ID meter and or beep and dig

[WV62]

Wish I could do that, but I catch myself peaking for a good number and high confidence bars. Some day I may just cover the meter and see if I can hunt with it like that for a day, I mean an hour.

Ron in WV

 

[chuck ky]

If the target is averaged down on the visual i.d. it will also be averaged down on the tone i.d.

 

[MarkCZ]

If the target is averaged down on the visual i.d. it will also be averaged down on the tone i.d.

Correct!
The question is, if the ID numbers are wrong, then the meter can't call a coin a coin, so if we omit the meter and fall back to a beep & dig, lower the discrimination below most of the downed averaging and dig the better signal responses will we do better then we are now using the High Tech metered units.

The real question to begin with was,

If an area has been seemingly worked out using modern VID units is it really WORKED out and would the same area be just as worked out if we went in using the old school beep & dig detectors?

I don't think it was ever a question of better or worse detectors, but more about different, it seems that if the good stuff that's left can't be ID'ed visually then the High Tech meter is pretty worthless, so is it possible that a detector that had built a reputation of audio discrimination (audio target ID) could make the seemly worked out area a little more productive? (and figuring on digging more trash too)

Is the audio ID in a metered unit as good as a high end unit that was only built as an audio ID model?

I figure when the first warm spell comes Ron and I will be doing some testing with our "Audio ID" detector.

Mark

 

[REVIER]

Wish I could do that, but I catch myself peaking for a good number and high confidence bars. Some day I may just cover the meter and see if I can hunt with it like that for a day, I mean an hour.

Ron in WV

Funny....
I never look at the confidence bars and I mean never.
I rely on the confidence I have in what I hear in the tone and the behavior of the numbers only.
Maybe I should try to remember to check out those bars out more for some more indicators I can use but in the back of my mind I seem to be thinking the thing would have a ton of bars over a 32 nickel signal that is actually a sta tab or a 42 beaver tail tab signal and which either might actually be a gold ring so in effect it would be lying to me.
I get enough of that from the people in my life...I don't need that from my hunting tools.

 

[Elton]

Mark:

It would seem to make sense if one dug every target then they would find more items of course. I think meter detecting ( My choice) is more for selective detecting.

If you want it all.Dig it all.If you want coins only ( My preference) and a few other accidental finds that read as coins then the meter is the choice detecting one wants.

There is no right or wrong.It's preference.

I do not care to find every piece of tin. foil, can slaw etc that others tolerate digging very well. I listen for good sounds and observe confirmation on the meter. This saves this old guy a lot of up and downs out in the field ..... Some machines are accurate enough on the meter to satisfy me, and more than likely, some others.

As Digger has said on many forums..The only sure way to know what you have in the ground is dig it all. I give up some targets for the shear sake of doing it how I enjoy the hobby.

 

[WV62]

Wish I could do that, but I catch myself peaking for a good number and high confidence bars. Some day I may just cover the meter and see if I can hunt with it like that for a day, I mean an hour.

Ron in WV

Funny....
I never look at the confidence bars and I mean never.
I rely on the confidence I have in what I hear in the tone and the behavior of the numbers only.
Maybe I should try to remember to check out those bars out more for some more indicators I can use but in the back of my mind I seem to be thinking the thing would have a ton of bars over a 32 nickel signal that is actually a sta tab or a 42 beaver tail tab signal and which either might actually be a gold ring so in effect it would be lying to me.
I get enough of that from the people in my life...I don't need that from my hunting tools.

REVIER,

You seem to have pretty good success with your hunting, so be careful, you may get some of my bad habits. I use the confidence meter just for high tone coins, and it does work. I haven't found any sizable gold with the F75 ever so I can't get a handle on the difference between gold and tabs or any trash for that matter. This is kind of why I started this thread, back in the day when running only beep & dig I would find some pretty nice gold from time to time.

Ron in WV

 

[MarkCZ]

Mark:

It would seem to make sense if one dug every target then they would find more items of course. I think meter detecting ( My choice) is more for selective detecting.

If you want it all.Dig it all.If you want coins only ( My preference) and a few other accidental finds that read as coins then the meter is the choice detecting one wants.

There is no right or wrong.It's preference.

