a dime or penny at least another 2 to 4" deep, but I was so hot and thirsty by then that I figured I'd test that theory on another day.

So what was the point to this field report other than a little more sensitivity info? Nothing really, just wanted to bump this thread back up to the top. :bouncy: Seriously, I really want to put this coil through it's paces to prove one way or the other that it's deeper at least in some soil types, so I plan to have some more interesting and informative field reports to post soon.

I'd really like to hear from some 12x10 owners to see if they think that coil is deeper than the stock 10" even in high minerals. I'm sure it is in low or maybe medium, but I want to know if these coils can still produce maximum depth even in the roughest of soils. I'm not talking about masking here, I'm talking about the machine's ability to see coins at depth when they are washed in the larger ground matrix these coils see.
 
Oh, almost forgot the other main point I wanted to bring up. This buried dime test really helps to show you how a coin at fringe depth will respond. You want to keep sticking it deeper until the sensitivity narrows down to the perfect setting, but the side benefit is you get to see how those real deep fringe coins react. The pattern of VDI and audio they produce is unique and unlike trash for the most part. As you wiggle the coil in one spot over the coin you'll see the VDI dance it's way up into the 140's 150's 160's 170's, and it may or may not hit 180 depending on just how deep the coin is. Sometimes it can only get into the 160's or 170s, but it's not as random or all over the place (meaning it doesn't go up and down as much) as junk will. Pay attention to how the coin responds as the very fringe of depth and soak that in your memory. Once you do you'll know what targets you for sure don't want to pass up, and they are different in some ways than most trash. It's hard to explain but mainly the climb as you wiggle the coil is more uniform and the audio more solid than trash is.

Also, while doing the buried dime test once you have the sensitivity set properly via the Sovereign wiggle (keep sticking the coin deeper until only a very tight spot on the sensitivity dial produces the best or at least the easiest ID), next play with your sweep speed over the dime. Try everything from super slow to medium to fast. I'm finding what I would call a medium sweep speed to be the best, meaning it gives the hardest hit on the target while in "searching mode". Notice though that often the coin (since it's at fringe depth) won't give a coin response. Instead it may sound like iron or junk until you get over it and do the tight/fast Sovereign wiggle directly over it, then the perfect coin ID will show up with good audio. The point is that any time you hear the threshold null, change, or react to something that sounds like junk you should get over it and wiggle to check the target out. If you are relying on your normal sweep speed to tell you whether the target is worth checking out or not then I guarantee you you are missing deep coins. Any time you get a reaction of ANY kind from the threshold you need to stop and wiggle over that target to see what gives. I really mean that because I've noticed that often a deep coin will sound and ID like a pulltab until you investigate it properly. Even a shallower coin can do this if you don't hit it dead on and just nick it with the coil. Don't look at the ID and assume it's a tab because some 150's number came up. Wiggle right over that thing and it may very well give you a 180 ID. I've seen this more than a few times.

Last tip is don't hesitate to dig a target that can only get into the 150's or 160's. If it sounds deep then it could be a coin. If it locks right onto say 155 then you can expect that it's not a coin, but if it keeps trying to climb back and fourth then it could be a deep coin. By doing that buried dime test you'll not only be calibrating the machine for best depth but also be reminded yourself how deep fringe coins act and respond. This kind of practice will really sharpen your deep coin skills. Notice how the ID reacts as you wiggle and how the sound is. Then do the same over a piece of junk like a shard of aluminum can. You'll see that there is a distinct difference in how the trash sounds and acts versus that deep silver coin you are trying to decide to dig or not.
 
I was torn between where to post today's hunt on the beach, either in this thread or the "15x12 goes water hunting" thread. But, since I only use this coil for my land hunting now (preferring the stock 10" in the water for less drag) I figured this would be the best place for it. I was hunting one of the great lake's dry beach. We don't get the tides you ocean hunters do so dry sand is dry sand for the most part for us fresh water hunters.

Since I knew I wouldn't be hitting the water I decided to use my land rig complete with DigiSearch meter and do my best to grid out a large local beach. I'd say the area I hunted was roughly 300 to 500 yards in length, or at least somewhere in that ball park. The width of the beach is probably 70 to 100 yards wide by eye, but don't hold me to those numbers. Being a crossbow hunter for deer my skills at estimating yardage are more tuned for shorter distances of say 10 to 40 yards. Anything beyond that is a rough estimate for me.

Just trying to give you a feel for the size of this beach because I headed out this morning with the intent to grid the entire thing, from the edge of the water to the wooded tree line up on shore. I figured I might fall a little short of that goal because the beach is obviously a respectable size. Still, with the extra coverage of the 15x12 it would take the stock 10" coil three sweeps to equal the same amount of covered ground as the 15x12 can do in two. That speeds up things a little when covering vast areas like this so this coil was for sure in it's element.

