long range metal detectors

[John(Tx)]

and holding them lightly in your hands, walk over a large iron table and the rods will cross, I've done this myself. The long range kind for sale, now those I just don't believe they work, just like using a plumb bob on a map, hogwash.....

 

[tabdog]

n/t

 

[Shambler]

The question was about long range detectors ... like these: http://www.kellycodetectors.com/allbyprice/1000-up-longrange.htm

No mention of RF or IR detection until I said it. I like when someone said "there's no science behind it". That's the new, more acceptable way of saying "it's the devil's work". It's the practicality that stinks not the science. I find it funny that its accepted to interpret RF disturbance 8" into the ground but the possibility of reading the same variations for longer distances is dismissed -- not questioned, but totally dismissed with associated emoticons placed to imply smugness.

Including dowsing in the discussion is like correlating acupuncture with exorcisms.

 

[Adrian SS]

If you read the fine print in regards to these items you will find a little bit that indicates that a certain amount of operator compatibility is required in order to get these items to work? Proving you do not have the psychic power to make these things work is as hard as it is to prove you do. So how can you sue someone for fraud in regards to these pieces of crap when all the seller has to say is that a particular person is incompatible with the detector in question.
I imagine that a buyer could get a refund upon proof of incompatibility.??

Cheers,
Adrian SS

 

[on-edge]

shambler that was just my bit on skeptisism,i wasn't trying to compare the two
sorry if i messed things up!

i'm sure that these LRL do work as far as functionalability,and that their is a science behind them,
at doing what i'm not so sure of?

and i really wasn't trying to be smug with those little smileys,though it is not unlike me to try to be a little humorous at times
i really meant no harm,and did not mean to insult your seriousness KO

 

[rotceted]

I beg to differ as to the downsing rods i have been able to prove by trial and I will absolutely put my money where my mouth is as far as electrical only water well no although i did locate an old well right on the money that was in an old field area only knowing that it was in that fiels and I have to say I was dead on maybe lucky ?? but as far as electrical yes why i dont know im not into the witchcraft or... and I think its strange myself but again I know it works and would absolutely be able to prove as I have several times as to location yes I had started in a general area but the are big enough that you still need to be right on no different in metal detecting certain areas where you have an idea of where something may be anyway nuff of that Im sitting in the house here in mn freezing my #@!# off waiting for my new metal detector to arrive so the snow can hurry and melt ha ha have a great day

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Adrian SS, you say: "Proving you do not have the psychic power to make these things work is as hard as it is to prove you do." You are using the term "psychic power" for their own term of "operator compatibility". I would agree with you on this definition. If you press them for what "operator compatibility" means, it really does come down to some sort of "inborn gift" or "mental power" or some other such nebulous "faith-based" mystical thing. What else can you call it?

The minute someone tries to sue, they've got their ace-in-the-hole that "obviously the user didn't have the 'gift' or whatever they want to call it.

I had long debates with the LRL crowd on their forums over this circular "get out of jail free" card logic. When I pointed out that it certainly smelled of something mystically based, when going from their own explanations of how it worked, they QUICKLY retreat from that, because they certainly want to distance themselves from any supernatural, mystical, occultic, etc... What they do then is comical: the minute they see the question turn that way (once again, based on their own explanations of how it works), they immediately retreat to the notion that it's perfectly scientifically explainable. Then when you press them for the lack-of-scientific proof, they retreat back to the "gift" thing, un-discovered science thing, etc... And round and round it goes.

