Nice day at the park turns bad!!!:(

[Tom_in_CA]

Elton, it all depends on how you word things. "Discreet" vs "sneaky". But no matter how you slice it, detecting is a hobby that draws the stares of the curious folk ( "oooh, look at the man with the geigercounter thingy, I wonder what he's doing?") and has connotations: "gee, I wonder if he'll leave a mess?".

Think of it with this analogy Elton: Nose picking. Sure .... everyone does it. But for pete's sake we use a little "discretion" when doing it, right?? Ie.: we "sneak" and don't have approval from everyone, right? Detecting is a bit like that: It's a little sketchy in some people's eyes (so what, who cares), so .... sheesk, why do we think we have to find a way to make them love us? Substitute "nose picking" into your post, instead of detecting. It's a activity that's not specifically illegal, but yet, .... we don't parade it around those who might be offended. I guess that makes you and I "sneaky"? Sure.

I know you want seeooo hard to blend in, and have everyone love your hobby, and roll out the red carpet for you. If so, I fear you have chosen the wrong hobby. Sure it s*cks that there's not parks with neon signs saying "detecting welcome here", and "sure, go ahead and dig". And no, this won't improve by going and "fighting the attitudes". Because no matter how you slice it, we have the temporal evil process of extraction (read: "dig"). And as long as that's true, the best thing to do is draw LESS attention to yourself, not MORE.

 

[D Merc]

Guys, I understand what you are saying about hunting in low-traffic times, this is something that my father and I have practiced regularly. And if there are many people in a park area or say around a shelter house we do not go anywhere near that area to hunt, or often just leave all together. However, we were at this time hunting in the morning with very few people at the park, in an area with no one else around and then being approached by someone that simply pulls up to you in a vehicle shouting "Get your toys and get outta here" your left with the feeling that this person, or others at other parks, are simply waiting and watching for you to start hunting, and to attack you once you pull your machine out of your vehicle. Your left with a feeling that I need to be looking over my shoulder if i'm going to be hunting at this area...When my father pointed out the dead grass and ruts left by people driving their vehicles in the grass the grounds keeper replied "Well I cant catch everyone". Would this same grounds keeper have watched for someone to let their dog out of their car and attacked this person if their dog had tried to dig a hole? Would this grounds keeper have attacked a crew of men digging a trench to run a line to one of the shelter houses, or concession stands? Would the "Park Director" have told someone that had found a quarter, or a dollar bill laying in the park to turn it into the city immediately? Absolutely Not.

All I'm saying is that after having hunted this area so many years without problems, and then being confronted by a rude grounds keeper out of the blue, feels like a low-blow. The worst part about it is that my father and I live in the country, and this was our closest park and one of our favorite spots. We do have other parks, and back up locations to hunt, but they are few and far between, some even over an hours drive. I used to hate asking people if I could hunt their yard, or property; and I used to love the freedom of being able to hit a great spot like an old park anytime I felt like without having to ask permission, but after this encounter and another I had a few years back at a different park I am starting to feel differently. It's just a shame that responsible metal detectorists that wish to use parks to persue their hobby just like anyone else in the park, are losing their access to enjoy this great hobby because of that ONE person that wishes to ruin it for everyone.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Yes it is a shame. Sounds like you did use due discretion. It's bound to happen in this hobby, now and then. Heck, I even had a lady once say my metal detector was bothering her dog! (I think she thought it emitted sound waves or something??). So just like the inevitability of getting flipped off in traffic at some points in your life (by people who don't like your lane changes) so too do we sometimes have to just chalk one up.

As much as this guy came upon you out of nowhere, un-announced, I still think there's got to be a shift of his, that can be deduced. If he was in a city truck, then he was no doubt on-hours. And not very likely those guys keep hours outside of 7am to 6pm-ish, or on Sundays at dusk, etc.... Or you might need to "give this one a rest" till the guy forgets the meeting. Or till he moves on in a promotion or retirement, etc....

