School Yard

[Tom_in_CA]

tarajudy, do you know for a fact that this school is public ? I mean ... versus a parochial or private school of some sort ? Or a school that was sold as surplus, and is now operated by a montessori or some type private user now ? That was not an LEO or school person talking to you, was it? So what makes you sure they weren't full of $%#@ ?

Assuming it's truly a public school, ... and assuming you want to hunt there more (like if you were furiously digging silver coins at the time), then ....... I hate to say it, but I would just go back when that single lookie-lou busy-body isn't around. Like .... hunt it at night if need be.

And like you: I'm old enough (on the ugly side of 50!) that I remember when school yards were simply the after-school hours defact playgrounds. And even though they began to get fences around them in the 1970s, that still doesn't seem to stop people from walking their dogs, flying a kite, jogging the track, etc.... The difference between detecting at those more "innocuous" things, is that detecting has ... uh ... "connotations". Let's face it: someone may think you're about to leave a hole, or whatever. Ok, fine, then what they don't see doesn't hurt them. It's gotten to where I do most of my school and park turf hunting at night these days. So peaceful, so serene.

 

[Surfinsafari]

John...I haven't heard any updates on Crook county. I guess you have to be gay or a drug dealer or some slob fisherman to have any rights in Crook county FP.

 

[Elton]

Tom, I too will not dispute you, and your statements. I feel that in the past (Not to distant) Schools were perceived to be open to the public private property..... That said with issues now confronting schools
and student safety their now reverting back to the fact the Board of Education is a semi public taxed supported private entity. The general public is no longer in many instances welcome on the property unless it is a sanctioned school event..

More people are aware of the surroundings ( Schools) and keep an eye out as they have been encouraged to do by law enforcement and the Local School Boards of education. Due to violence, and trespassers in some communities.

Fences are being erected, people are being questioned, and asked to leave. Detecting is being viewed as a form of destruction, and certainly not a sanctioned school event.

Is that right. Well maybe, or maybe not. Depends on how it's viewed I guess.. Digging holes and removing items could be a negative viewing.. Being there for a non apparent reason could be a negative viewing.

It seems we are all over looking the original post party stated Police told them to leave, or be subjected to trespassing.. End of story for that person.They have been warned.. Now they need permission to hunt that private property..

In today's world in a small town atmosphere one may still be able to detect on school property. In large cities, some areas maybe. Some no.. difference in atmosphere of the community does dictate that.

All the exceptions of small town, big town , counties, townships does not alleviate the property is in fact private property.. One needs permission to be completely correct in being there.

As Larry IL stated. Their are many (Public owned) lands we can not detect.. Schools perhaps will very soon be one of those places in most communities ..

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Take a look at some of your bullet points:

" ..... The general public is no longer in many instances welcome on the property ...."

" .... the fact the Board of Education is a semi public taxed supported private entity. ... "

" .... Detecting is being viewed as a form of destruction, and certainly not a sanctioned school event...."

" .... Digging holes and removing items could be a negative viewing....."

What do all these things have in common? They all require someone to see you or I, and gripe about it, in the first place. So .... go at off-hours, when such lookie-lou busy-bodies aren't present. Presto, problem solved.

 

[Surfinsafari]

Tom...so what you are saying that if a site is deemed off-limits then we should show up at off hours and we are ok? I don't know how far your imagination stretches but Illinois is WORSE than Cali. Can I ask what you are implying? Remember, we are the two most mismanaged, financially broken states in the Union. Something that might fly where you are might not fly here.
I'm a dedicated fly-in-the-oinment so I appreciate the rebel in you but can you clarify your meaning?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Surfin-safari, Your question implies that something illegal is going on, when you say:

... if a site is deemed off-limits ....

If THAT is true , that there is really a rule, then by all means: you're welcome to obey it. If there's really a rule that forbids, gasp , a) walking there, b) being there, c) setting foot there, etc.... , then sure, the md'r code-of-ethics *does* say "know and obey all laws", right ?

But I'm not so sure this is the case here! To me it sounds like a fluke griper. I do not interpret any old person who comes up and says "you can't do that", to necessarily constitute a "rule". I've even had cops come up and say that to me before. And upon further scrutiny, it turns out someone called them out. And once there, they had to justify their having come out. So it's easier to "please miss lookie-lou" and usher you on. It's WAY too easy to morph other ancillary things that *could* apply to our hobby, once you've raised the ire of a cop or nosy neighbor. You know, the "alter" and "deface" verbage, or harming earthworms, etc... But to me, none of that means a place is necessarily off-limits, UNLESS THERE WERE A TRUE RULE THAT DID INDEED say either : 1) no entry to anyone for any purpose, or 2) no metal detecting.

