Anyone here have any knowledge of metal detecting regulations for public beach acess points on TVA facilities? I went to the site for TVA and there is a statement that metal detecting in prohibited on TVA managed public lands. It reference the regs but you can't seem to find them on their web site. I'm asking specfically about recreational metal detecting as it applies to public beach acess points on their managed reserviours.
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Metal detecting on TVA operated public beach acess points?
- Thread starter Grunter
- Start date
I've read some posts from the other brothers here that say the TVA controlled property is strictly off limits to us...that said, I've personally hunted some TVA beach areas (in the winter when theres nobody around) without issue..I noticed that evidently they were being picked clean by some plucky local, who either knew the rules or just went and did it anyway...it was not like there was a pile of loot to be had, and possibly not worth the risk...you know if you ask you will get a 'NO'...so I would go ahead and hunt a TVA place if you have one scoped out you think may pay off...I still believe the 'unofficial' swimming locations on creeks feeding the main rivers may hold some treasure, and I will take a stab at them as the situation merits..you know, like bridge jump off points and drinking areas near a town along the drainage where the kids go to cool off....I doubt most TVA agents would give you a hard time, I know a few of them and they are primarily concerned with other duties than busting the chops of some old guy with a detector looking for pennies..still, I would not want to ask or be seen..somebody will be along shortly with the accurate info you desire, but I'm not sure about the details or specifics, they seem so vague that I have never asked...I can say I've tried it, parked and pulled on my waders and went right in with no problems....It is evident that somebody else hunts those TVA beach places regardless of the rules...they were picked clean..
Mud
Mud
Thanks for the info. Mudpuppy. I hunted a TVA lake that was a state park. The park manager gave me permission. I didn't find squat. One problem I had was that the bottom was clay rock and my scoop wouldn't capture anything. I use a Stealth scoop and it would roll at about 2" deep. I was considering some places on the South Holstein.
Go and ask and tell them you would like to hunt the swimming areas, camping areas that are unoccupied, and around the boat ramps. The older security people remember when MD permits were issued. Digging for Indian Artifacts in other areas was the problem. Now they can't say yes but may tell you to have a nice day. I have never had any problems but I know a lot of the security having worked for TVA for years. HH 
hershey1 said:
Ya know, this all sounds a bit .... uh ... "arbitrary" and "whimsical". The advice to go ask the attendant on duty at whatever TVA beach you happen to be at (the nearest pencil-pusher desk-jockey). If, .... as you say ... you've gotten "Yes's" at some (or as you say, not-had any problems), then THIS ALONE tells me there's no blanket rule . Or at least, in-so-far as there *might* be something in the minutia (if you asked and looked long enough and hard enough), it's only for perhaps land sites, and obvious historic sensitive stuff (eg.: indian stuff, etc....). But not modern beach stuff, eh ?
And if someone ELSE at ANOTHER of those beaches (or someone else at the same desk on day #2) said "no", then ... to me ... this just REEKS of arbitrary whimsical mood based russian roullette. And NOT some blanket policy or rule.
So if you ask me, I'd just frickin go. If someone asks, I'm looking for my wedding ring. AND FOR PETE'S SAKE: you can't find pre-european indian stuff anyhow. They had no refined metals. So I don't know why any md'r would make it so difficult on themselves. Grow a set and just go.
Tom_in_CA said:
TVA specifically prohibits all metal detecting on land and water that they control. They HAVE taken detectors and charged people in FEDERAL (see Office Space reference here) Court as recent as last year that I know of. Outcome was fines and loss of detector(s). I was told they lost their vehicle too, but I didn't get that from a confirmed source. I don't like it any more than anyone and hope TVA dies a quick death and they ALL lose their jobs and pensions. The guise under which they came up with this bs is that people were using metal detectors as a sham while they eyeballed for indian relics (which they seem to have a hard-on for some reason. maybe it has something to do with all the sacred grounds they flooded/destroyed- see Chota and Tanasi).
All that said, permission from a local park manager is often forthcoming if you ask. I usually agree with those that say don't stir it up if its in the gray area, but TVA is completely clear that MDing is verboten. I know a couple of former TVA cops and they tell me that while they never have taken one personally, they have been instructed to do so. And they don't care if you don't know the rules, so playing dumb probably wont work. They are arrogant aHats and know they are above all us regular peons. Typical gov.bs.
eta: make no mistake that TVA cops are 'real cops'. they are sworn officers with the same authority as local police and deputies.