I do not care to find every piece of tin. foil, can slaw etc that others tolerate digging very well. I listen for good sounds and observe confirmation on the meter. This saves this old guy a lot of up and downs out in the field ..... Some machines are accurate enough on the meter to satisfy me, and more than likely, some others.

As Digger has said on many forums..The only sure way to know what you have in the ground is dig it all. I give up some targets for the shear sake of doing it how I enjoy the hobby.

Good point!
In this park I don't think you could cover any ground and "Dig All" but I'm thinking with the beep and dig we could lower the discrimination down to around the Zinc range or just a little lower and dig pretty much all the good signals above that and that would take out trying to tight range the coins in a narrow number range.

Mark

 

[slingshot]

There is only one other option I can think of that has merit- place motion discriminate at iron and then compare the audio responses of discriminate and all metal. This is a very plausible alternative and has been successful since the 70's.

 

[Elton]

Mark:

It would seem to make sense if one dug every target then they would find more items of course. I think meter detecting ( My choice) is more for selective detecting.

If you want it all.Dig it all.If you want coins only ( My preference) and a few other accidental finds that read as coins then the meter is the choice detecting one wants.

There is no right or wrong.It's preference.

I do not care to find every piece of tin. foil, can slaw etc that others tolerate digging very well. I listen for good sounds and observe confirmation on the meter. This saves this old guy a lot of up and downs out in the field ..... Some machines are accurate enough on the meter to satisfy me, and more than likely, some others.

As Digger has said on many forums..The only sure way to know what you have in the ground is dig it all. I give up some targets for the shear sake of doing it how I enjoy the hobby.

Good point!
In this park I don't think you could cover any ground and "Dig All" but I'm thinking with the beep and dig we could lower the discrimination down to around the Zinc range or just a little lower and dig pretty much all the good signals above that and that would take out trying to tight range the coins in a narrow number range.

Mark

Sounds like a good plan to me.

 

[daddyflea]

I think the Etrac kinda covers this ground. With the etrac you have to really listen to the Detector. If it hits a coin in a nail bed the meter will never give you a good reading. In fact if you do not move the coil away from the target the meter will not update period. So even though it does have a meter the Etrac is really a combination of both a beep and dig and a Metered Machine.

 

[WV62]

There is only one other option I can think of that has merit- place motion discriminate at iron and then compare the audio responses of discriminate and all metal. This is a very plausible alternative and has been successful since the 70's.

Slingshot,
Interesting comment and I never heard of this before, could you explain a little more in detail what is going on with a process like this. As you said disc at iron, hit a target and then pull the trigger and check in all metal, or do I switch to motion AM and check the target? What can I tell is going on?

Ron in WV

 

[slingshot]

Sorry, I left for awhile. Monte had a good article on this, but I,ll give my understanding and how I used it. Some start with the discriminate mode to where iron just breaks up and hunt until a hit. Then, they flip to a/m, and if the target gets louder, it's probably junk. If it stays the same, it's probably in the nickel/tab/gold area. If it gets somewhat softer, it could be high conductors- like silver. Two SOFT signals (usually a deep target) and cross your fingers as you dig,dig,dig!! If you start in a/m, a junk signal will likely break up and be faint, or just go away, in disc mode, for the first instance. It can make a difference on deep targets Hope it helps.

 

[WV62]

Sorry, I left for awhile. Monte had a good article on this, but I,ll give my understanding and how I used it. Some start with the discriminate mode to where iron just breaks up and hunt until a hit. Then, they flip to a/m, and if the target gets louder, it's probably junk. If it stays the same, it's probably in the nickel/tab/gold area. If it gets somewhat softer, it could be high conductors- like silver. Two SOFT signals (usually a deep target) and cross your fingers as you dig,dig,dig!! If you start in a/m, a junk signal will likely break up and be faint, or just go away, in disc mode, for the first instance. It can make a difference on deep targets Hope it helps.

Thanks, I thought maybe once you explained it I would remember hearing or reading about this, but it is new news to me.

One last question, does it make any difference which AM mode used, the pin point non motion, or the motion all metal.

Ron in WV

 

[REVIER]

Sorry, I left for awhile. Monte had a good article on this, but I,ll give my understanding and how I used it. Some start with the discriminate mode to where iron just breaks up and hunt until a hit. Then, they flip to a/m, and if the target gets louder, it's probably junk. If it stays the same, it's probably in the nickel/tab/gold area. If it gets somewhat softer, it could be high conductors- like silver. Two SOFT signals (usually a deep target) and cross your fingers as you dig,dig,dig!! If you start in a/m, a junk signal will likely break up and be faint, or just go away, in disc mode, for the first instance. It can make a difference on deep targets Hope it helps.