But yeah, absolute worst case scenario, if he's totally unavoidable, and truly watches like a hawk, and there's simply no other parks you can or want to go to .... then only in that case would you "fight" it. But be prepared, it can backfire and ....... your issue gets passed through various channels, and gets an even further entrenched "no". It's extremely hard to get those type "no's" overturned, because all that busy-body has to say is "he was tearing the place up" (even though it's not true), and guess who they're going to believe?

 

[Elton]

I don't have a problem with what your saying..However...........Sneaking was a term I used for effect.

What I am saying is..we all should not just say............... OK I will not use the park for my hobby... I'm saying we need to defend our rights too. If we show respect, Not doing any damage, or trespassing I feel we should not have to feel like we do not belong in the parks Metal Detecting.

Now you can fancy word it up all you want to. I still say we should not feel like we have to sneak around doing our hobby.. No more, No less Sir. I also am not saying your not correct in some points.
Of course you wouldn't want to act obnoxious when out detecting.. we all should always respect others space... so on ,and so forth..but darn..I want to have my space in that park too..Don't you ??

I'm saying I guess if we just give in, do not ask for our usage of the park...then we will eventually not be allowed in any parks... I'm not trying to argue either for the sake of arguing..I really do believe we have to stand together for the sake of our chosen hobby..

Tom.No I don't think everyone will love my Hobby..... I just want everyone to respect the" My Right" to do that hobby....... As long as I show respect, Not damaging property, no being offensive to others.I expect to be allowed to detect.. without being hassled...

That is all I am saying.... I will also add. No one, me, you, or others should be out tresspassing on private properties metal detecting........ Always have permission !!!!

Thanks for your response Tom........ I guess we could go back and forth over, and over from all kinds of points of views.. I gave mine regarding Parks for the Public.........so I will not post any other responses.. Not being a jerk Sir..Just don't really have anything else to say........ Happy Hunting Everyone....

 

[sgoss66]

Elton and Tom --

I am enjoying reading the back and forth, and I appreciate both perspectives. Elton, I, like you, like to "feel" that I am allowed to be in an area with my detector, and want to have the right to do so. HOWEVER, Tom, I agree that that simply is not always going to be the case, like it or not, as "digging" conjures up bad images. Even if YOU or I are careful, responsible guys with our plugs, OTHERS may NOT be. So, in this "err on the side of 'caution' mentality" in our society, it's easier for a public official to say "NO" rather than "YES."

Interestingly, I DID have success once, at pursuing this. I was hunting at my favorite park, and a lady with the parks dept. came by all upset and said I could NOT "dig holes" in the park. I explained to her that I checked with the police, long ago, and that it was "OK," and that I had thus been hunting the park for a long, long time, with no issues. She told me "the police don't know the rules," and that I could not do any digging in the park. Hmm...

So, I left, but followed up with an email to the director of the Parks department. I told him what happened, and explained that I am a careful detectorist, I leave no trace that I was ever there, and that I only hunt with those who do the same. I explained how hard it is to find good, old spots where folks congregated in the past, and therefore that I'd hate to lose access to this spot. I told him I'd be glad to come by and demonstrate the hobby, and my recovery technique to him; I gave him my home phone, my cell phone, and told him if he ever had any concerns he could contact me, etc. I explained that I was just as concerned with leaving the grounds looking nice as he was, and that I have removed POUNDS of trash from the park while detecting, and obviously have left no damage in my wake in the past (as it had never been a problem before now). I asked if he'd reconsider, and permit me to continue my hobby.

Believe it or not, I got an email back from him, saying that there was a misunderstanding, and that it was fine to detect and recover targets on city park property, as long as no holes were left unfilled and that I was neat/conscientious in doing so. (And, Elton, I no doub feel MUCH better having the official "OK" in this park!)

Having said that, I can see where I was lucky to have dealt with a reasonable Parks director, and that others may not be so. On the same token, I NEVER would have gone to this guy and presented my case (since this is a public park with no clear signs stating detecting is NOT allowed), had I not been told that I could no longer hunt. At that point, I figured it was a last resort.

