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Got about 10 minutes? Excalibur Speaker choice, Which is the Best?
- Thread starter OldBeechnut
- Start date
Mel Parker
Member
I have done lots of tests myself and found out that there are lots of factors that determine the quality of the sound. Some factors are the size of the Piezos, the size and the thickness of the sounding board, the material the sounding board is made of, the material used to glue the Piezos to the board, the size of the wire soldered to the Piezos. It's important to keep the wire real small so that it doesn't dampen the vibrations, then there is the factor of the silicon and the type and amout of silicone used to waterproof them and the housing that they are mounted in like H10As. I'm sure I missed some factors.
Sven
Well-known member
To hear all the speakers, really have to sit down and listen to them again.
If anyone has a set of computer gaming headphones, listen video again to the speakers thru them.
You'll really notice a difference between those speakers.
I am finding some sound better in different ways...............
This will help me to build another set more taylored to my hearing.
Here's a kicker, the 600ohm Kobitones may sound a little too base after you try or use the audioshears as in the Killer b's.
Now hunt with the 600ohm Kobitones for about 20 minutes and during that time, your hearing , at least mine seem to adjust to the tones
where they sound really nice. Go back and put the Killer B's back on and they sound horribly tinny. I do use the Killer B's a lot on my Tesoro's and PI,
they sound cleaner but, the treble gets on my nerves after about 1 hour.
I think Rick at a good thing going with the Ratphones when he made the VTF's with the adjustable frequency tones, you could dial in the frequency that suited you best.
Too bad, they got a bad rap by many and were discontinued, only a handful were made. I had one and kick myself for selling them. Lucky for me I was able to get the schematics to build a set,
just haven't gotten around to it. Now that I'm older, may have to take another look at building a pair.
Just an added note, when using the 600 ohm Kobi's, volume may excessively loud even with volume controls on the headset. By adding a resistor on the speakers will tame them down. And or make a sound limiter--diode, capacitor.
Best if you had a volume control on your detector as well.
That posting with the hearing test-ringtones was a real eye opener, found a whole range of tones I can no longer hear. Found up to 12khz, 15khz, 19khz, 22khzno problem hearing. Anything else, man I'm deaf..........
And for those who want to build your own land Ratphones headphones, there's a lot of good information in my tutorial that could also help you build your water set.
http://www.treasurelinx.com/mods.html
Beechnut you did an excellent job, thanks for kicking my brain to rethink headphones.
If anyone has a set of computer gaming headphones, listen video again to the speakers thru them.
You'll really notice a difference between those speakers.
I am finding some sound better in different ways...............
This will help me to build another set more taylored to my hearing.
Here's a kicker, the 600ohm Kobitones may sound a little too base after you try or use the audioshears as in the Killer b's.
Now hunt with the 600ohm Kobitones for about 20 minutes and during that time, your hearing , at least mine seem to adjust to the tones
where they sound really nice. Go back and put the Killer B's back on and they sound horribly tinny. I do use the Killer B's a lot on my Tesoro's and PI,
they sound cleaner but, the treble gets on my nerves after about 1 hour.
I think Rick at a good thing going with the Ratphones when he made the VTF's with the adjustable frequency tones, you could dial in the frequency that suited you best.
Too bad, they got a bad rap by many and were discontinued, only a handful were made. I had one and kick myself for selling them. Lucky for me I was able to get the schematics to build a set,
just haven't gotten around to it. Now that I'm older, may have to take another look at building a pair.
Just an added note, when using the 600 ohm Kobi's, volume may excessively loud even with volume controls on the headset. By adding a resistor on the speakers will tame them down. And or make a sound limiter--diode, capacitor.
Best if you had a volume control on your detector as well.
That posting with the hearing test-ringtones was a real eye opener, found a whole range of tones I can no longer hear. Found up to 12khz, 15khz, 19khz, 22khzno problem hearing. Anything else, man I'm deaf..........
