New to the V3 a few questions....correlate

[DollarDigger]

What is an example of a situation that a person would use correlate as opposed to Best Data???? I see in the manual the factory settings only use correlate in the "High trash" program but with such a fast RD of 40 seems you will miss a lot of good targets with this setting????? thanks DDigger

 

[burlbark]

I have found a rd of 40 to be sufficient to recover quarters at 10". Correlate certainly helps in trashy areas, and then limiting span can even take it a step farther till you only hear coins and non ferrous objects 99% of the time. You may however miss coins on edge and deep mixed signals caused by partial iron masking. Take a 5 gallon plastic bucket and turn it upside down. Put your coin or purposed target down on the bucket and then try to hide the signal with a nail. I was shocked at how well the v3i does with this even with really strong discrimination settings.

 

[Southwind]

I tried Correlate this weekend at the park and didn't care for the results. Pretty much every signal ended up as a lower reading in the 30's and many I knew were good high targets. The park has a lot of iron trash that seemed to drive the numbers well below what I get in Best Data.

 

[earthmansurfer]

I agree with the previous two posters regarding correlate results not being great. I ran it with a large (45) span and every signal in tests as well as the field were worse. I know people run it and have success, but I would bet that they would pick up the target in best data anyway. More testing needs to be put up here, you hear very little about it. If anyone does do testing it is absolutely important to switch to best data and see how the signal is. BTW - I heard the DFX was always running in correlate (non adjustable).

Clearly it is designed to be run around iron and I think it will do what it is meant to but you got to test it for your conditions. I don't think it is meant at all to be run in regular non ferrous trash, just iron trash. I'm pretty sure the manual says as much. In my conditions (being in Germany) it would cause me to miss the small thin hammered coins almost every time and in my test garden I lost a 9" nickel running it, but best data picked it up. I even opened the span all the way up (and off) and it still didn't work.

I think the type of iron one encounters also will affect how good or badly correlate works. Even though it hasn't worked well for us that have posted thus far, I'm sure under the proper iron conditions it will be better than best data. But what are those conditions? Small iron, nails, large iron, etc? My guess is more nails and iron that is not decomposing as I haven't found it to work in everything but haven't tested nails.

I think settings like correlate, BCR (bottle cap reject) and hot rock reject can help when there are just so many targets and lots of iron, but if you can let your ears do the discriminating you might be better off, though will dig more trash.

 

[kyledfx]

the vx3 runs correlate, dfx runs both.

 

[Rob (IL)]

VX3 runs correlate in 3 frequency modes.

Primarily developed for rejecting difficult iron, Correlate has an advantage over Best Data in difficult ground and target corrosion applications. It also seems to quiet down some EMI situations.

Cybersage uses correlate most of the time and makes deep finds. He will be along.

 

[TIM CLARK]

I am running the HI-PRO program and I run it in correlate and it makes it very quiet with the RX at 12.

 

[Larry (IL)]

The Hi Trash is a very good example of when to use it. I flip it on when the ground gets noisy and I'm not in the mood to listen to it, Correlate is a sanity saver for me. I notice a small loss of depth although it would be hard to put a number to it but it is seldom that depth is a major concern to me.

 

[DollarDigger]

thanks for all the comments guys. DDigger

 

[CyberSage]

Well, where do I start? I have been a fan of the Correlate mode since we first saw it with the introduction of the White's DFX. I used a program I developed over time in the field in combination with the Super12 coil. Here is a link to a PDF file with notes and the program if anyone is interested...

http://home.comcast.net/~whitesdfx/Super12.pdf

The above answers concerning bad iron infested ground are accurate and good advice to follow. My soil is moderate and I spend most of my time in old parks. It seems like the more nasty the hunting condition, the better I do at finding those keepers. However that being said I have pulled some very deep finds, especially in the last year. Just a few weeks ago I found an old Wheat at 11 inches. I think that was my deepest coin to date. It was a clean hit with no nearby trash. My settings are based on adjustments in the field, and testing in an old coin garden I buried years ago. I am pretty happy with my current program, and I am working on an article with settings and instruction on use, and technique. I am long winded, so it may take awhile.

Jack

 

[Larry (IL)]

That program doesn't do us any good Jack........