 

[Elton]

Seriously if the authorities,and or, owners do not want me there..I will find some other place to detect.
if the police have asked me nicely to leave once..Sir..That is good enough for me. Problem solved. I will hunt somewhere else that I know is an ok place to be.

I'm not going to get arrested looking for a few pennies.. I'm done here...... I will let my conscious be my guide . No sense trying to reason it out as different people have different thoughts..and some always think laws do not apply to them.....Not directed at anyone in particular here just a general statement so please don't anyone get all in an uproar...

 

[Tom_in_CA]

... some always think laws do not apply to them.....:

If there were *truly* a law saying a person can't be there, fine, don't be there. Or if you *can* be there, yet there were a true rule that said "no metal detecting", fine then, obey it.

But if not, a mere "scram" does not constitute a "law", does it ? I can think of parks where an isolated incident occurred (some singular gardener or dog-walker got their panties in a wad), but .... we just gave lip service, and nothing ever became of it.

So again, if the premise is that there's TRULY a rule saying that, then sure, fine, obey it. But if not ...... then it's a matter of not ruffling some singular person's feathers, then fine, I won't ruffle them.

 

[ironsight]

Seriously if the authorities,and or, owners do not want me there..I will find some other place to detect.
if the police have asked me nicely to leave once..Sir..That is good enough for me. Problem solved. I will hunt somewhere else that I know is an ok place to be.

I'm not going to get arrested looking for a few pennies.. I'm done here...... I will let my conscious be my guide . No sense trying to reason it out as different people have different thoughts..and some always think laws do not apply to them.....Not directed at anyone in particular here just a general statement so please don't anyone get all in an uproar...

I totally agree with Elton.
Arguing with a cop about finding a few pennies is not the battle i want to die in (or get arrested for). Its just metal detecting for cry sakes something the Founding Fathers had no comprehension of.
If a cop 'asks' me to do something as trivial as do not detect here, yes sir, if there's a NO METAL DETECTING sign, i won't detect there, if there's an enclosed fence around a school i also won't detect there either. Blame it all on busy bodies, school shootings by nut jobs and a now paranoid public.
If there's a strong local detecting community sentiment against detecting bans, by all means get petitions and get political the way the Founding Fathers designed it.

By not complaining, not arguing with cops or not detecting off limit sites.. is that a slippery slope to tyranny?...maybe!.. but i think that horse is just about out of the barn.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

By all means, don't dis-obey a cop. If you guys thought THAT was what I meant (or to argue with him over technicalities of laws right there, etc...), no, I did not mean that. By all means give lip service and move on . But be aware that a lot of times, if a cop is showing up, realize that often the ONLY reason, is because someone might have called. So they have to "please miss lookie-lou", when perhaps, they personally could care less.

Example: One time we had a cop usher us on (and yes, we gave lip service). But then he confided that he/they had gotten a call from a certain house that over-looks the exact corner of the park we were at. So he said, with a wink, "just go to the other side of the park where she can't see". Now I know you'll see that as the exception, since .... he was frank about the true circumstance. But I'm of the opinion that so too mght other occasions be the same thing, yet .... they don't necessarily go into detail.

 

[Elton]

[size=x-large][/size]Property That Is Open to the Public for a Limited Purpose

Your right to access government-owned property that is only partially open to the public is a bit more limited. If the general public is permitted to access only certain areas or for certain limited purposes, you right to access the property for newsgathering purposes is similarly limited. For example, some parts of a courthouse are open to the general public, but portions of the courtrooms themselves are accessible only by the parties in the litigation and judges' chambers are completely off limits to the public.

However, some public property, even though it is open only for limited purposes, can take on the attributes of a public forum discussed above. [size=x-large]A classic example of this type of property is public schools and universities. Although public school and university buildings are not wholly open to the public, some parts of a campus may be considered a public forum. If a school's large open quad is accessed from public sidewalks and streets and freely used by the general public with no apparent objection from the school administration, then the quad may be considered "dedicated" to public use, and therefore more like the traditional public forums of the public park and sidewalk. Additionally, if the school opens certain of its rooms for non-school meetings that are open to the public, those rooms, during those times, will be treated as public forums.