One thing's for sure: You can take a metal detect, prop it on a table, turn it on, and ask 1000 people to wave a metal object in front of a coil. Each of the 1000 times it will go "beep", no matter WHO waves the object. Why is it then that an LRL needs a gift or innate ability of some "operator compatibility" to make there's function? Why can't it function is a double blind test no matter WHO operates it? Oh I know: "undiscovered science"

 

[Shambler]

I'm sure they were glad that Tom visited their forum

Everyone knows a calculator on a bicycle handle doesn't make a metal detector; however, the science of long range RF and IR detection is sound. It just isn't a practical means of locating "treasure" . In mining, it's not only practical but a necessity. "Magnetic anomaly detection" (MAD) is similar in theory and used every day by the US Navy. Also, when appropriately powered, VLF (same as in your detector) can penetrate over 100 feet of saltwater (which I would consider long range considering my uber unstable F75 tanks at a foot) and is used by shipwreck hunters albeit not legally because those frequency are used for submarine communication. I love this stuff, so it's maddening when people immediately say there's no science based on poor products.

Four years ago, I picked up a $25 toy metal detector for my son and it only detects to about 1" -- I wouldn't say that the science of VLF metal detecting is bunk based on that POS.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Shambler, some of the things you refer to as long range (based on magnetics for instance) do exist and are scientific (can be measured, etc....). Heck, I'll also ad fish sonar as a method of long range locating of an item. But the problem is, that's NOT what's being touted by the LRL gang. They're talking about precious metals being located in the ground.

A big problem is that water and air are quite a different median for a signal to travel through, than solid ground. For example: take fish sonar and aim it at the solid ground, and see for yourself how deeply you can detect a fish? And the technology that finds iron through solid ground at incredible depths (and in the ocean waters even deeper, as seen in the side-scan sonar that shipwrck hunters use). But that only works with iron, not pr ecious metals, and not in the ways the LRL advocates are claiming.

 

[grumpyolman]

I have seen dowsing for water work with a Willow stick. One summer my family and I were on vacation and stopped at a small town city hall and asked where old beaches in the area might be. The women there asked why and I told her I was using an underwater metal detector. She said we should go meet her father as he was a dowser and it might be interesting to see it work. We went to her father's house and talked with him. Apparently he had dowsed a lot of wells for the local folks and told us there was a main water channel that ran right through the property we were on. I didn't believe this for a minute, but heck we were on vacation and my kids 8 &10 were interested in this. Well, the ol guy got a forked willow stick and grabbed each side of the forked wood in his hands with his palms facing up. He took a few steps and we all saw that dang thing bend towards the ground. I still though there was a trick to it. He then asked one of the kids if they'd like to try it. My daughter, the 10 year old, grabbed the willow rod like he did and started walking toward the water channel. Nothing happened. The guy explained that some people could do it and some could not. He asked if he could put his hands under her hands to help. Hmmm! Is this guy a pervert or what? I watched really closely what he was doing and as soon as the palms of his hands touched the back of her hands that dang rod started wiggling. She was shocked and it almost made her really afraid. My son, the free spirit age 8, then gave it a try. Nobody was near him as he walked towards the water channel with the willow stick. The darn thing almost jumped out of his hand. He was not afraid like the daughter was and thought it was a real gas. He's 34 now and she's 36. They both remember that experience really clearly. We left the gentlement a little while later with a more liberal attitude about some more of the things we don't understand in this world but are apparently there. Tis true and submitted just for reading fun. The long range metal locators are another thing. My local water district guy uses brass rods to locate water lines and I saw him do it on my property. Regards,,,Jim

 

[Adrian SS]

G/Day Shambler.
From your last little burst there I am not sure if you are for or agin Undiscovered Science Powered Long Range Locator's.
Anyway let me just tear your ideas apart.

Before someone can construct an LRL that will detect whatever you happen to be concentrating on at the time that person would have to have discovered the undiscovered science that enables an "Operator Compatible" person to make the LRL work in order to know what components to construct the detector from and they would have to know the undiscovered physics, mathematics and electronic formulas necessary to devise the components that will respond to this undiscovered psychic powered science.
Long range Doppler radar, RF, LF VLF, Sonar and IR detectors have been around for a long time and these instruments will perform their designed task no matter who is the operator. None of these devices can tell the user with any certainty what type of metal or precious gem it is responding to and all of these devices respond to known and measurable electromagnetic radiation or as the case may be, sound waves.