 

[Southwind]

Here is the problems I ran into this weekend.

I found a target I was sure would be a deep(roughly 8") coin and did a lot of testing on it. I tried the 12" coil and it pretty much didn't even see the coin while the stock D2 hit it good and hard from all directions.

I also tested Correlate and my numbers all dropped down in the 30's even on coins. It seemed like everything was reading a 34 to 39. This park is very trashy and iron infected.

 

[earthmansurfer]

I also tested Correlate and my numbers all dropped down in the 30's even on coins. It seemed like everything was reading a 34 to 39. This park is very trashy and iron infected.

This is basically what happened to me as well. I couldn't detect the coin with my span at 45 to the highest settings, or even off.

What was your span and wrap at?
What level (low, med, high) and type (iron, none, conductive - VDI # from ground tracking+zoom) of ground mineralization do you have?
Is the iron in the form of flakes (ID's up), solid (ID's down) - small, medium, large, etc.
Is the iron very decomposed/rusty?

I'd like to see how CyberSage and others who have had success with Correlate would answer these questions as maybe we can find out why Correlate is working great for some and not others. Also have Correlate users tried switching to best data from Correlate once you have a target and then, how is the signal?

 

[Southwind]

What was your span and wrap at? Not sure as I just took the stock program, both Coin and HI PRO, and just turned on Correlate.
What level (low, med, high) and type (iron, none, conductive - VDI # from ground tracking+zoom) of ground mineralization do you have? I'll have to check this out.
Is the iron in the form of flakes (ID's up), solid (ID's down) - small, medium, large, etc. The iron in this park is in the form of mostly nails and bigger chunks of iron.
Is the iron very decomposed/rusty? Yes, it has been there many years.
Also have Correlate users tried switching to best data from Correlate once you have a target and then, how is the signal? When I switched to Correlate after getting a good target the signal then got pretty much unidentifiable. Most every signal then would read a VDI in the 30's no matter what.

Just a note: I tried using the TTF(two tone ferrous) setting many boast about on the E-Trac and found it to be like the Correlate on the V3i. Pretty much useless in this park.

 

[CyberSage]

That program doesn't do us any good Jack........

Yes, I am aware that one is not for the V3/V3i. As I stated, The link was provided for those interested. Sorry that was so confusing for you. I was just sharing the origins of my interest in the Correlate mode. My current revision for the V3/V3i is not posted yet as I am still authoring an article with not only the programs settings, but technique and field notes. Once again I apologize for any confusion.

Jack

 

[Larry (IL)]

I wasn't confused Jack, there are few who knows the DFX better than I. The hint was DFX programs belong on the DFX forum.

 

[CyberSage]

This is basically what happened to me as well. I couldn't detect the coin with my span at 45 to the highest settings, or even off...

What was your span and wrap at?

My current Span setting is set at 45
My current Wrap setting is at -94

What level (low, med, high) and type (iron, none, conductive - VDI # from ground tracking+zoom) of ground mineralization do you have?

My soil is moderate in mineralization strength. I have never checked the ground tracking+zoom. I will check it out.

Is the iron in the form of flakes (ID's up), solid (ID's down) - small, medium, large, etc.

Not sure about this because I don't dig iron signals to often. Generally it is the rusty corroding tips from square nails, regular nails, and pieces of wire that are problematic and have tendency to wrap to the positive side. The occasion blob of iron and bolt also have this effect.

Is the iron very decomposed/rusty?

In my experience it has to do with the rusty halo off the tip of the above mentioned items.

...I'd like to see how CyberSage and others who have had success with Correlate would answer these questions as maybe we can find out why Correlate is working great for some and not others. Also have Correlate users tried switching to best data from Correlate once you have a target and then, how is the signal?

I have spent a lot of time testing in the field and coin Garden. Most of the time the Best Data does just fine with the same target with the exception being coins that have been in close proximity to other items. I just could not get the response consistent in some of these situations. It could be my extremely slow recovery time settings, not sure. I should also mention the tonal quality of the target was not as pronounced in the Best Data mode. It seemed shorter without the rolling decay. The VDI readings seemed more accurate in Best Data however, while it was slightly elevated in the Correlate mode.