Here is a more complete reprint of what I think is this information posted by a MXT user on another forum...


-----------------
Here are some general rules of thumb for the sounds your detector makes in discriminate and all-metal (VCO pinpointing mode).
Although I write this article from an MXT perspective, this post should more or less also apply to many other detectors with modulated audio.

If my memory serves me, I believe many of these guidelines where originally posted by that Master Jedi Detectorist, Monte .
Who has kindly shared his detecting experience with many through the years.


1. When you get a loud signal in discriminate mode and the pinpoint signal is loud--?
It is usually a large target near the surface.

2. If you get a loud signal in discriminate mode and a much weaker signal when pinpointing--?
It is usually a large target deeper.

3. If you get a good signal in discriminate mode and an extremely weak signal when pinpointing --?
It is usually a tiny target or a very deep coin size target.
Also some hot rocks and coal burnt items mimic this same sound (a little practice in this area helps).

4. If you get a good signal in discriminate mode and a clear pinpoint signal (average sound)--?
Then dig. This is usually a coin size item at average depth.
This is what many of us train their ears to.

5. If you get a weak signal in discriminate mode and also a weak pinpoint--?
This is the "cream of the crop signal" for deep target hunters.
Unfortunately some small shallow objects also mimic this sound.
Take out 3" to 4" of dirt and if the signal is still weak it is probably a deep target.
Pay close attention to those soft signals (also called "whispers" by many).

6. One way signals--these sound good on the first sweep in discriminate mode (in one direction but not in the other --backsweep, etc.).--?
When pinpointing you may get an extremely loud pinpoint and write it off as trash--DON'T!---Many times it is a good target next to a piece of trash.
Dig out the trash and look for the good target.
Experiment with some of these targets to see how your detector reacts.

7. Semi broken signals-- On the first sweep in discriminate mode you get a signal that tries to punch through the discrimination setting (usually a half to 3/4 signal).--?
This occurs in places of EXTREME trash. Swinging the coil at different angles and sweep speeds can help isolate the signal and gives you a better idea whether to dig or not.

In these cases pinpoint doesn't give you much information because of the multiple targets in the ground (trash around the good target).
Beginners have a tough time with these signals and the only real way to learn them is to PRACTICE with your detector.This is where a veteran with an inexpensive detector can clean up vs. a rookie with a new high dollar detector.

There are a lot of other things that the audio beeps can tell you. However, the specific detector being used has a lot of bearing on just how "rich" in information that beep contains. I think the old analog type detectors provided more information of this kind than the newer digital everything ones and the detectors without modulated audio take away some information as well.

On the MXT, I can usually tell by the sound level ramp up/down and width if the target is small (coin size), or a larger piece of trash. A crackly beep is usually an indication of wadded aluminum foil (it could also, under the right conditions, be a target being partiatlly discriminated). Sometimes a pulltab will produce a double beep, and so on. The non-motion all metal mode can also help you "size" the target and the VCO volume, combined with the indicated depth, can help you figure out if you really found a silver dollar or half, or if it is a crushed soda can.

Also, when you put the loop to the side of the target to go into pin poin mode, if rather than quiet you get a low level of the VCO sound before you are even close to the target, it is usually an indication of a ferrous target. It could also mean that the ground balance is way off.

You have to learn your detector's language to get the best out of it so give it time![/QUOTE]

 

[slingshot]

Sorry, I left for awhile. Monte had a good article on this, but I,ll give my understanding and how I used it. Some start with the discriminate mode to where iron just breaks up and hunt until a hit. Then, they flip to a/m, and if the target gets louder, it's probably junk. If it stays the same, it's probably in the nickel/tab/gold area. If it gets somewhat softer, it could be high conductors- like silver. Two SOFT signals (usually a deep target) and cross your fingers as you dig,dig,dig!! If you start in a/m, a junk signal will likely break up and be faint, or just go away, in disc mode, for the first instance. It can make a difference on deep targets Hope it helps.