If these LRL use conventional physics and electronic principles and if they generate electromagnetic and or infrared radiation ( IR radiation is also electromagnetic) that energises precious gems and metals at distances limited only by the imagination of the operator, you can take it from me that the LRL will need more than a couple of AA alkalines and a bit of transistor radio antenna to do it.

The Explorer space probes are still ending back signals to earth, but check out the stuff necessary to receive and interpret those signals.

Sorry mate but the LRLs are just Long Range Gullibility Detectors.

Cheers,
Adrian SS
.

 

[Carl-NC]

The question was about long range detectors ... like these: http://www.kellycodetectors.com/allbyprice/1000-up-longrange.htm

No mention of RF or IR detection until I said it. I like when someone said "there's no science behind it". That's the new, more acceptable way of saying "it's the devil's work". It's the practicality that stinks not the science. I find it funny that its accepted to interpret RF disturbance 8" into the ground but the possibility of reading the same variations for longer distances is dismissed -- not questioned, but totally dismissed with associated emoticons placed to imply smugness.

Including dowsing in the discussion is like correlating acupuncture with exorcisms.

Most LRLs, including every single one in the link you gave, are nothing but dowsing rods with some impressive-looking high-tech window dressing added on to make the buyer feel better that he just spent $1000+ on a pair of bent rods. So including dowsing in this discussion is extremely relevant, as that is what we are ultimately talking about.

Now, there is a new class of LRLs such as Mineoro and Bionic Alpha (Google them for web sites) which do not involve dowsing in any way, and claim to locate remote buried treasure via ionic emissions. I own a Mineoro FG80 (about $6K new) and it does well responding to garage door openers (a nice way to "demonstrate" the device to potential customers) but it does not detect gold in any way, and the claimed "science" behind the device is 100% bogus.

There are valid methods of remote sensing -- used in locating aquifers, oil & gas fields, and ore bodies -- and these methods are backed up with RealScience and can survive rigorous scientific testing. Dowsing, and the LRLs that rely on dowsing, is WishScience and does not hold up to scientific scrutiny. The people who peddle LRL garbage are either incredibly deluded, or incredibly dishonest.

- Carl

 

[Carl-NC]

"The minute someone tries to sue, they've got their ace-in-the-hole that "obviously the user didn't have the 'gift' or whatever they want to call it."

There is a simple way to win in court: Demand that the seller provide someone of their choice to demonstrate the device in a properly administered scientific test. If the test follows a rigorous randomized blind protocol, then it won't matter who they choose... they will fail because the device simply doesn't work.

- Carl

 

[Carl-NC]

I beg to differ as to the downsing rods i have been able to prove by trial and I will absolutely put my money where my mouth is as far as electrical only

Where do you live? I have tested several dowsers in the past who were just as confident in their ability as you, and every last one of them miserably failed when tested. James Randi has tested several hundred dowsers, and a single German test had over 500 dowsers... none could do what they thought they could do.

Dowsing is a mind trick, and does a really good job in deceiving people who try it. LRL peddlers rely on this fact.

- Carl

 

[John-Edmonton]

n/t

 

[slingshot]

Okay-here goes-and I don't know what to really think of it=I've never used it th'ing. I was a maintenance man at a large apartment complex and 5-6 buildings were stopped up and no one could find the cleanout. We called a plumbing firm and they came and found maps but the cleanouts just weren't in front of the buildings they were supposed to be. They were preparing the backhoes and were going to make one heck of a mess. I jokingly picked a forked limb and said "I'll find it"-while laughing. I had only gone about 10 feet when the dang thing ripped the bark and tore my hands! Another maintenance man had a sharpshooter in his hand and said,"you don't expect to find it there, do you?" and plunged the sharpshooter into the ground only to hear a "clank" sound about 4-6" undergound. Believe me, to this day I have mixed emotions about what happened. My manager thought everyone was lying when told I found it.