I calibrated the sensitivity when I got there by finding a clean spot and then sticking my silver dime in the ground. It's only a theory but had I had a nickel or gold ring to use I would have stuck one of those in the sand instead. I'm sure it's pie in the sky thinking but I feel there is a slight chance that low conductivity targets should be used for calibration when that's what you are after. Perhaps the multiple frequencies of this machine (since the old rule in detectors is that around 12khz and higher hit harder on gold/nickle items) prefer a slightly different sensitivity setting depending on the conductivity of the target you are going after. I'm sure that's a stretch and really reaching in theory by any body's standards but the way I look at it it can't hurt...yet it *might* help. I've got to remember to start carrying a target with the same conductivity of what I intend to go after. Silver for that, copper for indians, gold or at least a nickel for ring hunting. I'm sure you're probably thinking I might have more luck carrying a four leaf clover or rabbit's foot in that respect but I say if it can't hurt then why not do it...just in case.

Anyway, I found that fringe depth for the silver dime was about 8 or 9" and that doing the Sovereign wiggle to achieve best ID/depth the sensitivity for this sand and this coil ended up being just a hair above 3PM on the dial. More close to 3PM than 2PM. I'm fairly confident of that fact because as I'm prone to do I re-checked/calibrated the sensitivity all the way up and down the scale three separate times to insure the results. While I could achieve a proper ID at around anywhere from 4PM all the way up to about 11PM, all settings in that range of adjustment were much harder to achieve and hold a proper ID on the meter with good audio. Beyond 11PM the ID became complete trash, and below 4PM it did as well. I really should have dug that dime up and stuck it another 2" in the ground to narrow the adjustment range down more as that would have showed me more easily exactly where it wanted to be. Still, with careful investigation of just how easy the ID was to achieve along with good/clean audio it became obvious that just a hair about 3PM was where the GT was performing best on the target. The multiple re-adjustments of the range of sensitivity to confirm all the above made me confident of that fact as well.

So after a good 10 to 15 minutes of calibration I was ready to grid. Threshold just high enough to hear. Volume at lowest. I can hear fringe targets just as well with it set to lowest volume and the character of the targets not to mention their depth seems more easy to identify for me with volume kept low. Maybe it's these headphones or my hearing but the quality of the target signal seems to be less telling in it's traits if I blast the volume, and as I've said before if the machine can pick up something at the fringes of depth I have no trouble hearing it...so that's why I don't crank up the volume. If it were other headphones things might be different in that respect, but with extensive testing of fringe depth targets full volume showed no improvement in depth in terms of me noticing/hearing the target. With the volume at it's lowest the difference in audio from shallow to extreme depths is much more scaled to me, meaning I can pretty much tell you exactly how deep that target is going to be based on how loud it is. The quality of the tone also seems more pronounced and filled with little details and traits to the target's potential when running it like this as well. I won't argue with those who are full volume advocates because hearing ability along with headphone choice can make all the difference with no wrong or right answers in that respect. It's very much up to the individual as far as I'm concerned. If I noticed any increased depth with full volume that's the way I'd run it, so make your judgements on your own as far as that's concerned.

No discrimination or notch. Noise Band 2, and 6 and 1/2 hours of hunting and griding non-stop. I even smoked on the run so there wasn't any breaks in that time span. I was that confident that I was going to walk out of there with a few gold rings or so. At the end of those 6 & 1/2 hours I took inventory of what I had to show for my efforts. A pouch full of round and square tabs, bottle caps, and your various other bits of junk that man kind leaves behind. Checking my "keeper" pouch I had a little less than $3 in change. 4 quarters, 3 or 4 nickels, and a bunch of pennies and dimes. That's it! Not even a junk ring. In fact, the only thing you might call some kind of jewelry would be the button off a pair of pants. :surrender:

(Message continued in a few minutes...)
 
I didn't finish gridding that entire large beach like I thought because too many people started showing up and I like to keep my distance to head off any problems with getting kicked out or something, but I'd say I was able to grid at lest 2/3rds or more of that beach....from the very edge of the water to the very back edge where the beach meets the woods. In other words, I covered every "zone" of possible activity when it comes to dry sand hunting, from where people generally set up their beach blankets, to where they'd build sand castles with their kids, to the wood line where somebody might sneak a leak or something.

My criteria in terms of what I wanted to hear to be "dig worthy" was a little higher than it normally would be hunting sand but only because I was on a mission to try to cover the entire beach. On any other day when sand or water hunting I'd dig any signal above a null regardless of how broken or unrepeatable it was. But today I raised my standards for sand hunting to targets that had to be at least 50% "there" in terms of quality of the signal. What that means is that even with that "high" of standards that a target would have to meet, it was still low enough that I was digging junk signals like bottle caps that will only repeat one way and null the other. Pretty much if I could get the target to hit from at least some direction I didn't care how good the audio or VDI was, but my other requirement was that if it sounded past 9" deep and wasn't a good sounding signal then I wasn't going to touch it. In other words, any good signal past that depth I was going to dig (or scoop in this case), but anything that sounded less than that depth I was also going to dig regardless of how junkie those signals sounded. I know, "dig it all" even if it only peeps once when gold ring hunting on the beach or in the water, but what was more important to me on this particular day was trying to grid the entire beach, not making sure I dug to China on any slight change in threshold each and every time.