Remember that because public schools are not entirely public forums, school administrators often have the discretion to restrict the entry of outsiders, particularly while the school is in session. Check in with the school administration before entering school grounds or you may be liable for trespass.


Be sure to read the highlighted Blue areas

2911.21 Criminal trespass.
(A) No person, without privilege to do so, shall do any of the following:
(1) Knowingly enter or remain on the land or premises of another;

(2) Knowingly enter or remain on the land or premises of another, the use of which is lawfully restricted to certain persons, purposes, modes, or hours, when the offender knows the offender is in violation of any such restriction or is reckless in that regard;

(3) Recklessly enter or remain on the land or premises of another, as to which notice against unauthorized access or presence is given by actual communication to the offender, or in a manner prescribed by law, or by posting in a manner reasonably calculated to come to the attention of potential intruders, or by fencing or other enclosure manifestly designed to restrict access;

(4) Being on the land or premises of another, negligently fail or refuse to leave upon being notified by signage posted in a conspicuous place or otherwise being notified to do so by the owner or occupant, or the agent or servant of either.

[size=x-large](B) [size=x-large]It is no defense to a charge under this section that the land or premises involved was owned, controlled, or in custody of a public agency[/size].[/size]

(C) It is no defense to a charge under this section that the offender was authorized to enter or remain on the land or premises involved, when such authorization was secured by deception.

(D) Whoever violates this section is guilty of criminal trespass, a misdemeanor of the fourth degree.

(E) As used in this section, “land or premises” includes any land, building, structure, or place belonging to, controlled by, or in custody of another, and any separate enclosure or room, or portion thereof.
.

May 28, 2009 1:48 am at 1:48 am

 

[hunter_46356]

I've seen this same issue play out on several forums. I can't ever see there being a simple, correct or accepted answer that will satisfy any of us. There's way too many variables. different opinions, different conditions etc. I have never involved myself to this point but decided to make at least one point as clear as I can. I'm one of them bureaucrats that some of you blame for this access problem. Yeah imagine that a politician that metal detects and one who supports the hobby and respect the rules and laws if there are any in the areas I detect. It just so happens in my community there are no restrictions that prohibit metal detecting on any of our public properties. Since I have a passion for this hobby I've made a point to support it make it my personal business to keep an eye on those who also detect in my town. Not to be nosey but to make acquaintances and if necessary ask that person to be respectful of the property to ensure we can continue detecting. Our school system own several schools in my town. They own the property. Yes they are Public Schools but that does not give us specific permission to dig dirt there. There has never been an issue with the general public using any of the properties with discretion. There are no signs and there are no written rules or regs on how the general public is allowed to use their property. I agree whole heartedly with Tom CA "Out of sight out of mind" is one way to look at it. In other words use some discretion when and maybe where you hunt this type of property. Some more words of wisdom are "Leave No Trace" . In some cases we are indeed our worst own enemy. I had a short lived hunting partner who detects a certain piece of school property that has been hunted long before I even began detecting. I actually met his wife before I met him as she was digging a hole large enough to fit the whole 8" coil in the ground because they had no pin pointer. Her husband and ex partner was a trip. One of those guys who has gone through six detectors in three years, has become a self proclaimed expert on each one and each new one is the best. I took all his enthusiasm and luck in stride until I started catching him in lies that lead me to believe maybe he wasn't really that good or lucky. He was and is obsessed with this hobby. Being obsessed to the point you leave your plugs like crap cause you don't care or were in to big of a hurry to do it right cause you just gotta find that next target. In more than once I and another guy who detect the same place have gone back to fix his mess. I knew he was there cause I saw him digging with a 6" wide shovel. Denied it was his mess and said it must have been someone else. Nope I drove by, saw him and went back to fix his mess after he left and before anyone from the school system found it. Others have done the same to cover his tracks. He actually hunted during business hours at the edge of the administration building located at the same property and was caught by the Assistant Administrator told you cant do that here. Right or wrong it would have never happened if he would have used some simple common sense. That right there could have ended it for all of us. Told me he didn't care he was going back after hours cause he just knew he had a silver target he was going to dig. Didn't take long to realize he was not only a compulsive liar but a cheat. Planting finds, bringing targets and claiming he found them while hunting with me. Guess it made him feel big or better. Bad thing is he's still out there and if there's one there's more. We could be our worst enemy. or at least the few bad apples. These types are responsible for some of our lost ground. There are those among us who are so obsessed to even realize they are part of the problem and care more about personal acceptance and glory than you, I or the future of this hobby.