Bottom line, this is a hard battle to "win," as most folks cringe at the thought of anyone "digging holes," and obviously that's what we have to do, to retrieve targets. So, the deck is often "stacked against us" from the get-go. Thus, when hunting "public" property, I often do it with some discretion. It's one of those cases, to me, that even though I KNOW I'm not doing anything "wrong," I realize that others don't understand that, and so -- since there's a general "bias" AGAINST our hobby -- drawing as little attention to myself as possible is sometimes best. It's not "sneaking;" to me, it's trying not to give anyone any reason to start a battle that I am very unlikely to win.

Just my two cents.

Steve

 

[Critterhunter]

Sure we feel as Americans that we have the right to detect a park that our tax dollars paid for, but we are never going to win any arguments with the public or government. We simply don't have enough members as a group or money to contribute to campaigns that would give us the kind of power to get laws or opinions changed.

That's why the best we can do is in fact sneak. Keep a low profile. Show up at low traffic times. Leave when too many people start showing up. And for God's sake don't carry any kind of shovel or long handled digger onto public land. Keep your digging tool in it's harness, and always take a good look around to see who's watching before digging a hole. When digging keep your back to people or any nearby road that a cop might come cruising by on.

The banning process is going to happen more and more as time goes on. All we can hope to do is to try to slow it down by keeping a low profile, fixing our holes well, and staying as much in the shadows as possible. Asking for permission when none is needed is only going to bring you to the attention of people in government who just love to tell us how to run our lives.

I know the first instinct when somebody b*tches at you in a park is to stand your ground and argue. I know I have a personality like that that nobody should step on my rights I feel I have. But the better choice is probably to just leave and come back to fight another day. Chances are you are never going to see that person again, but if you stand your ground and argue with them there's a good chance they'll call the authorities and complain.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

" I feel we should not have to feel like we do not belong in the parks Metal Detecting." & " I just want everyone to respect the" My Right" to do that hobby...."

You're absolutely right. We all "feel" like that. Nobody likes it when busybodies b*tt in. No argument there. We'd all LOVE to have cessation of those downsides. I'm just saying that unfortunately, that day is not going to come, as long as our hobby has these implicit innate connotations. No amount of defending is going to change those inherent connotations. So just as a hunter doesn't parade his latest trophy kill in front of a PETA member, so too are there certain people that we don't parade in front of either. I wish it wasn't that way, but it is.

 

[Coilfisher]

Sooner or later everyone gets thrown out of a park.

And, sooner or later he will get tired of it of enforcing it as you are not the only one doing it.

I would go to the municpality and ask for a permit. If they cant provide you one then ask if such a program can begin and you would
gladly pay a fee to do so.

Afterall, they do get paid to groundskeep..that is their job.

Detect smart!

 

[biotch]

In NYC you need to apply for a permit and ONLY detect in approved area. Make no mistake, this is very serious.
biotch

 

[xterranomore]

No way I would stop hunting BUT I would just do my best to avoid this guy. Like some of the others said...just go at less obvious times if you can.

 

[chicago mike]

I two have had run ins with park people who think and act like we are the only people who shouldn't be allowed to use the park for anything but looking and walking the following is a story that I will tell you about I was in this park and have been detecting there for years when one day I was approached by a park official were he preceded in telling me that I was to stop what I was doing and leave the park because there was no metal detecting allowed when i showed him all the garbage that I was finding he got really angry and said that if Didn't leave right then that he would call the police now I told him that I had been given permission from the main park office to do what I was doing . He left in a huff and the next thing I know I was approached by the police and they said that they had been called because a park official said that I was in the park and that I had a concealed weapon ( my retrieval knife ) which was in my pouch and is only three inches long they asked me what I was using and I showed them they arrested me and confiscated my detector . I was given a court date but not my detector I had to wait until I went to court and seen the judge and showed him that I had permission from the head park office to do what I was doing did I get my detector back but before I went to court I contacted the person who had given me permission and told him what had happened he called the park and talked to the person that had caused me all the trouble and the park the park official told him that he had done it he was given a suspension and told not to go to court and that he was to refrain from doing that again and if it did happen again that he would be fired . Because you have you have permission make sure that you have it in writing and that you have the name and phone number of he person that gave you the permission in the first place it will be better for you in the long run because they will call and find out .