Maybe they think you are going to find the treasure that George Clooney was looking for in O'Brother Where Art Thou. We peons don't have a right to search for Indian relics that is the Holy Grail and absolute domain of the Archaeologist and their minions in Academia. They find usually because some peon found a relic and turned it over to them. They get their hands dirty,write a paper,catalog the finds,bury them in some museum never to see the light of day again,graduate and get some other kind of job. Makes me think that the old adage History is dead and buried is right on the money. Oh Well!!! I quess everybody has to have their territory were they can play all powerful. Us poor old MDs just want to have a little recreational fun to keep our bods limbered up and active. We want to enjoy the outdoors,water as much as the next person. I've seen many instances where a so called protected site is graded down,dregged out,torn down, and then paved over,restructured to put up a more asthetic and economically viable alternative without any regards for what may lie just below their feet. I don't want any Indian relics,I just want metal trinkets that have been lost and may never be seen again until my detector discovers them. I want to share these trinkets with my grandchildren and the stories behind them. First hand knowlege that hasn't been filtered thru Academia. Sorry for the rant now I'll get back to my beloved recreational pursuit and the happiness it brings me and countless others.
Kin, see if you see the problem in your statements here:
but then you say:
Hmmm, then how is it "completely verboten" ? SURELY a low-level kiosk person or on-site personell can't "allow" you or I to break laws, can they ? Eg.: what if you asked them : "hi, can I please shoplift from the camp store please?". Naturally they have no authority to allow you to break laws. So they'd have to tell you "no" to that. What then makes THIS particular thing different, where they can actually say "sure, go ahead" ?
KinTN said:
but then you say:
KinTN said:
Hmmm, then how is it "completely verboten" ? SURELY a low-level kiosk person or on-site personell can't "allow" you or I to break laws, can they ? Eg.: what if you asked them : "hi, can I please shoplift from the camp store please?". Naturally they have no authority to allow you to break laws. So they'd have to tell you "no" to that. What then makes THIS particular thing different, where they can actually say "sure, go ahead" ?
The only 'trouble' I ever had with the TVA is the boat cops...What a job! Cruising around on the water all day long in a sweet rig with nothing to do..and getting paid for it! I think their purpose was to be on the lookout for drunk operators or something, but they were never out when they needed to be, you know, really bad weather or late at night when somebody may be in trouble...They would bust my clanks continuously though, pull me over and check all my safety gear etc...once tried to give me a ticket for running my rig standing up with an extended tiller...I gently argued my way out of it, even though it is a written rule, but the crabbers on the Gulf run standing up with extended tillers all the time...I was a magnet for them since I build my own boats and they stick out like a sore thumb amidst the jet skis and store bought boats...I had to call them and get a 'hull ID number' from them on every boat I built before I could get it registered...I pulled a lot of people off Guntersville Lake when the weather would come up foul and catch them out there...I would see those big tornados coming in, snuggle myself up against the west cliffs, and glass the lake looking for somebody in trouble when that wind hit...I was out all hours day or night, and sort of got to know their schedule, which was typically 9-5...I doubt anybody would mess with an adult Man not hurting anybody or anything within reason...I was out there constantly just picking up trash for the hell of it...after a while, they got to know me and settled down a bit, I even volunteered my big boat to help do a 10k cypress seedling tree plant on the islands for erosion control one weekend....all of which were quickly pulled out and gobbled up by the resident beaver...Then, I got the job for trapping the beaver which was bass akwards but paid...swing away and look right....just saying 'laws' are often arbitrarily imposed by the in field enforcers, Nobody is gonna hassle a grown up man within reason..
Mud
ps...relationships are important in any small town...have a few well respected names to drop in general conversation with authorities...'trust through transference' is what Marketing people call it...
Mud
ps...relationships are important in any small town...have a few well respected names to drop in general conversation with authorities...'trust through transference' is what Marketing people call it...