 

[ironsight]

Hunter_46356, you are both a politician and a detectorist a rarety who understands the issues and the idiots we have to cope with out there...and the consequences of those idiots.
(Just hope you never vote for red light cameras in your town!) LOL.

Yeah that one day you met me at that school ground, to say i was PO'd is an understatement. A bunch of very very large plugs most of which were protruding 2 to 4 inches above grade. I spent most of my time there that day trying to fix them and then left in disgust not even detecting.

Laying low, respecting property and being as invisible as possible to the world and as you said 'leave no trace' has always worked for me. I do however, whenever i spot a grounds keeper, ask if its ok to detect out of courtesy and respect if nothing else and then try to carry on a friendly conversation with them. Have never been refused and usually get some tips on what spots to detect. That is how i found out about that old baseball backstop hidden in the woods and brush at that school ground site.

Now over the past couple years, i have detected during business hours at that site but far away from the admin building. Since they tore down the old hi school building, its strictly a school district admin facility these days with no real student attendance. Remember, i got permission from that grounds keeper a good thing to have in your pocket just in case. Also whenever kids or little leagers showed up for practice, i promptly left.

Since that recent unfortunate incident where a detectorist hunted near the entrance of the admin building and with a shovel no less and got scolded by the administrator... a stupid in-your-face thing to do, my hunting sessions there have now been drastically reduced but when i do hunt there its only on weekends.

There are some out there with no common sense and no respect for other's property.
Can common sense be a learned trait?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Elton, everything you're saying is true. No doubt even public land has rules-of-use. Who's disputing that ? For example: If you waltz around nude in the park, you can not argue that it's "public land", blah blah, right? Why? BECAUSE THERE'S LAWS AGAINST NUDITY. We understand that.

So then, to apply everything you're saying to this topic of md'ing: If there are no rules saying "no metal detectors", then presto, it's not prohibited!

And yes, a duly appointed public park or school personell can come up and morph something ELSE to apply to you or I. Granted. Like to say you're annoying earthworms, or whatever. Yes they have that latitude in their jobs (because it's impossible to create rules that would address every last conceivable thing on earth that *might* happen). And if they do, fine, give lip service and move on. But notice that for them to have even made such an on-the-spot decision requires that they need to have seen you, and been bothered, in the first place. So why oh why oh why do so many md'rs think they can waltz nilly willy in high-traffic times? I mean, do we really expect red-carpets rolled out for us? Let's face it: Our hobby has "connotations". So the less persons who *might* see you and *could* dis-like it, the better.

And this tends to happen in turf, as we all know (because of the connotation of harming the grass). Which is why it's gotten to where I do 99% of my turf hunting at night now. NOT because I think there's necessarily anything "illegal" about it, but JUST so that anyone else who DOES, will not need to inform me of their princely decision.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

good point when you say: " There's way too many variables...."

Example, anytime any of us posts the opinion to help yourself to any park or school, that doesn't have any specific prohibition, ..... it can backfire, if the individual taking that advice to heart, is a "sore thumb" type of person. You know, the type person who acts skittishly, evasively, looking around at any passerby with the "oh no is he going to say something?" type persona. And who doesn't have the presence of mind to go at low traffic times, and tends to be in the middle of deeper retrievals when busy-bodies are present, etc....

So when anyone takes the side of the issue to "help yourself" (to combat the attitude of "we must grovel and ask permission at every sandbox we come to), the above caricature is always the risk. I mean, as much as I believe my stance to be true, it is NOT true if someone simply doesn't know how to conduct themselves. It's sort of like the art of picking up on women: There's no one secret formula recipe that will "certainly get the woman to accept your pickup attempt". It's also in the way you conduct yourself, act like you belong there, etc... That can not be taught.

Thus yes, there's always a danger in telling anyone to "help yourself". But there's also a danger is the admonition that we must all grovel at city halls wherever we come to. Because that can often-time result is the old psychology of "no one cared ..... UNTIL you asked" phenomenom

 

[ironsight]

And if they do, fine, give lip service and move on.

Tom, i agree with the 'high-traffic' thing but why give 'lip service' to an employee of that facility who tells you not to detect there?