Thanks, I thought maybe once you explained it I would remember hearing or reading about this, but it is new news to me.

One last question, does it make any difference which AM mode used, the pin point non motion, or the motion all metal.

Ron in WV

There is one thing I forgot-keep the searchcoil the same height when switching modes. I would try both pinpoint and motion a/m, since some machines vary, until you get the best results. All I've ever experimented with is pinpoint. As an example, my Ace 250 will not pinpoint as deep as it will detect in motion discriminate. Although I don't use this machine for deep targets, it's an example of how machines differ.

 

[woodchuck1127]

My only down fall with ID machines is you get lazy and believe what screen tells you, and end up missing good targets .And spend to much time looking at screen . While with beep and did you tend to slow down and listen to your targets and dig by how good target sounds. I have found that I find more with beep and dig because I am paying more attention to targets and not skipping over. You never know what you might find unless you dig. There will never be a perfect detector in Target ID or beep and dig .each as its own qualities in the end its up to you to dig or not.

 

[slingshot]

My only down fall with ID machines is you get lazy and believe what screen tells you, and end up missing good targets .And spend to much time looking at screen . While with beep and did you tend to slow down and listen to your targets and dig by how good target sounds. I have found that I find more with beep and dig because I am paying more attention to targets and not skipping over. You never know what you might find unless you dig. There will never be a perfect detector in Target ID or beep and dig .each as its own qualities in the end its up to you to dig or not.

So true. I think the problem is he's overwhelmed w/trash and wants to try for only deep silver.

 

[MarkCZ]

My only down fall with ID machines is you get lazy and believe what screen tells you, and end up missing good targets .And spend to much time looking at screen . While with beep and did you tend to slow down and listen to your targets and dig by how good target sounds. I have found that I find more with beep and dig because I am paying more attention to targets and not skipping over. You never know what you might find unless you dig. There will never be a perfect detector in Target ID or beep and dig .each as its own qualities in the end its up to you to dig or not.

So true. I think the problem is he's overwhelmed w/trash and wants to try for only deep silver.

"slingshot" your right on about trying to work around the trash and get the old coins, will call this "cherry picking" but that's what we've been doing in the park sense 1980. Now, we're pretty sure that there is still some silver there, but not much to cherry pick anymore. Whenever there isn't a new place to hunt we always fall back to the park and lately that's not been productive enough to make it worth the trouble of three of us hunting the park for 7 or 8 hours and total between us three might make .37 cents in clad.

The way we've always hunted the park isn't working anymore,
Its just a good place to go,
We think they're is more stuff to find,
Watching the meters and cherry picking is OVER,
So, the question we have is "Has the metered detectors really cleaned the are out of the good stuff, or can we go back in with some beep & dig detectors, drop the discrimination down a little below the higher coin conductive range, dig a little more trash (not all the trash) and be more productive than what we're doing with the VDI units"?

Mark

 

[slingshot]

I am perplexed by your indecisiveness. You say you know there's more, but wonder if it's worth the effort. Personally, I think you're wasting time. I too have an old park and no amount of modern technology has brought up anything missed. I've seen some pretty good detectors go over it. I talked to one group, a treasure club staff, and they confided that nothing deep was found. They didn't know until I later told them I worked the park regularly.:clsoedeyes:
That's why I recommended listening for two soft "round" signals in a/m and disc. and maybe ignoring all others. I know of at least one successful user who has used this on older sites.

 

[MarkCZ]

I am perplexed by your indecisiveness. You say you know there's more, but wonder if it's worth the effort. Personally, I think you're wasting time. I too have an old park and no amount of modern technology has brought up anything missed. I've seen some pretty good detectors go over it. I talked to one group, a treasure club staff, and they confided that nothing deep was found. They didn't know until I later told them I worked the park regularly.:clsoedeyes:
That's why I recommended listening for two soft "round" signals in a/m and disc. and maybe ignoring all others. I know of at least one successful user who has used this on older sites.

Well, I actually said,

We think they're is more stuff to find,

But I see your point, as for me I doubt that I could handle a beep, a squawk, a click and a pop ever couple of inches in a 110 acre park. Now, my brother Ron might if it turns up a little silver or gold.
So, for me I'm leaning towards trying to come up with something or someway of using my 1266 that will be different enough and cover enough ground to maybe snag a few more older coins out of the area.


Mark