So how did the coil perform in the dry sand depth/quality of signal wise? I'd say even with that very low sensitivity setting it was still getting impressive depth. 10 to maybe 12" on a penny or dime with perfect ID/audio was not a problem for it. I also dug square tabs as deep as probably 11 to 14" that ID'd properly and sounded off fairly loud. Sure, a few of those coins or tabs at those depths didn't provide as good of audio or stable VDI, but I'm willing to bet those might have been on edge or mixed in with iron. In fact, I know a few of them were because I saw a few be exposed as the sand drifted down into the hole slowly from the edges. I know I saw a dime or two that were standing straight up on edge and at a depth of perhaps 9 to 11" that's no small feat to hit something like that. It might have only sounded off one direction but I've also dug targets that were perfect from any direction and were also on edge on prior hunts.

The coil's sensitivity to tiny targets is amazing. I was hitting round tab tails at maybe 8 to 10" (hard to tell all the time that you didn't just miss them when you are scooping on targets that small). I'd also say what I've heard others say about this coil in that it seems to draw out and improve the quality of the audio, offering you more bits of detail as to the target's identity. It wasn't long before I could tell you that the target I was now hearing was going to be a shot gun shell casing. The odd "cup" shape of those targets will give a distinct sound and ID one way versus swept the other most of the time. It's rare for a coil this big to show that kind of detail in a target's "shape" or "texture". Often once a coil gets past 9 or so inches in size you start to lose that kind of detail at least to some extent. For example, on my Whites using the little 5.3" coil I could hear the "double chirp" of the two holes in a square tab. Sure, it was hard to notice but it was there so long as you paid close attention and of course the tab was laying flat. I'm not saying (yet) that being able to hear the two holes on a square tab is possible with this coil. I don't think that's going to happen, but I am saying that it will show you the odd edges of trash such as the cup shape of a shotgun shell by both audio and the drifting VDI depending on which way you sweep over it. Now THAT'S impressive for a coil this big. You'd expect to just hear a signal without any real detail with a monster of a coil like this, not be able to hear the "edges" or "shape" of the target with proper investigation swinging at it from different angles.

I'd say about 8 to 10" was maximum "perfect" coin ID/audio depth for the coil in *this* highly mineralized sand and with that low of a sensitivity setting. That's not something to laugh at. Most machines on the market would be lucky to get that kind of depth in perfect low mineral sites, regardless of which coil they used. No hard and fast rule here to the numbers I've listed above because obviously I was doing a lot of scooping and not much testing. Had I brought a ruler and a hand digger with me I could back up all the above numbers with what's left of my reputation among certain circles :lmfao:, but that's the best I can do for you in specifics on this particular day.

By the weekend I plan to do another dry sand hunt at another beach. What kills me is that this year I've spotting one junk ring by eye on the dry sand and dug a gold and a silver in the dry without hardly any effort (within minutes), and along with that the other day I dug a nice looking stainless ring with only about 10 to 15 small passes in a grid I was doing. Here I am today doing my most intense dry sand hunt yet all I got to show for it was enough money to buy a couple McDoubles and a small coke on the way home. By the way, man was I thirsty after this long and unproductive hunt. :cheers:

So there you go, another long story that goes no where with no ending or climax. Just trying to give you the "feel" of this coil, even on those unproductive days, to help you decide if it's worth buying for you. Wait until I get my hands on a 12x10. Then we're talking novel territory in the comparisons of these two coils in the field. :rofl:
 
Here's a thread I posted in the Explorer forum concerning the 15x12 that you might find of interest pertaining to depth...

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?19,1273495
 
A few days ago I headed out to a tiny old park that has a few picnic tables and that's about it. It's a patch of grass maybe 50 yards wide by 80 yards long, at least in that section. In the past I've dug a few mercs, rosies, and wheats out of there and a friend recently dug a barber dime there about 5" deep with not really much in the way of trash around it. I'm guessing in the past either that dime was one edge or it had some piece of rusty iron above it that finally washed away in the soil and so made it a nice easy no hassle find for him.

Anyway, this spot is very trashy and I believe there is some form of piping buried at one end of this section of grass as in the past we would get false coin hits along that one side. Not really a large signal I don't think, just constant coin falsing there. Dropping sensitivity to it's lowest does nothing for it. This isn't unique to the Sovereign because I remember my prior machines doing it in the same place as well as a 6000 Pro Xl.

I stayed clear of that section but the ground everywhere is pretty rough regardless with hot rocks, gravel, and a lot of trash in the dirt. I got a scratchy penny signal about 7 feet from one of the picnic tables and figured it was going to be a crushed screw cap or something. Turned out to be a very old silver looking (but not silver) religious metal. it was maybe 1/4th inch deep and from the looks of it it had been walked on, nicked, and scratched up over the years due to it's shallow depth and close proximity to the tables.