That will only force them to dig in their heels further, keep a sharp eye out for future detectorists possibly leading to the logical conclusion of a 'war on detectorists'. If enough detectorists give 'lip service' they'll make it official with a NO METAL DETECTING sign then even during night, weekend or low traffic times it will be 'officially' ILLEGAL to detect there.
Giving any kind of 'lip service' is just bad PR for the entire detecting community.

If i enter a park for the first time, see no NO METAL DETECTING signs, see 'no metal detecting' on the park rules, see no caretaker and there's no to low traffic, i will assume its ok to detect and i do. Same applies to schools but only on weekends preferably Sundays and with no one insight on those school grounds.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

iron-sight: I think we have two different definitions of "lip service". It sounds like you think it means to tell someone off, argue with them, etc.... right ? But I'm using "lip service" to mean to agree with them and abide by what they're saying. Oh sure: I would alert them that I checked the rules, saw no prohibitions, and am leaving no trace/harm. But no, I would not argue. Aside from that simple and fast analysis of my beliefs on the subject. And then ........ move on for sake of peace.

 

[Goldstrike]

I really hesitate to post a reply because this subject comes up so often and gets a little contentious but here goes anyway!
What are schools for?........teaching our children.
What are school playing fields/grounds/ball parks/football fields/swings and slides etc; for?....the recreational use and for promoting sportsmanship and health and fitness for our children.
I could go on but the point is that although we pay for these facilities with our hard earned money, and yes, those taxes can be very high, schools and their playing areas and their campus's are dedicated facilities where we expect our children and grandchildren to learn and grow in a safe and protected environment.
Schools are not places where any person of unknown background with unknown intent can go and do what we do. Those facilities are usually maintained to a high standard, at great cost and the baseball fields, football fields on campus we all expect to be free of holes/depressions and any anomalies.
When groundskeepers/teachers/principals and school staff see a man/men (or women) holding strange equipment which can be mistrussed as a potential weapon, red flags fly at full mast and we as parents and grandparents want it that way.
In this crazy stupid day and age when if a child can just draw a gun, point a finger in a 'threatening way' fashion a piece a playdough into an 'assault' type weapon (saying this very sarcastictly) and can face being disciplined by detention and even expulsion, we need to think good and hard.....do we even want to think of going onto a school campus holding a 4 foot long metal detector and having a leche blade sticking out of our pants?
If you find a few wheaties or a half dollar or a silver dime at a particular school, were those few coins really worth risking having the groundskeeper, school police or staff to come over, questioning you over your equipment and conduct????
I have never detected a school campus and never will because there are a lot more places to detect without risking getting metal detecting banned in my home town and putting a black mark on this great hobby I enjoy.

 

[mudpuppy]

In nearly all daily activities, its best to 'evade and avoid'....that holds true for driving, or grocery shopping, voting, restaurants, etc...with a little planning and foresight, a fellow can avoid the traditional human high traffic times and it makes for a more enjoyable and safe overall Life experience in nearly everything...dont attract attention or leave any sign...

I find great satisfaction in how this sport of metal detecting allows a fellow to employ the practice of this art often, didnt expect it would when I started, but sure enough!...some may call it 'sneaking around'?..but it truly is a skill worth looking into to maximize your year afield with none of these issues popping up...that goes for everything you might want to enjoy outdoors, with or without your clothes on.....
Mud

 

[Tom_in_CA]

gold-strike, oddly, everything you're saying about schools (ie.: "dedicated use") can also be said of parks. I mean, someone can come up to you or I and object saying: "hey, this is a soccer field" (as if and & every other usage were "outside the usage scope", eh?). Or "hey, children are playing here" (as if you, being an adult in a kid's play area, is outside the usage intention of said area).

So I fail to see how *just* because a spot was built for an intended purpose, doesn't mean that someone else can't also go there and ... say ... fly a kite. Or jog. Or read a book on the lawn there, etc... I mean, if a place has to be "designated" to a particular function, in order to be used for that function, then let's be honest here gold-strike: When did you ever see a field that specifically made for the purpose of "metal detecting" ? Have you ever seen a portion of a park that ....instead of "basefall field", it said "metal detecting field" ? No, of course not. So I fail to follow your logic.

Yes it may be the logic of some busy-body who accosts you. I agree. Ok, fine then, avoid that one lookie-lou. If you want to call that "sneaking around" (as mud-puppy calls it in his post above), fine, then I "sneak around". It's sort of like nose-picking: not necessarily illegal .... but .... sheesk: don't we ALL sort of use a little .... uh .... discretion in our timing so as not to offend certain folks ?