And for those who want to build your own land Ratphones headphones, there's a lot of good information in my tutorial that could also help you build your water set.
http://www.treasurelinx.com/mods.html
Beechnut you did an excellent job, thanks for kicking my brain to rethink headphones.
dewcon4414
Well-known member
The ear muffs will also make a difference. If the pro gold and black widow use the same speaker..... then why is the widows supposedly the loudest on the market, ear muffs maybe that cut down on exterior noise. I still vote for no. 2 Joe ... lol. I did like the Koss but they did stupid stuff like put a straight plug on them..... sound was good thou not as good as the Pro Golds.
Dew
Dew
Same thing with Johnson/Evinrude outboard motors, the only difference is the paint job and the Evinrude is made on the night shift as the old joke goes.
So just buy the one with the best price, unless you prefer one headset for comfort over the other.
Good information.
So just buy the one with the best price, unless you prefer one headset for comfort over the other.
Good information.
fsa46 said:
OldBeechnut
Well-known member
I had used them the week before and found they are the best for PP/AM hunting, but the discriminate mode the tones are so tinny that after hearing the speakers...Night and day difference. Speakers so much better...would I give up the tones? Yes, for the piezo tubes do as well as the amped doc's set I have on the faints..seems the faints come thur as well when the pitch is higher, louder, and tinner.OTlewis said:
OldBeechnut
Well-known member
Thanks Mel,....... here is a couple other things to ad to the list, and this is with the PUI's piezo, Pressure on the piezo. All I put together I applied under pressure, all were coated with aquaseal, and the tube aids in the amplification..117db L, 121db R, as loud as Doc's amped, and the amp added to these, no change. One little note, I also had a few I covered the tubes, did give them more Bass...still considering this..
OldBeechnut
Well-known member
Thanks Sven
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi7HvmnDvhM&feature=youtu.be
Yep, correctsven said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi7HvmnDvhM&feature=youtu.be
Interesting - in that last comparison video, the Tubes were louder, the 600's sounded better to me in terms of sound though. I'm going to try listening to this, and the others again, using different headphones on the laptop to see if what I'm listening with makes a difference in how your videos sound.
Ok Joe,
I used two different headphones on my end to listen to your videos - Results do differ depending on what I'm listening with. I need to get a 1/4 to Mini adapter to check this out further. Results of using my daughters ear buds are: Ratphone combo is first choice, Sven's phones Second, and Kobi - DS408's third. It was a closer call between Rats/Sven's this time.
So, I suspect the results of who prefers what is not based just on each individuals hearing, but also on what they are using when they listen to your videos. If I can find the adapter, I have three or four other sets of HP's to listen with - would be interesting to find if the same audio you present is "better" if listened with Audio phone when hearing your audio phone set, or if that same thing sounds "better" using Kobi-DS408's, etc.
I was surprised by how much a difference using different ear buds/headphones made on my end.
I used two different headphones on my end to listen to your videos - Results do differ depending on what I'm listening with. I need to get a 1/4 to Mini adapter to check this out further. Results of using my daughters ear buds are: Ratphone combo is first choice, Sven's phones Second, and Kobi - DS408's third. It was a closer call between Rats/Sven's this time.
So, I suspect the results of who prefers what is not based just on each individuals hearing, but also on what they are using when they listen to your videos. If I can find the adapter, I have three or four other sets of HP's to listen with - would be interesting to find if the same audio you present is "better" if listened with Audio phone when hearing your audio phone set, or if that same thing sounds "better" using Kobi-DS408's, etc.
I was surprised by how much a difference using different ear buds/headphones made on my end.
OldBeechnut
Well-known member
Good point tim, thank you for the feedback...
Ordered 50 of the audiosears 2463's today.....
Ordered 50 of the audiosears 2463's today.....
Hey Joe,
Are your test being conducted with the speakers wired in series or in parallel? The Rat Phone and Black Widows are wired in parallel however the Koss UR-30 and others are in series. Depending on the impedance of the speakers this can make huge difference in the quality and amplitude of the sound.
Adding Speakers in series increases the overall resistance of the circuit, while adding them in parallel decreases the overall resistance of the circuit.