Nothing spectacular on this particular day besides that medal, but the 15x12 and GT was hot on nickles. I must have popped 4 or 5 in about 10 or 15 minutes, oldest being a 1940. Every single one of them read 142 on my DigiSearch Minelab meter. Very weird, as I find often nickles at other locations will read mainly about 146 on the meter, even silver war nickels. On the other had, I've dug nickels that read anywhere from 139 to 146 or 147. I just think it was curious that every one at this spot hit dead on 142. Usually there is slight variation at a given site where they'll all read within 1 to 3 digits of each other, meaning like 144 for one, 145 for another, and 146 for yet another.

Main reason I'm bringing this up is because I know at least for me round pull tab tails would give me fits early on in learning the GT. Generally they'll stay in like the 136 to 139 range, but at some sites they may range from like 139 to 142 or 143...right at the bottom of the nickel range. So how do you tell those tab tails from nickels? The nickels will sound "round" and coin sized and should stay at the same number or at the most change only by a digit regardless of which way you sweep over them. It's rare but a nickel can change by 3 digits here and there, but it's VDI as a whole is much more consistent and stable as compared to round tab tails. Tab tails will roam around more and never seem to want to settle down even if you keep sweeping over them at the same angle. In other words, expect the nickle to change a digit or two as you moving around it but in general it will most of the time lock onto one digit so long as you don't change your sweep angle. Tab tails, on the other hand, will keep roaming 2 to 4 digits up and down the scale even with the same precise coil placement. They also don't sound as round and big as a nickle and are more fuzzy when pinpointing, drifting off a bit and giving you fits to try to pin a solid pin point down. Due to the odd shape of a tab tail that's mainly why the VDI will change by as much as 3 or 4 digits depending on which way you hack at it.

Today we headed out to do another early morning water hunt at a beach on the great lakes. I brought my land rig complete with 15x12 because I was planning to just hunt the dry sand around the beach towel zone. Well a guy running one of those trackers that smooths the sand had already done the spot I was starting to grid. About a half hour later he comes back and erases my foot prints, so I got the idea he wasn't happy with me being there messing up his nice smooth sand. He had been smoothing at the other end of the beach and was pretty much done in my area but he made it a point to come and erase any trace of my grid pattern. I was being real careful to perfectly smooth out my holes to try to keep his work as perfect as possible but I figured after he did that I wasn't going to push my luck with the guy and end up getting kicked out by some high and mighty park police.

So with a few quarters, dimes, and pennies along with I think two nickles (can't remember exactly) along with your usual assortment of junk like pull tabs I decided to head into the water knee deep. Even though I was using my land rig, this large coil, and meter, I decided it would be a better idea to hunt in the water where I wouldn't be damaging this guy's masterpiece sand art. One of those quarters in the dry sand was the length of my Garret Pro Pointer deep yet gave me a perfect VDI and very loud audio. This was with my typical buried dime calibration that ended up being a 2PM setting for sensitivity. I was very happy with that kind of depth with such a loud response even at that low of a setting. I'm not sure of the Pro Pointer's length but I'm guessing around 9" because it looks to be about 2" shorter than my 11" digger, give or take a half inch.

In the water I managed a few more coins, one of which was a zinc that was so crusty that it must have spent it's entire life since it was minted in the 80's or something in the water. It was very deep yet gave a good zinc signal. Remember we are talking fresh water here where zincs don't fall apart quite as fast as they do in the salt. Oh sure, they get bad quick but this thing was beyond bad. Either way even if it hasn't been in the sand long it still was down there a good 9 or 10" with a good/loud/perfect ID. This was within the first 5 feet of water from the shore so I'm sure that thing has been gone over many times before by people. I had to stay right close to the water's edge because I didn't want to risk getting water up near my meter, which is pretty high being on top of my hand grip but just the same I'm not pushing my luck with my land rig.

A few other bits of aluminum and tabs. Only maybe an hour and a half total hunt from hunting the dry sand to where I thought I better wade and stay out of tractor guy's way. My two friend's with Excals that were water hunting wanted to quit early and head over to breakfast. Since one of them was buying I talked myself into going along.

After breakfast we headed off into the woods near a local park and within the first 20 minutes I get a nice penny signal which turned out to be a Junior Fire Patrol kid's ring. Probably from the 50's or something and junk metal. My friend started popping what at first we thought was going to be a stash of old coins out of one spot. I'm talking like 10 or so with many more still left in the whole (he got sick of digging them). At first I thought they might be pennies that had been run over by a train but it was obvious being that they were all the same perfect round size they weren't quite pennies. He's going to clean them up at home but it looks like there is no writing on them. If the cleaning does reveal anything of interest then I'm sure he'll head back and dig the rest of them up. I think he said they were giving him a dime reading. I'm betting they were some kid's fake play pirate's treasure that he buried all together in the woods. Reminds me of a cache of nickel tokens this guy dug last summer probably from the 40's or 50's, but I'm pretty sure this time these things are just some kind of slug.