Tom, do you really think 1 hand of the goobermint knows what the other is doing? To simplify it for you, what I am talking about are 2 things:
1) the official state of the law/rules that will see your detector taken and fines imposed. that's the way it is. period. call TVA hq and they will be happy to piss in your soup(been there done that). that's the way those aHats are. and if you decide to md on "TVA property", you are at risk. let each person decide for himself, but i think it is the height of irresponsibility to encourage people to risk it if you don't do it yourself. TVA does enforce this, tho admittedly their enforcement resources cant be everywhere all the time. if it makes it easier to comprehend, think of this as what the "suits" or office workers believe the world to be like.
2) as in all thing in the Real World, human kindness and common sense can come into play. granted, its conceivable that you may still get charged (doubtful imo) even if you have a local superintendent's permission, but things haven't gone so far to hell that a officer/judge's common sense that he wouldnt let you go with a warning when the top park superintendent just told you it was ok. I've been there, done that too. but in each case it was the highest official in charge of the park I wished to detect at. going in face to face treating people like youd like to be treated actually works when asking for permission. just like cold calling homeowners- an attitude wont get you what you want. being an asshole to people rarely pays off in the long run.
1) the official state of the law/rules that will see your detector taken and fines imposed. that's the way it is. period. call TVA hq and they will be happy to piss in your soup(been there done that). that's the way those aHats are. and if you decide to md on "TVA property", you are at risk. let each person decide for himself, but i think it is the height of irresponsibility to encourage people to risk it if you don't do it yourself. TVA does enforce this, tho admittedly their enforcement resources cant be everywhere all the time. if it makes it easier to comprehend, think of this as what the "suits" or office workers believe the world to be like.
2) as in all thing in the Real World, human kindness and common sense can come into play. granted, its conceivable that you may still get charged (doubtful imo) even if you have a local superintendent's permission, but things haven't gone so far to hell that a officer/judge's common sense that he wouldnt let you go with a warning when the top park superintendent just told you it was ok. I've been there, done that too. but in each case it was the highest official in charge of the park I wished to detect at. going in face to face treating people like youd like to be treated actually works when asking for permission. just like cold calling homeowners- an attitude wont get you what you want. being an asshole to people rarely pays off in the long run.
ok, sure. I'm sure there laws about spitting on sidewalks in NY city too. So I'll grant you that. But my question remains then: Why then have others on TVA beaches "gotten permission" ? SURELY no one in authority can "grant you 'permission', to break laws", now can they ? 
So all I'm saying is, that it almost makes you wonder if there's sort of different categories of ........ these things you/we call "laws".
Also you have to wonder how a link such as yours, to an actual written "law" got implemented, IN THE FIRST PLACE ! In other words, what do you think prompted someone(s) in the bureaucracy to say to themselves: "Gee, let's make a law about this" ? I know the knee-jerk answer will probably be "cultural heritage" issues, right? To which we say to ourselves "durned those archies". Or the other knee-jerk reaction answer will be "holes". To which we say to ourselves "durned those guys who must've left holes". Right? (but go figure, we're talking BEACH SAND here, so .... can/could it really be 'holes' ?).
But no, neither of those two "go-to" answers is probably really the reason for this wonderful rule you've sleuthed up. Care to guess what the real answer likely is ??
So all I'm saying is, that it almost makes you wonder if there's sort of different categories of ........ these things you/we call "laws".Also you have to wonder how a link such as yours, to an actual written "law" got implemented, IN THE FIRST PLACE ! In other words, what do you think prompted someone(s) in the bureaucracy to say to themselves: "Gee, let's make a law about this" ? I know the knee-jerk answer will probably be "cultural heritage" issues, right? To which we say to ourselves "durned those archies". Or the other knee-jerk reaction answer will be "holes". To which we say to ourselves "durned those guys who must've left holes". Right? (but go figure, we're talking BEACH SAND here, so .... can/could it really be 'holes' ?).
But no, neither of those two "go-to" answers is probably really the reason for this wonderful rule you've sleuthed up. Care to guess what the real answer likely is ??
Ha, interesting. Ok, let's assume this is true (sounds logical enough afterall). But guess what the quickest way would be, to go get an answer that this does indeed apply to sandy beaches, and not just land or historical sites? Here's the secret recipe: Just go ask enough desk-bound bureaucrats and archies there: "Does this apply to innocuous sandy beaches too?".