 

[Shambler]

From your last little burst

I have no idea what that means. Are you saying I had a burst because I didn't type "cheers" or "i love you"? Or were you looking for one of these -->
Come on, man! I specifically identified the current group of affordable "LRLs" that this thread spiraled into discussing as "calculators with a bike handlebar". Somehow you used that to lump me in with the dowsing crowd.

undiscovered physics, mathematics and electronic formulas necessary to devise the components that will respond to this undiscovered psychic powered science.

BAH!! Here I am talking about real science that folks use to detect metals for long distances and you're still stuck on the "psychic" dowsing arguments. The point is, again, that there is technology that will find the Gold vein (and it's not a maple twig). A discussion of what mining companies or the military are really using to detect distant objects would be very fun, but I see we just can't get there in this thread. Geez, we even jumped to spacecraft signals.

Anyway let me just tear your ideas apart.

Wow.......

I bow to your superior knowledge of long range detecting and concede all points as valid and well thought out. Thread closed?

 

[Adrian SS]

G/Day slingshot,
I am not denouncing water dowsing or other substance dowsing,
My Grandfather was a water diviner, he was also a gold miner and had extensive geological knowledge. Grandad used a forked willow stick and he would hold the forked end in each hand palms up, hold the stick with a firm grip horizontally out in front of him and proceed to stroll through the paddocks and when at some point the stick would seemingly start to vibrate and bend towards the ground and at a certain point granddad would stop walking and begin to mark time on the spot and when he stopped, the number of steps he had taken was the depth in feet that water would be found. Sometimes he was right and sometimes he found nothing. Granddad was a smart man and he used his knowledge of the geology of a particular region to his advantage when water divining. He used to make a bit of extra cash by finding undergroud water for the local farmers. I have tried water divining with a forked willow stick and what I found was that by holding the forked end with my palms up was that when I put an inward twisting pressure on the fork the end would bend downward and at a particular pressure the fork would vibrate, when I slackened my grip the vibration and bending stopped. I was 14 years old when I tried this
The electronic LRLs are an orchestrated scam aimed at people who think they might have the compatibility to make them work where in fact they are getting what John- Edmonton mentioned; A set of very expensive dowsing rods disguised as a you beaut piece of electronic equipment that does absolutely nothing. But, at the same time the LRLs are also aimed at people who know nothing about dowsing and electronics or metal detectors and it is these people who are being duped the most, they put blind faith in the producers of these items and believe them to be offering a wonderful new device of the electronic age that will do what is claimed of it which will lead them to wealth and happiness but instead it fleeces them of what little money they might have.
The sooner the producers and peddlers of these LRLs are brought to justice the better off everyone will be.

Cheers
Adrian SS

 

[Steve(MS)]

There hasn't been any credible evidence that any LRL works for finding treasures whether with the use of electronics or by dowsing.
The fact that a very large percent of metal detector users don't use LRLs ought to be a red flag for anyone thinking about getting one of these devices.
Anyone who believes they do work should keep it to themselves or be ready to prove beyond a reasonable doubt the ability of an LRL, just claiming they work ain't gonna get it.
If you question the users/ believers of LRLs about particulars, such as what size does the gold have to be before it is detected, they are rather vague about it.
If these devises only find large chunks of gold(even if they do work), how much good would they be to most who are out looking for metalic objects worth recovering?
Could a LRL find only gold and not detect lead, copper, aluminum, zinc, brass or even iron?
Do LRLs give a stronger signal, the closer it gets to the desired object?
Do objects have to be buried in the ground for a very long time and how long do objects have to be buried before they will be detected by LRLs?
The more one asks such basic questions, the more likely there will be run-around answers.
Caveat emptor

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Nope, won't work. They'll tell you there must've been moon-phases that day, or sun-spots, or that someone had a magnet in their pocket to disrupt the test, etc.....