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Iron Trash and Hot Rocks - Help!
- Thread starter DFXer
- Start date
Bob,
What do you mean by the "last" noise cancel?
The question is "what does noise cancel really do"?
The manual states emphatically that noise cancel minimizes airborne EMI and has nothing to do with the ground at all. In fact that is why they say to hold the SE 30 cm away from the ground when you noise cancel. With the effort they put into writing that page (page 56), I doubt that it is wrong.
If page 56 is wrong then Minelab has some soul searching to do. Sandy is inferring that noise cancelling with the coil on the ground is performing a ground balance, which is contrary to Minelabs comments on their ground rejection technology.
Somebody is dead wrong.
Paul
What do you mean by the "last" noise cancel?
The question is "what does noise cancel really do"?
The manual states emphatically that noise cancel minimizes airborne EMI and has nothing to do with the ground at all. In fact that is why they say to hold the SE 30 cm away from the ground when you noise cancel. With the effort they put into writing that page (page 56), I doubt that it is wrong.
If page 56 is wrong then Minelab has some soul searching to do. Sandy is inferring that noise cancelling with the coil on the ground is performing a ground balance, which is contrary to Minelabs comments on their ground rejection technology.
Somebody is dead wrong.
Paul
But it is within the realm of realistic possibility that the EMI received by the coil may be different when it's on the ground than in the air.
I wonder if some of the differences reported between the SE and previous versions is not just the coil differences but the noise cancelling method.
I do it both ways with my SE and nothing has jumped out at me yet but I'm also usually not very methodical and tend to operate from a more intuitive/subconscious direction with only a running layer of logical on top.
Rich,
I agree with you and I wish Minelab would explain these things in more detail.
The people who write manuals have a tough job because they have to assume that every reader is starting out from ground zero. As a consequence they stop the technical detail discussion too soon and leave a lot to the imagination.
As a side issue - I was on a web site with guys who design metal detectors and filtering circuits and they believe that
Minelab is processing only a few of the 28 frequencies at a time because a microprocessor that that could handle that much information would be out of the price range of the detecting community. One suggestion was that the software looks at the best response from a few frequencies and those are processed. This is only hearsay as only ML knows.
These machines are fascinating.
Paul
I agree with you and I wish Minelab would explain these things in more detail.
The people who write manuals have a tough job because they have to assume that every reader is starting out from ground zero. As a consequence they stop the technical detail discussion too soon and leave a lot to the imagination.
As a side issue - I was on a web site with guys who design metal detectors and filtering circuits and they believe that
Minelab is processing only a few of the 28 frequencies at a time because a microprocessor that that could handle that much information would be out of the price range of the detecting community. One suggestion was that the software looks at the best response from a few frequencies and those are processed. This is only hearsay as only ML knows.
These machines are fascinating.
Paul
I suggest anyone who doesn't believe me can call Sandy at Minelab and ask her for yourself.
Correct, Noise canceling in the air is the first step if outside interference is bothering. But when done the air cancel, you should also cancel on clean ground.
Also you should noise cancel often as you hut. There are only 3 or 4 people that actually detect as a hobby and work for minelab USA. Sandy is one and a very knowledgeable one at that.
I hesitated to post my visit with Sandy and what I learned just for this reason. Why would I make this up on this of all forums.
This is Sandy at the natural hunt that I headed on April 18th. She was a big help to a lot of folks the whole 3 days.
[attachment 89173 100_1911.JPG]
Correct, Noise canceling in the air is the first step if outside interference is bothering. But when done the air cancel, you should also cancel on clean ground.
Also you should noise cancel often as you hut. There are only 3 or 4 people that actually detect as a hobby and work for minelab USA. Sandy is one and a very knowledgeable one at that.
I hesitated to post my visit with Sandy and what I learned just for this reason. Why would I make this up on this of all forums.
This is Sandy at the natural hunt that I headed on April 18th. She was a big help to a lot of folks the whole 3 days.
[attachment 89173 100_1911.JPG]
Bob,
I believe what you say and what Sandy says but why is there a conflict with what the manual says? A manual is supposed to be the bible of any device but here it doesn't appear to be. Minelab is a great company and I don't believe that they would leave something that important out of a manual.
Will the real "noise cancel" stand up!
I'm only trying to get the last inch for my $1500.
Paul
I believe what you say and what Sandy says but why is there a conflict with what the manual says? A manual is supposed to be the bible of any device but here it doesn't appear to be. Minelab is a great company and I don't believe that they would leave something that important out of a manual.
Will the real "noise cancel" stand up!
I'm only trying to get the last inch for my $1500.