 

[matthias]

I must admit. One of many reasons I have a second high end detector is because of the possiblity of one being confiscated. The people around where I detect dont seem to care at all. I always have answers running thru my mind as I detect to be prepared for someone to complain. My hunting partner actually worked for the Township I live in and just retired last week. He also grew up here. He knows everyone and everywhere to detect. We have not hit any 'honey holes' yet and we are both serious beginners. I think one of the best things I have done in a crowded playground was to let all the interested kids following me watch and learn what I am doing. I explain the ettiquite and techniques of retreival. Next thing I know I have parents of these kids asking me how to get their kid started, where to get a detector, etc. I take all the time in the world with these people and eagerly explain and demonstrate. I live in a 'small pond' where luckily the 'big fish' have much better things to do than bust me. Ive been lucky so far. I also show off my garbage collection to onlookers and make sure to make a lot of noise throwing it in the steel drum garbage barrels when Im done. I always conduct myself as if I am being watched. I never wear camoflage or anything that would make me look sneaky. I carry a finds/garbage bag and a single digger. I have learned more about this topic right here in this thread and I hope others will too. HH. Matt

 

[dippodigger]

This is a great great thread and the responses are very helpful. Please leave it on this forum if you can Bryce.

 

[Josey Wales]

Wow! Chicago Mike that sounds like a horror story! Can't believe you were arrested. Its crazy how it only takes one person not liking what someone is doing and complain, even though you was granted permission. Like some of the other posters have stated, I think its only going to get worse.

 

[Knipper]

I have to say, with respect for the opinions of those who think otherwise, that giving in to individuals like that "park ranger" is not a good idea. Many have stated that placating such people is the right way to go, but I just think that errodes our right to this hobby even more. Giving in without comment just makes us look weak, and once some individuals taste that, they get even bolder and more demanding. Giving ground (pun intended!) didn't work during WW2, and I don't think its the proper strategy here, either. Now, I'm not saying you have to roll up your sleeves and duke it out with anyone, but before bowing your head and heading back to the car, I would at LEAST say something like, "well I've informed you I have permission, I'm not doing any more damage than would result from say, a soccer game on this ground, and I'm leaving this park cleaner than it was when I arrived. I'm sorry you don't seem to like my hobby, but I have every right to be here, so I'm respectfully declining to leave. Please do not harrass me any further about this."

All that can be said in a calm but assertive tone, looking the jerk right in the eye. Naturally, if it escalates, you have to adapt. All I'm saying is, we shouldn't have to apologize for our hobby, if we're doing it correctly, and we should be free to enjoy ourselves. Bryce has a great signature on his posts attesting to how much this hobby means to him. What if all that goes away just because no one took a stand? That we might lose this hobby has always been a possibility. But to lose it without even putting up a fight to me is unthinkable!

Knipper

 

[Josey Wales]

Great post Knipper!

 

[Critterhunter]

Confrontation or standing your ground almost never works for situations like this. All it does it get people more p*ssed off and spurs them to call the authorities and complain. Much better to just say "OK, I'm leaving so you don't become upset" without trying to explain your rights or anything, and leave and come back another day, as chances are you'll never see that person again.

Even if you have the right to be there and there are no laws banning detecting in a park, chances are if the cops or a ranger are called they will kick you out to relieve the situation. If they let you stay and something happened (say a fight with the complainer or somebody trips over one of your plugs) then it's their *ss on the line. That's why they'd rather make you leave then let the situation be unresolved, not to mention that they don't want the same person calling an hour later and asking why they haven't taken care of the situation. Looks bad to their supervisors that they are having to go back to a place twice.

If you ever watch these cop shows when they are called out to a disturbance at a house, they ALWAYS make one party leave for the night even if it hasn't escalted into violence yet and was just yelling and screaming. Same reason...If somebody gets hurt later on they could have a lawsuit on their hands for not resolving the situation in the first place. People sue over everything these days.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Critterhunter, I find it interesting that you say " .... chances are you'll never see that person again ..." I have found this to be true in a lot of cases. Especially big cities, where the odds of running into that same barney again is remote. So I agree with you: sometimes you just give lip service, wait a month or two .... and just come back at a different "shift", and avoid "just that one person" in the future. I mean, heck, why kick a hornet's nest afterall? Sure this may not be possible in a one-horse town where the complainer lives right there across the street, and spends her/his every waking hour sitting on the porch..... but for bigger cities with multiple parks, for pete's sakes, just rationalize which day they maintain that particular park, and don't be there @ that shift, in the future.