That's about it for today's hunt. Nothing great, just a little surf and turf hunting with the 15x12. After being "forced" to use it in the water again I'd for sure say it's too much drag. After a few hours of sloshing that thing through the water any body's arm would be hurting. Go with the S-12, Excelerator 12.5" round coil (here it's very similar to the S-12), 12x10 (I bet this coil wouldn't be any more drag than one of those), or the 10" Tornado for your maximum sized water coil.
 
Somebody asked me this question in a PM and I feel others might find the information useful...

(QUOTE...)
HI Critter have a chance to pick up a 12" sunray for my sovereign I cant remember if yiu did any testing with this coil or not Is it much different than the 10" stock? thanks regards.
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No, I'd like to get my hands on one for testing, though. I'd really like to get a 12x10 mainly but I'd like to compare the two. I hear the S-12 is a good coil with slightly more depth than the 10" Tornado. It will separate fairly good in trash too, though I hear not quite as good as the 12x10 SEF coil. See, what I hear is that an SEF has the depth of the larger dimension yet with the separation of the smaller, so the 12x10 would say have the depth of a conventional 12" DD round coil, yet with the separation of a 10" round DD coil. In fact, I feel based on my use of the 15x12 that the detection line's width is even thinner (which is a good thing) than the 10" stock coil. It goes deep like a 15" yet I feel it's separation is about that of an 8" coil. Pretty outstanding if you think about it. Also, these coils have a hybrid concentric center to them that gives a wide broad response near the middle of the coil, yet the full cover from tip to tail of a DD equal in depth across it's entire length.

One thing I've noticed with the 15x12 is that although it's separation seems great anywhere along it's length, the thing really separates better using the tip or tail of the coil near the "V" shaped ends. I believe those outer portions of the coil are pure DD, yet as said with an even more tightly compressed field across that line's width (left right). For that reason when I want to investigate a target in trash it's typical for me to use the coil near it's tip (or tail if trash is towards my feet by I'm too lazy to get on the other side of the target and then use the tip). That's a good thing to remember- Be conscience when trying to separate targets with this coil (or any coil for that matter) that you need to work around it to make sure the coil isn't also seeing a piece of trash or other objects under it will checking out the object out towards the tip. Although it's not as pronounced on the stock 10" Tornado, I've also noticed that you get better separation of two targets by investigating it with the tip of the coil so as to avoid also picking up the junk. The field seems thinner at the tip or tail, though not nearly as much as it does on an SEF.

That above is probably why the SEF pinpoints so well using the tip or tail of the coil and the base of the "V" to find the target. Sweep away from the target using the V at either the tip or tail of the coil until you just lose a good signal on the target (proper ID), then crawl the coil back towards it until it gives a rock solid signal again. It will now be at the base of that "V" at either tip or tail of the coil depending on which end of the coil you used. I find the "concentric" center portion of the SEF too hot to pinpoint well with for me, but I also find using the center of the stock 10" coil also too hard to get very precise on. For that reason I've taken to using the tip or tail (usually the tail) of the 10" coil to pinpoint targets. That works well in the water since you can then stick your big toe right at the edge of the back of the coil to mark the spot for your scoop. I did that with the SEF as well when I used it in the water. Stick your big toe right in the center of that "V".

What's different for me is that on land I prefer to use the tip of the SEF coil, but also on land I prefer using the tail of the coil on the 10". Both of them I use the tail on when in the water since it just makes it so much more easier to feel that spot with my big toe and put the scoop in place along side my foot.

The "hybrid" or "morphed" field dynamics (part concentric but mostly DD) that they claim the SEF's have is true from my experience. It seems very hot (broader detection field from side to side) in the center of the coil, roughly the size of a large soup can. Yet the field out towards the tip and tail of this coil feels thinner than but just as deep as a typical DD. I feel this unique and different dual field generated by this coil is the main reason why it seems to unmask coins in trash or on edge that convention DD or concentrics keep missing over the years. Read and experienced myself to many shallow silvers at pounded out parks that were only 1 to 5" deep. Some of these were masked by iron or other trash and I think it's detection field hit on them better than other coils, but others were in clean spots and I really feel they must have been on edge in such a way that your conventional coil designs couldn't detect them easily as well.
 
I headed off the other day to one of my known deep coin spots to give the 15x12 another whirl at getting coins deeper than I have with the 10" coil. Right now the stock 10" coil holds the record for me when it comes to depth on any machine with a few coins at about 11" deep. With prior machines about 7.5 to 8" was about max depth I've ever got on say a silver dime. I almost gave up on the coins with the 10" coil thinking they must be large pieces of trash because they sounded so loud and ID'd too well to be coins at that depth. Needless to say I was amazed to pop a V nickle out of one deep hole and an indian out of another. Officially the deepest coins I've ever dug with any machine in my soil.