This final question is one that you may not want to hear the answer to. Why do some detectorist do well with Correlate and others don't? (and this goes for whatever mode your hunting in, not just Correlate) All I can say is on several occasions I have located a good target and called fellow hunters over to have them test there machine over it. I have even handed them my detector and had them swing to no avail. They just couldn't see the target. Having the same detector and same program does not automatically mean you will be as good as the next guy at pulling targets. The cadence and stability of your swing is everything when dealing with deep or partially masked targets. Keeping that coil just brushing the grass lightly while not banging it around is important as well. Practicing over a deep coin will get you there. I am still not there, probably never will be, but the finds are getting more frequent so I am happy.

Jack

 

[earthmansurfer]

Jack - Thanks for that reply. What stood out most to me was your high recovery delay and medium mineralization - and to be honest, my lack of experience . Just for comparisons sake - I run my recovery delay at 42 to 50 with the stock coil (too much iron I think to run it higher, as well as very small coins), my span was mostly tested at 45 with a -94 wrap, Rx @ 10-12, Disc @ 90 to 95, Ground VDI at -91 and 1%-3% mineralization.

What also stands out is that you are sometimes getting BETTER signals with correlate than best data. I have never experienced that in testing. Outside of your last point regarding experience which I mention below, I wonder what I (and others) could be doing that makes the target in correlate hardly or not even beep. I'll have to keep in mind my GB is sometimes not right on, I've had big problems GB'ing due to crazy iron, not to mention pinpointing is sometimes not possible due to the proximity of iron to the target (it's all over).

I'm pretty new with the V3i and have detected for only 3 or 4 years if I take out the breaks, so your last point is well taken (and I don't mind hearing it!). Clearly an expert hunter makes the difference as well as having a great coin garden, which I don't. That said, I'm not a beginner but also not experienced enough with the V3i to expect CyberSage, Robert, Larry, etc. results .

So, outside of the experience, I wonder if the recovery delay and ground mineralization are playing a big role here. I'd like to see others answers here as maybe we can find what the issue is. Hey, maybe correlate will work for the experienced hunters only or maybe we can find that correlate is strongly connected to a setting or two that should be focused on. If it's the former then I'll keep at it!

If you remember any of your findings that you think might aid here, it would be nice to hear them.

Thanks again,
EMS

 

[CyberSage]

I wonder if the recovery delay and ground mineralization are playing a big role here.

I think it has a lot to do with it. There are several settings that work hand in hand in this area. Filter settings, Recovery Delay, and your physical swing speed are what I consider the keys to getting down deep. I use a 5.0 Hz Band Pass, and a 5.0 Hz High in low EMI environments. My current Recovery Delay is set to 105. My physical swing speed is very slow and rhythmic with a swing arc of no more than 2.5 to 3 feet. I can tell you that switching the filter settings up to 10.0 Hz or higher causes deeper targets to disappear completely in my hunting environment irregardless of swing speed. If your using higher filters to deal with increased mineralization strengths or faster swing speed, then you just are not going to get as deep in my opinion. I pull a lot of coins from digs that contain multiple targets, so I don't see the slow Recovery as being an issue with finding these types of targets. When I find a keeper in a heavily hunted park I am always trying to figure out why the last guy missed it. I think masking is the number one cause, followed closely by depth.

I shot this video a couple of weeks ago in a old park near my house. I usually don't try to film the V3 screen before I dig, but I like Neil's idea of showing the coil movement during the hit. I hand held the camera to include the screen and the coil in the shot. It's raw footage, but it's not to bad for example use. This turned out to be a Rosie Dime at 8 inches. The splatter turned out to be a small bit of rusty wire to one side of the Dime and a couple inches shallower. This hillside area has seen some grade work done. This would explain the unusual depth for a Rosie coin. I found 3 Rosie's this particular hunt. This is just the pre-dig segment of the video...

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQJO3YXwbok[/video]

 

[burlbark]

I was down at the beach today and found that I gain 2" of depth running best data, with my super 12, when compared to running correlate, !2"+ on a dime compared to 10-10.5". However the amount of falsing that I got while having the detector cranked to the max while in best data is not worth the additional noise. However there is certainly a time to use it and I have a couple locations I will, where the targets are old and possibly high value. I can put up with the noise if it means seated or barbers....