An analogy would be this: if there's a particular grumpy park user, who goes to the park every day at 3pm, and mouths off to anyone around him, acts like he owns the swing sets, etc... And let's say that one day, you want to take your grandkid to the park, to use the swings. Do you go at 3pm, or do you wisely choose another time of day to go?? Of COURSE you stay clear of the park grump, and go either before, or after his expected time there, right? Now I suppose you could "fight for your rights, and argue with the trouble-maker, all the way down to city hall, if you wanted to. You could start a petition to "get a permit" for you and your kid to use the park, if you wanted. You could argue semantics with the trouble maker that *he* is the one out of line, etc... blah blah.... Or, you can just steer clear of him, in the future. Is that being "sneaky"? Perhaps. But we ALL do it. I mean, heck, if you are a hunter, and you are coming in with your latest kill, do you parade it in front of a PETA member? No, of course not. So why "parade" your hobby in front of anyone who will differ with you on opinions that revolve around this hobby?

 

[Josey Wales]

Tom in CA, I understand and agree partially with your last post. But in my instance, I was hunting in a one horse town kind of park on a Sunday morning with hardly anyone around, except for a couple of joggers, when this joker pulls up in his van and starts his rant, he wasn't even working, he had his wife in the van with him! So I definitely wasn't parading around anyone. I think probably every situation has its own unique way of resolving the problem. It should have been handled allot different by this certain individual, but your gonna have that, you can't fix stupid as they say!

 

[Critterhunter]

It's funny you should mention the hunting thing. A few years back I harvested a nice buck with my crossbow. At the time my truck was broken down and so I borrowed my sister's small car. There was no way I was getting that big buck in the trunk, so I ended up tying it to the hood of her car. The closest butcher who does wild game to me was in Cleveland (I live in the suburbs about 15 miles south of Cleveland). He wasn't located right in the heart of downtown, but in a busy suburb of Cleveland's outskirts. I had to drive through a bad neighborhood to get there, and you should have seen the looks from the gang members playing basketball in the local park as I drove to the location. It was priceless! Not to mention the looks from people driving along beside me on the roads.

Now, did I want to parade that deer around on the hood of a car and offend people? No, but I simply had no choice. I wasn't going to leave that deer to rot in the woods because I couldn't fit it in the trunk of the car. Would I do it again? No, not around here. In the country it's nothing to see a deer on the hood of a car, but I live too close to Cleveland where a lot of people think hunting is a cruel sport with no other value than killing something.

If they only knew the heritage, the joys of being one with nature, and the friendships that develop in hunting, not to mention the rewards of filling the freezer with cheap meat. It's the same thing with metal detecting. Outsiders could never understand the whole concept of it. That it's not just about the finds, but about being outside in nature, learning history, sharing stories, and finding new friends. A few of my closet friends these days are guys I met on the net to metal detect with years ago. Couldn't imagine life without them.

I think that's the biggest problem some in our hobby have. When a detectorist doesn't see a problem with bringing shovels or long handled diggers onto public land and parks. They don't think outside the box of their small universe of metal detecting, and think what they are doing is perfectly natural. While it may be to us, it isn't to those on the outside looking in. They see us digging in a park and don't see any of the joy, thrill, history, or other factors that we see in this great hobby. They only see somebody with a strange machine digging a hole in their park and it angers them, especially if we are walking around with a long handled digger or a shovel. We have to keep that in mind and keep a low profile as much as we can, and that includes using a regular digger that can be kept in a harness on our belt. Even carrying one around in your hand all the time can look intimidating to people.

I was just at a park today where I noticed a police car sitting in one of the park parking lots nearby. It was obvious he was watching for speeders, but I wasn't going to risk giving him any kind of view of me getting down and digging holes. So I moved off into the nearby woods at the edge of the park and hunted there until I saw that he was gone. Why take the risk?