Impedance matching is also very important in order to achieve the same output from a pair of speakers, in other words you don't want a 165 ohm paired with a 135 ohm speaker. I believe that the three digit code on the front of the Audiosears may indicate a lot code or sort code in order to be able to have matched sets. (RE: Audiosears 150 ohm +/- 10%)
Are your test being conducted with the speakers wired in series or in parallel? The Rat Phone and Black Widows are wired in parallel however the Koss UR-30 and others are in series. Depending on the impedance of the speakers this can make huge difference in the quality and amplitude of the sound.
Adding Speakers in series increases the overall resistance of the circuit, while adding them in parallel decreases the overall resistance of the circuit.
Impedance matching is also very important in order to achieve the same output from a pair of speakers, in other words you don't want a 165 ohm paired with a 135 ohm speaker. I believe that the three digit code on the front of the Audiosears may indicate a lot code or sort code in order to be able to have matched sets. (RE: Audiosears 150 ohm +/- 10%)
OldBeechnut
Well-known member
Thanks SP, I have tried both ways, series x parallel...seems both are so close it is hard to tell any difference. Once I'm set on speakers, then I will fine tune the details..with 10 sets of ears..just going to make 10+ sets of HP's, this year, send them out, and see how they fair with the conditions. Saltwater can be so harsh, and this is all new stuff, you just never know the outcome. So the best way is beach time, come next winter we will know.
I'm going to break the rules on this....I think the best set (matched or not) are the ones that give the hunter an advantage over the next Excalibur/Hunter. And it seems from beach testing, that you either have one setup that is great for PP hunting, fair to poor discriminate...then the other great for discriminate hunting, and ok for PP hunting....My thing is, thur field testing, mixing/matching, fine tuning, what works best will be it...
.......
I will throw out some thoughts and please correct my thinking when it is in error.
I have been reading up on speakers and amplifiers, it seems that the amplifier's output impedance should be ideally no more than 1/8 that of the speakers input impedance (known as the 1/8 rule). this eliminates distortion of the sound at maximum volume...
So how do we know/measure what the Excalibur's internal on board amp impedance is in order to pick the appropriate speaker Ohm rating?
If I understood what I read, this is an important aspect of getting the best sound from dynamic speakers. As it is, we are using trial and error, which isn't necessarily bad, ...but with the proper values trial and error might not be required.
If we assume that the higher Ohm speakers will provide the best sound, so those are the ones we need, then an external amplifier between the output of the Excalibur and the 150, 300 or 600 Ohm could be required and since placing speakers of the same impedance in parallel halves the impedance it would require a post amp capable of driving 150/2 =75, 300/2 = 150 and finally 600/2 = 300 Ohms impedance load.
The higher the speaker Ohms the higher the required driving voltage to get an acceptable volume. According to the Excalibur II manual, the specified Piezo speaker impedance is 8 Ohm from the factory. Perhaps what we need is a very high quality 8 Ohm dynamic speaker...
Help...anybody. Possibly this youtube video can shed some light. Please listen closely and give your opinion of his explanation.
Impedance
I have been reading up on speakers and amplifiers, it seems that the amplifier's output impedance should be ideally no more than 1/8 that of the speakers input impedance (known as the 1/8 rule). this eliminates distortion of the sound at maximum volume...
So how do we know/measure what the Excalibur's internal on board amp impedance is in order to pick the appropriate speaker Ohm rating?
If I understood what I read, this is an important aspect of getting the best sound from dynamic speakers. As it is, we are using trial and error, which isn't necessarily bad, ...but with the proper values trial and error might not be required.
If we assume that the higher Ohm speakers will provide the best sound, so those are the ones we need, then an external amplifier between the output of the Excalibur and the 150, 300 or 600 Ohm could be required and since placing speakers of the same impedance in parallel halves the impedance it would require a post amp capable of driving 150/2 =75, 300/2 = 150 and finally 600/2 = 300 Ohms impedance load.
The higher the speaker Ohms the higher the required driving voltage to get an acceptable volume. According to the Excalibur II manual, the specified Piezo speaker impedance is 8 Ohm from the factory. Perhaps what we need is a very high quality 8 Ohm dynamic speaker...