So far the 15x12 has got me coins at around 8 to 9" max depth I think, or at least somewhere past 8", but no coins nearly as deep as I've hit above with the 10" Tornado stock coil. As I've said many times before I'm starting to wonder if the medium to heavy mineral content in my soil makes the 15x12 see too much ground matrix to get deeper. Something like the 12x10 or Sunray S-12 might prove to be the biggest coil I can go to while still seeing improvements in depth. Not sure of all that yet, as I have dug some tiny little targets like a sinker at 11" deep with the 15x12 that gave proper ID for what they were. If it's able to see something coin sized or smaller at those depths then I would expect it to hit on coins that deep as well. Either way, this coil is still amazing for so many other reasons besides the as of yet unproven depth in my soil. I look at it this way, even running in Auto and popping silvers well over 7" deep with this coil is still deeper than most machines in my soil can do. It's so far *proven* depth on coins is already deeper even in Auto than other machines I've owned by probably a good inch or more, roughly estimating things by eye. With it's loud/perfect response on coins that would be fringe iffy targets I know I'm easily surpassing most machines on the market.

Still, I have a seeky suspicion that this coil might not be as deep as the stock coil with the mineral content I have around here. I've been telling myself that now that I've found the "best" method to calibrate sensitivity for most depth I might start seeing those deeper coins. I felt that running at the edge of stability was blinding me to deep coins with the testing I did. So off I go to this spot and give it a good three hour hunt. It's nothing to pop 7 or 8 wheats at this site in that amount of time at depths of 7 to about 7.5". I can't tell you how many times I've popped wheats at those depths there, yet the site is so large that I know many more at even those depths have to be still around, and with many more of them and older coins at even deeper depths based on the history of this site.

Calibrated the sensitivity with my buried dime test and found that with it buried just under 8" deep once again roughly 2PM on the dial gave me max depth/best ID & audio. Didn't manage one single wheat penny or any other coin past about 7" deep for that matter. I did end up with several shallow nickles we had missed before yet had been in the ground for years from the looks of it and the date on them. My only good find for the day was a sterling silver football helmet from a chain about the size of a nickle at roughly 2" deep. It was acting much like a copper penny in response but I think that's due to the odd shape it has. Any other piece of silver that size I would expect to be dinging off at 180 with every sweep, but this thing was dipping down to like 179 or 178 here and there like a copper penny.

So now I'm really getting suspicious of this coil getting deeper in my soil. I'll still give this coil a 9 on a scale from 1 to 10 because it excels in every other aspect so far. Just haven't proven it's deeper than the 10" yet. It's coverage alone is superb when you need to cover large areas such as the beach. I've never really hunted this site for more than a few minutes with the stock 10" coil so I plan to throw that on and hit the area again. If I start popping coins deeper than the 15x12 there then it's time to look at the 12x10 or S-12 for max depth in my soil. Have to give the 15x12 more field tests to prove this one way or the other, though.

One thing I'd like to touch on before going is what I've found works best for me at depth or with multiple targets when pin pointing. As I've said I use the "V" at the tip of the coil to mark targets with. Seems easier to use and more precise than I can ever get with the center of the coil. That V really is like a laser or arrow pointing right at the target. I have found when the target is past about 8" deep that pin point gives me no response some times. Or at other times pin point sounds off to nearby trash and gives me trouble isolating targets. When either one of those things happen I find pinpointing in discriminate mode using that base of the "V" to work very well. In fact, I'd say it's more accurate pinpointing in discrimination on this coil for me than using pinpoint is on the stock 10" coil. It's just so easy to wiggle the coil forward until you just hit on the target's ID perfectly and often that means it's right at the base of the V. I find myself not even going into pinpoint even when it's so easy using my remote PP switch I installed on my GT. It's that good.

One other thing I've noticed sometimes with pinpoint mode that confuses me is that it will sound off to the target over a wider response area than it should. After digging the target I'll confirm it was coin sized yet the audio in PP will sound off for like 4 or 5" off to the side of the target even when using the very tip of the coil. I'm not talking about a false coin spike from iron as often when you go into PP you'll see it's really off to the side and that usually means it's a false iron hit. I'm talking about something that turns out to be a coin or at least non-ferrous and coin sized yet it gives me a wide hit over a wide area. Further investigation reveals no iron or other targets that discrimination isn't sounding off to yet they might show up in pinpoint. When I go to PP and the target doesn't give me a nice tight defined PP spot or starts acting like above with a broader response area then I instantly just go back to discriminate and PP the target using that mode. With practice it seems just as good in accuracy on this coil.

You don't have to check it from different angles because it's so good but I often do anyway. I'll wiggle the coil forward in short sweeps until it just sounds/IDs properly and then I know it's right at the base of that V. I'll then mark that spot in my mind and come at it from a 90 degree angle with the tip of the coil again, doing short sweeps only a few inches in length as I approach the target. If it's slightly off from where the first PP put it then I'll go right in between those two spots or check from another angle again. Often you can narrow it down to a spot about a half an inch in diameter where it's going to be. If it's shallow I can usually hit it the first time with my screwdriver. If it's deep I can usually cut a much smaller diameter plug and still have the target on the first try.
 