Paul
I for one have been hunting a year and a half with my machines incorrectly noise canceled, makes you really wonder what you've missed?? This my friend, may be the key to hunting in saturated soil when your machine is falsing a bunch. Remember my post a week ago wishing for a manual ground balance....Here it is!! I think everyone believes you. It's a shocker though. And see, this is what I don't get. The SE has been out 1 1/2 years, you would think Mine Lab could update their manual and post it for download on their web site. And just maybe it might include possibly little important things such as this, which absolutely oppose the directions given in the currently incorrect manual. THAT THEY ARE STILL SENDING OUT WITH THE MACHINES THEY SOLD TODAY AND WILL STILL BE SENDING OUT IN THE UNITS PEOPLE ARE BUYING NEXT YEAR!!!!! What's going to happen now is Sandy is going to get a flood of phone calls she doesn't have the time to deal with. Then she will be slow to "leak" anymore advice unfortunately and unfairly to you Bob. Bob, I think it's great that you shared this info with us, thank you. You may have unwittingly stubbed your toe, though. I did the same thing last year with the factory reset advice I was given. I thought it would help people, so I shared. I just wish that Sandy or Mine Lab themselves would update their Knowledge to us, so that we could make better use of their product. The last I heard of Sandy talking about noise canceling was to point your coil in the direction of the interference at waist high and Noise Cancel, nothing about on the ground. It makes sense, in fact, on several occasions I have tried that when it wouldn't settle down, but I didn't realize you were supposed to do it every time. Again Bob, thank you for teaching me something that I probably would have never known otherwise, don't let people's comments get to you.
It wouldn't be a true ground balance but more like a noise cancel while the noise was reacting with the minerals in the soil. What truly doesn't make any sense what so ever is to noise cancel TWICE because the 2nd noise cancel will ALWAYS override the first. So the first noise cancel has no purpose.
minelab marcus
Member
The field I found my first and so far only half is loaded with hot rocks too. I almost passed it up as well. That won't happen again!
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I was wondering who would feel the need to post something so negative for no good reason so I called up your posts. The first page was a solid mass of vitriol complaining about Jews, Minelab, Jews, Bush and the Jews, etc. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it. Life is too short to spend it being bitter. I feel sorry for you. Find some love and pleasure in your life if you're able to. In the meantime, please go away. (I will not again respond to your trolls.)
if you think about it, every time you hit the noise cancel button it samples the clearest channel of the 11 available. Now if the coil is on the ground and you hit noise cancel, it will sample those 11 channels on the ground and pick the clearest one, at that time. The last time the coil was in the air, those results are ignored, I mean the machine doesn't know that last time you NC'd in the air and now this time you are now NC'ing on the ground. It doesn't know that now it should start blending the results of the two different noise cancels. See what I mean? It is just going to pick the clearest channel out of the 11 sampled during your very last noise cancel only; whether that was while your coil was in the air, on the ground, or on the moon. So, if that's what Sandy said, that one should noise cancel in the air and then again on the ground, that part wouldn't make a whole lot of sense.
I for one have always thought that it would make better sense to noise cancel with the coil in the position you hunted in (close to the ground), because I just haven't found many coins in the air lately but I know where I can find a three cent piece if I can just get this damn thing to stop nulling the iron out in this guys floor boards
All metal all the time: especially in Bob's truck
But seriously, that double noise cancel doesn't make any sense, and here is why: if you noise canceled in Georgia looking for gold under a cell phone tower (resulting in say channel 6) and the next time you noise canceled was in Des Moines next to a farmers electric cattle fence and the clearest channel came up on 9 at that moment, if the machine blended those two different results (6 and 9), it would be way off kilter and worthless. My money would be on that machine choosing channel 9 in Des Moines because that was the clearest channel at that time and if you drove back to Georgia to that same spot again you were at originally when this trip started and the clearest channel was again 6, then that is what the machine would use regardless of the last time it was noise canceled, or where, or the previous result.
In heavy iron, I have even tried to noise cancel with the coil over the iron with the coil on the ground, I don't know if it worked better or not because I still found targets, I don't know if I were on a different channel if I would I have missed those targets. I just thought, if I am looking for coins next to and in between iron then the clearest channel while being influenced by that same iron should be my best bet. It seemed to work, but again, how the heck do you really know? I guess a guy without a life and a whole lot of time on his hands like JW(that was a joke by the way) could presumably hover over a target changing channels manually to see if one worked better then the others. I only tease JW because in his paper I read the other week he mentioned exactly that happening, so that point may have some actual weight to it.
Let me know what you guys think.
I for one have always thought that it would make better sense to noise cancel with the coil in the position you hunted in (close to the ground), because I just haven't found many coins in the air lately but I know where I can find a three cent piece if I can just get this damn thing to stop nulling the iron out in this guys floor boards All metal all the time: especially in Bob's truck But seriously, that double noise cancel doesn't make any sense, and here is why: if you noise canceled in Georgia looking for gold under a cell phone tower (resulting in say channel 6) and the next time you noise canceled was in Des Moines next to a farmers electric cattle fence and the clearest channel came up on 9 at that moment, if the machine blended those two different results (6 and 9), it would be way off kilter and worthless. My money would be on that machine choosing channel 9 in Des Moines because that was the clearest channel at that time and if you drove back to Georgia to that same spot again you were at originally when this trip started and the clearest channel was again 6, then that is what the machine would use regardless of the last time it was noise canceled, or where, or the previous result. In heavy iron, I have even tried to noise cancel with the coil over the iron with the coil on the ground, I don't know if it worked better or not because I still found targets, I don't know if I were on a different channel if I would I have missed those targets. I just thought, if I am looking for coins next to and in between iron then the clearest channel while being influenced by that same iron should be my best bet. It seemed to work, but again, how the heck do you really know? I guess a guy without a life and a whole lot of time on his hands like JW
(that was a joke by the way) could presumably hover over a target changing channels manually to see if one worked better then the others. I only tease JW because in his paper I read the other week he mentioned exactly that happening, so that point may have some actual weight to it. Let me know what you guys think.