Help...anybody. Possibly this youtube video can shed some light. Please listen closely and give your opinion of his explanation.
Impedance
stumppass said:
dewcon4414
Well-known member
Joe when you say OK for PP...... is ok BETTER or as good as we currently get with the yellows? Wished the Xcal had a knob..... ya i know another knob, that turned off pitch hold and allowed us to adjust the threhold like on the Explorer.
Dew
Dew
Dew,
On your stock setup Excalbur, how far do you have to rotate the Threshold knob before you hear the Threshold signal?
On my Blue 800 and my Excal II 1000 I have to turn it about half way , and no matter how slowly I turn it down it is still difficult to get it set to barely audible on both machines. Seems they just overshoot the mark up or down. Like the potentiometers have a dead spot. I remember my Sovereign doing this but not to the extent the Excaliburs do. I don't know if the signal is there and so low I cannot hear it or if there's not a signal to be heard.
On your stock setup Excalbur, how far do you have to rotate the Threshold knob before you hear the Threshold signal?
On my Blue 800 and my Excal II 1000 I have to turn it about half way , and no matter how slowly I turn it down it is still difficult to get it set to barely audible on both machines. Seems they just overshoot the mark up or down. Like the potentiometers have a dead spot. I remember my Sovereign doing this but not to the extent the Excaliburs do. I don't know if the signal is there and so low I cannot hear it or if there's not a signal to be heard.
dewcon4414 said:
Critterhunter
New member
Tin Fin said:
I noticed his video didn't have that "round" sound to the Sonys either, but as said on my GT they sound much better. Less harsh. More smooth and mellow. And nickels have that distinct "round" sound to them for me.
Maybe it's that he said he was sweeping targets pretty close to the coil? Then again, could be the Excal/Sov differences, or might just be my computer speakers. Or, if I crank to full volume the Sonys kind of flatten out a bit as it seems to overwhelm them. Not sure if that's the case or if I'm just used to mostly hunting with the volume all the way down most of the time.
Only thing I can say is they are the best audio I've ever used on a detector, but one day I'll be picking up the Sunray Pro Golds as they are said to have very good audio, and I want the limiter and volume controls just in case. Every test I've done or testing on undug fringe depth targets in the field shows no depth difference with volume at lowest versus full in disc on my GT, but it does show a change in depth in PP with volume at full blast for sure.
OBN, when I'm on the right computer I'll get around to listening to the rest of the videos to see which I like best.
Critterhunter
New member
otlew said:
The next model "up" on those might still be made. They were the same speakers but with a coiled cable and a few other perks I guess. Don't know if they feature volume controls. I bet those same speakers are found in other more newer models now perhaps.
Got a 2nd pair of the MDR-V150s in the garage that I need to solder back together as I shortened the cord on them. Probably will use that pair when I get around to picking up the Plano waterproof $20 box to throw my control box into when water hunting. Don't think I'm going to use a clamshell but rather just Shoe Goo the headphone and coil cable holes on the box, since the 10" Tornado I never use on land anyway so don't need to be able to remove it quick.
The box is staying out of the water anyway on a back shaft extension I just snap onto the back end of the stock shaft with a two headed adjustment shaft pin. It's going to be at head height in normal hunting position so even at neck deep it's still out of the water for drag/float issues and also no risk of a leak.
That waterproof box is one of my winter projects, along with wiring a waterproof remote PP switch inside the bike end bar grip and stock shaft for a clean install like I did on my light weight land rig. I'll need to route the stereo cord through the Plano box waterproofed as well so I can unplug the GT from it like I do when removing the control box from my land shaft via a stereo jack I installed on the back of the GT.
A friend picked up a pair of the Sonys and went back to his stock headphones, so I can buy those off him down the road too. Mainly I like how they are about 1/3rd the size of standard headphones, yet not as small as Walkman style so they still drown out most of the outside noise. Less hot in the summer, very comfortable and light, and I can still hear just enough of what is going on around me to keep tabs on that. If I do pick up the Pro Golds probably they'll be used in winter and the Sonys in the heat of the summer.