Critter,
Perhaps some fo the coins that you are finding have a "Halo" effect around them from being in the ground so long ......With the soil as mineralized as it is there by you , perhaps the coins are going thru some process in the ground that the additional minerals contribute to ...... Sort of like digging in an area where there was nails , and you are still getting readings from the rust in the ground ..... Just a guess , but I've marked targets that I thought were larger than what they were , and they were generally targets that have been in the ground for quite a while !!.....????????.......Just a guess , no real scientific evidence .........

I think that the fact that the SEF coil is more quiet , and that it seperates so well , is good in it's own right .....I think that you may have hit the nail on the head with the ground that you are dealing with ..... The only way you will be able to prove differently is to go hunt somewhere where the soil is NOT so highly mineralized and see what results you have ..... I remember thinking in some of your earlier threads about depth and sensitiviy being set at the 2 pm setting and thinking ...." Why is he so fixed on the 2 pm setting ? " ..... NOW I know why ..... I think you have hit a road block here buddy .....It doesn't matter how big your headlights are , you are NOT going to see thru that dense fog !!!!.....The SEF runs so quietly and so well in so many conditions, that I don't think that it's hurting you , and in some respects , it is helping you , but giving you more depth ? ......Only you can be the judge of that ..... I sure do hope that I'm wrong and you find someting nice a foot down !!..... BTW , I don't think that you would do so much better with the 10 x12 SEF , but then again ......???????? ....Jim
 
What amazes me is your volume setting, to the point i decided to do some experimenting to see if it made a diference.
Sov GT with 12x10 and sunray gold headphones limiter on. this time of year in the dry sand 99% of the targets are in the first 0-6 inches so i decided to go in the wet as i have given the dry zone a good hammering during the winter to clear out the deeper items. I started to hunt in the normal way(volume almost full on the gt and headphone with limiter on) looking for a deepish target to try the different volume settings, for the first hour or so not much, the odd coin, pulltab and a couple of broken zippers but nothing very deep.
Doing my normal very open zigzag to find the coin line i noticed a darker patch(the beach here is very fat) so i made a beeline for it as its usually a small depretion that hold deeper stuff, sure enuogh a slight murmour as i passed over something that caught my attention. I homed in on it(as my fist pass had been slightly short of the exact spot)and it gave me a defo 1
 
Kered,
Perhaps your conditions are similar to mine .....Mineralization is not as high as what Crtiter is experiencing where he lives ..... When beach hunting where I live , I can go higher with my Sensitivity without a problem, but I ALWAYS have my volume up , and my Threshold just barely audible .... YES, when I hit a target I surely know it , but I also bring in those deepys too that are barely audible ....You really have to ride the Sensitiviy on the beaches by me ....FORGET AUTO !!.... I'm wondering too if it might not be an audio frequency problem .... Perhaps on the deeper , more faint targets , the audio frequency is such that for his hearing might not be optimum ... Maybe a higher ptich would do it ? ......Not sure ...Again just throwing it out there , but I"m leaning more toward the soil conditions where he lives .... If an area is hiighly mineralized , the detector is bsically just bouncing off of that , and does not allow him to go deeper because of it ..... He is also mentioning that he can go deeper in regular soil than in dry sand ..... A lot of places I hunt with my E Trac in soil , I will stay in AUTO as getting too high with the sensitivity is just TOO noisy .....On the beach , I can let er rip, and auto is out of the question !!..... Just the opposite of what Critter states in his area .... ????......Jim
 
My sunray golds do a great job on the sovereign with the limiter on on shallow blasts, if i turn it off the sound is unbarably loud, they don't seam to perform as well(re limiter) on my etrac though, probably because it just overloads rather than give you a real blast, normal and deep targets aren't afected at all and its easy to tell the difference between normal and shallow limited targets as you get a type of stataco sound when the limiter cuts in, deeper ones aren't affected at all other than you can hear them with more volume, background noise is cutout very efectivly, that helps too.
 
I have noticed the same thing on the amount of volume, I use Black Widows and run with the
volume wide open with the limiter on. If I cut back on volume I start loosing targets SEF 12x15
on Sov. GT, very mild ground here in Texas also on the beach.
 