Then the "pressing question" will get passed back and forth between multiple desks for review, vote, etc... Guess what the answer will be? It will be: "yes it applies". BUT NO PROBLEM! We can all sit back and pat ourselves on the back. Because, afterall, it "doesn't hurt to ask" now does it? And "you can't be too safe", now can you? Meanwhile all the old-timers who used to detect there and never had a problem , are left scratching their heads saying to themselves "since when?"
See how that works ?
Then the "pressing question" will get passed back and forth between multiple desks for review, vote, etc... Guess what the answer will be? It will be: "yes it applies". BUT NO PROBLEM! We can all sit back and pat ourselves on the back. Because, afterall, it "doesn't hurt to ask" now does it? And "you can't be too safe", now can you? Meanwhile all the old-timers who used to detect there and never had a problem , are left scratching their heads saying to themselves "since when?"
See how that works ?Hey Mr West Coast. Apparantly you didn't read too closely about how it works. Go back and try again.
I live here in TVAland and I know many of these people. I know how it works and I find it reprehensible that you encourage people to break TVA rules/federal law and put them at risk of confiscation and federal court. Your posting logic is just like all those jailhouse lawyers that 'know' how to beat the system. yeah, and that's why theyre still in jail. There are probably even terms of use at this site about encouraging people to break the law and such. Disgusting. If you don't like a law, work to change it. (That's what many of us are doing here.) Trying to sucker others into getting in trouble while you snicker behind your keyboard is......well, terms of service stop me here.
This has nothing to do with asking 'if'. The prohibition is there and is well known. Attempted misdirection of the issue doesn't do your argument any good. This isn't a case where your crusade applies. And it doesn't have to make sense- its the goobermint.
Come on over and visit us with your most expensive detector. I'll be happy to show you some great prohibited spots and we'll see how big that talk is about detecting where TVA says you cant. Or if you aren't up to that, just call TVA and ask them. You wont hurt any of us by doing that. The published prohibition is already in place. I guess they call the west coast 'dreamland' or 'lala land' for a reason.
I live here in TVAland and I know many of these people. I know how it works and I find it reprehensible that you encourage people to break TVA rules/federal law and put them at risk of confiscation and federal court. Your posting logic is just like all those jailhouse lawyers that 'know' how to beat the system. yeah, and that's why theyre still in jail. There are probably even terms of use at this site about encouraging people to break the law and such. Disgusting. If you don't like a law, work to change it. (That's what many of us are doing here.) Trying to sucker others into getting in trouble while you snicker behind your keyboard is......well, terms of service stop me here.
This has nothing to do with asking 'if'. The prohibition is there and is well known. Attempted misdirection of the issue doesn't do your argument any good. This isn't a case where your crusade applies. And it doesn't have to make sense- its the goobermint.
Come on over and visit us with your most expensive detector. I'll be happy to show you some great prohibited spots and we'll see how big that talk is about detecting where TVA says you cant. Or if you aren't up to that, just call TVA and ask them. You wont hurt any of us by doing that. The published prohibition is already in place. I guess they call the west coast 'dreamland' or 'lala land' for a reason.
I know Ken. I've even had some minor problems with some areas that allow special use permits. Some say no water more than knee deep(maybe to a 10' Indian) Others specify sand only with the explanation that it only means sandy man-made beach areas,no horseshoe pits,no volleyball courts.no tot lots and the list goes on. Who can define man-made? Also had some caprcious and arbitrary times specfied when one can hunt. Same application,same fees arbitrary definition of the terms. It stinks that the powers to be don't recognize metal detecting as a legtimate recreational hobby enjoyed by all ages.Alot of history and associated relics will never be found until the powers to be realize the facts. Alot of history,alot of oppotunties for young minds to have first hand stories from parents,grandparents will be paved over,restrctured,found but relegated to archived museums,archie departments,to not see the light of day for more decades if ever. Oh! Well so much for my rant,enjoy the hobby,excercise,discovery and sharing until its all regulated away.
Just curious KinTN, do you know of any examples of "tickets" , "confiscations", "jail", "fines", etc... for md'ing TVA beaches? Because as you read elsewhere on this thread, others have detected no problems. Although I suppose it could be argued they "just didn't get caught", eh ? But I also notice that some have "gotten permission". Although I suppose it could be argued that whomever ranger or park-worker simply didn't know any better, and didn't have that authority to grant that permission. eh ?