Hmmm just noticed in my post that the euro symbol is not showing up ?????????? makes for dificult reading. to make it a bit more comprehensive

use the following

and it gave me a defo 1euro signal.
slight change in the threshold from the normal tone to the 1euro tone
i dug it up and sure enough it was a grubby 1euro coin that.....

test
 
If the 15x12 is too big to see deeper than the stock 10" coil in most of my soils then I would bet that the 12x10 or S-12 might get deeper than the 10". It might be that something slightly bigger than the stock coil will still show you more depth in that it isn't past the point of no return in terms of seeing too much ground. As I've said, just because the 15x12 is stable at even very high sensitivity settings (higher than the 10" at some sites), that does not to me translate into more depth. Through my testing I've found that at least in my soil either one of these coils will get less depth when ran anywhere near the edge of stability due to being blinded to the target. It's not always 2PM, sometimes lower or sometimes higher with the way I calibrate sensitivity. I'm just looking for that spot on the dial that gives the cleanest or at least easiest target ID. More often than not that turns out to be 2PM regardless of which coil I'm using- S-5, 10", or 15x12. For that reason I don't think the coil size really relates to sensitivity level. I'm leaning more towards the RX gain signal's amplication process starts to degrade target signal quality once past a certain point on the dial. It might be either that or the introduced noise from the ground "signal" due to my soil which keeps an ideal setting somewhere much lower on the dial. Not even sure yet that the 15x12 is getting less depth than the 10". I have dug some tiny junk with it at very deep depths. I just know that thus far I have yet to dig any coins as deep or deeper (around 11") than I have with the 10" stock Tornado.

Perhaps you may be right about the volume aspect of things, though I always keep it low with any of these coils so that would seem to rule out it's effect on depth between them. I have tested full versus minumum volume on targets at fringe depth and can see no difference in depth between them. Even with the lowest volume if the GT can hit on the target in any respect (slight change in audio or VDI moving) I can easily hear the target. Turning the volume up only makes it louder, but doesn't seem to offer me any more depth. Maybe that's due to my hearing or these Sony Studio phones. They are lower in ohms than what Minelab recommends and so I would assume that makes them louder by default, resulting in the lowest volume setting providing me with a comfortable level and maybe letting even soft signals sound off fairly loud. I even stuffed the ear muffs with some foam as it was still just a tad too low for comfort even with volume all the way down. Otherwise surface targets really blast me. I've tried hunting at full volume with it and if I come across something shallow or god forbid a pop can it's simply way too much volume.

Maybe I'd notice a slight increase in depth by switching to those Sun Ray headphones and using the limiter. Not sure either way on that so I'm not saying your wrong. I just know that in my tests I can see no more depth by having the volume louder, but I'm willing to re-test that theory in the field to firm things up. If it was simply volume I would figure that I wouldn't be getting coins deeper in the sand than I am on land. Right now this SEF has got me coins 9" to maybe a foot deep in the sand and I don't seem to have any trouble hearing those loud and clear. When I talk about the max coin depth it has compared to the 10" I'm referring to on land where I mostly hunt. As I said before this is the first machine I've used that gets more depth in my sand and not less compared to it's land performance. The GT's land performance is awesome. The 10" coil has got me coins deeper than I have on any machine. In the sand the machine is just outrageous in how deep it will go with either coil.

I think I'm back to strapping the 10" coil on and trying that out at one of my known deep coin spots. You might remember that this spot was where I left a deep coin last winter because it was too cold out. I remember (think it was that day) sweeping around with the 10" coil and hitting like 8 or 9 deep coins that I was pretty sure were going to be wheats. I never dug them because I was in the mood to try to cherry pick. I've felt it strange that I have gone back there with the SEF and am not hitting those numerous potential wheat signals that seem to be all over this site. Either way, I haven't really even used the 10" coil at my deep coin spots all that much either so I'm inclined to strap that puppy on and see just what it can do in comparison to the SEF. When I saw deep coin sites these are known areas where even rosies and wheats are pushing 7 or 8" deep. In total I haven't really hunted these known sites much at all with the GT using any coil. Most of my hunts have been in unknown areas or areas with more trash and a tendency for less deep targets. I really need to put the GT through that kind of workout with both coils for comparison where I know most old coins are going to be at fringe depth or deeper for all my prior machines.

I'll test the volume thing more and maybe try another pair of headphones. If these had a limiter circuit I'd for sure run full blast volume just in case. The other odd thing about full volume to me at least with these headphones is that it seems to give me less target traits in terms of audio details. I also can't tell depth as well. That could all just be because of these headphones where full volume is just too much for them or just the fact that I'm just not used to the way it sounds at full volume yet.

If I missed responding to any of you guy's input I'll get back to you later. I'm printing this out to read and consider all your points, so thanks.
 
Just an idea but
I think there is a difference in first finding a target with low volume then turning it up to make it louder as apposed to finding a faint target at high volume then turning it down to make it disappear, at low volume this same target will not be found and you would pass over it on low volume not knowing it was there
 
I know what you mean and I've thought about that. I've hunted with full volume here and there and when I've found something very soft and fringe I've dialed the volume back to low and I could still hear it with no problem. Have never noticed anything different, but I will check this out more in the field because I don't want to risk the loss of depth. Might be my headphones make it an non-issue.
 
you might want to try turning up your sensitivity on those quiet tones too !!.....I had my sensitivity to where I thought would work well the other day, and went a while that way ...I had a very faint signal, and tuned up the sensitivity because I already knew my volume was up ......It came in nice and clear compared to what I first heard ... I'm thinking now that I need to check my sensitivity a little closer now when hunting for a bit .....Jim
 
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