Gold verses aluminum, via "Tony Diana" ear-training cd

[Electro]

Electro, I am analyzing what you have written, and would like to
Why not simply forgo that 30% (because it mimics too much junk items) and simply go get the other 60% out of the junky parks?? .... So since we all know the low conductors in a lot of junky parks have simply been left there for 30 or 40 yrs, why not simply skip the 30% of gold rings that don't cooperate, and go for that other 60%? I think the answer is: that there is no "60%", and there is no way to differentiate between aluminum and gold. .

One more key point is that Knowing that roughly 30% of gold rings sound like pulltabs.....is only half the math. The other half is that roughly 60+ % (my guess) of the aluminum/foil bits sound close to gold. There is no magic wand (including the CD) for aluminum. Weathered and worn can slaw and tabs still continue to be the achiilles heel of almost all detectors.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Electro, you say:

"There is no magic wand (including the CD) for aluminum. "

Well gee then, what do you say to the crowd who is adamant that it CAN be done? And they point to this VERY cd as proof, that some people (if they have the musician's ear, practice, etc...) CAN do it?

I say this in jest, of course, because I agree with you. What I always say to those who say it can be done, is to ask them if they can go to a junky park, and dig gold rings, while leaving most of the trash in the ground. Heck, even if the odds were 50 to 1, most of us would gladly dig 50 holes in the turf for a single gold ring, eh? But strangely, when you challenge anyone to show you how they can pass aluminum and dig gold, based on sounds, tones, etc.... they quietly slip away, and no one ever takes the challenge. Yet it perpetually comes up (even from some dealers who should know better) that there is a learnable difference. I just don't get it. Oh well.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

rarysgaard, pennies and bottle caps do indeed have a discernable difference from nearly every gold ring. Granted. This is because a) pennies come off the assembly line 100% the same size, weight, and alloys, each time. I suppose corroded zinc this would "go out the window" though. b) bottle caps contain iron, and thus, yes, will give a tell-tale beep.

But neither of those 2 target types tackles the question of aluminum VS gold. So in your opinion, after listening to the CD, is the author implying that there is a difference between aluminum and gold, if the student has a "musician's ear", and practices long and hard enough? Even to the point of ...... say ..... 50 to 1 odds ratio? Or what?

 

[erikk]

you say:

"a classical musician or someone with a similar recognition of audio would probably have no problem whatsoever ...."

Well then those with this level of hearing should logically go mine the parks for gold rings, without a moment's hesitation. But my hunch, is that no one (not even "classical musicians", etc....) can do it. To say that someone could, is to say that there is a difference between aluminum and gold (given the proper ear, and amount of learning). And that is the point of contention, is "Is there a difference on a given machine?".

If anyone can demonstrate that there is a learnable difference, then my challenge remains open: go to parks and show that it can be done. Certainly if anyone can actually do it, then why not do it?

Much more profitable to sell books & CD's to people thinking there is a magic bullet

 

[Electro]

you say:

"a classical musician or someone with a similar recognition of audio would probably have no problem whatsoever ...."

Well then those with this level of hearing should logically go mine the parks for gold rings, without a moment's hesitation. But my hunch, is that no one (not even "classical musicians", etc....) can do it. To say that someone could, is to say that there is a difference between aluminum and gold (given the proper ear, and amount of learning). And that is the point of contention, is "Is there a difference on a given machine?".

If anyone can demonstrate that there is a learnable difference, then my challenge remains open: go to parks and show that it can be done. Certainly if anyone can actually do it, then why not do it?

Much more profitable to sell books & CD's to people thinking there is a magic bullet

Ahh but the CD does not claim to be the magic bullet. Only a tool to help those learn their excal faster...and it teaches how to develop a more critical ear. That is the consistant disconnect. It is a simple learning tool often taken out of context

 

[Tom_in_CA]

you say:

"Ahh but the CD does not claim to be the magic bullet"

Why then, are many people who have listened to the CD, saying the CD shows it CAN be done then?

 

[Neil]

you say:

"Ahh but the CD does not claim to be the magic bullet"

Why then, are many people who have listened to the CD, saying the CD shows it CAN be done then?

Its an aid Tom and you know it. Sounds like your looking for the magic bullet and like erik says there isnt any but at least Tonys CD and Clives and Andys books are there to help people along. Bottom line is your gonna have to dig a target to see what it is. To much detecting is done between the ears anymore on these forums.

 

[Electro]

PM me your address and I will mail you my copy. Lol that is the only way to solve this...I don't listen to it much anymore anyway

 

[ToniSteve]

Electro wrote

"Ahh but the CD does not claim to be the magic bullet. Only a tool to help those learn their excal faster...and it teaches how to develop a more critical ear. That is the consistant disconnect. It is a simple learning tool often taken out of context"

 

[Neil in West Jersey]

I was out on Sunday in the surf with my Excalibur 1000. It is the first time I really worked in the surf with it. I have dug many many crown tops, and some sounded good (especially Corona tops). I have yet to dig gold jewelry with the Excal, although I have dug quite a bit with other detectors.

I got one signal on Sunday that I said to myself, this is a gold ring. It could not be a crown top. I could just tell. It was smoother and more "pure" with a tighter pinpoint than all the other crown tops I have dug. The problem was that the waves were pounding me pretty hard and I could not get it in my scoop off the soft sandy Jersey Shore bottom. After two or three attempts to recover it, it sank beyond the range of my detector, further leading me to believe that this was a dense gold ring. The one that got away!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Neil, not sure if you read what I wrote on this below, in this thread, but it's along these lines: There's a mental trick that we are all subject too, called "selective memory":

Anytime you or I go to dig something, we subconsciously are evaluating the targets pro's and con's, right? And when it comes up as junk, we say to ourselves "yeah, come to think of it, it *did* sound sort of junky" (remembering only our "con's" in our evaluations). But if it comes up to be a gold ring, we remember our "pro's" evaluations of "this sounds different" premonitions. And think "aha! I knew it!!"

Same thing in effect that makes us think our dreams at night come true: we all dream hundreds of dreams per night, of which we promptly forget them all, within minutes after waking up, right? But when that ONE dream coincidentally comes true (the song you dreamed about comes on the radio when you wake up), you THEN remember that one dream, and think, "aha! I'm psychic!". Just selective memory, and you've forgotten the other 100 dreams that didn't come true. If your target had turned out to be a worthless clip of a scuba mask, you'd have promptly forgotten the "this sounds different" premonition. Same trick that goes on in detecting, that makes us think that "gold sounds different".

If someone can show otherwise, that gold DOES INDEED sound different, then my challenge remains: take this "recipe" of sounds to the nearest blighted park, and pass even a simple majority of trash, while digging any amount of gold jewelry that exceeds random chance.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Will do Electro, thanx. I will study hard the claims he puts forth, and report back if it is indeed something he implies, or specifically DIS-claims, etc..... Because for some reason, people have listened to this cd, and claim he distinctly claims it can be done. Perhaps Tony never makes such claims in the CD (nor even implies it). I'll look forward to hearing the CD myself. thanx.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

" Its an aid Tom and you know it."

I don't "know it" (that someone else has or hasn't claimed it) without listening to what Tony claims. It looks like I'll be getting the CD, and will listen carefully to the claims. How they are worded, to see if it's ever claimed either explicitly, or by mere implication. I'll report back to the forumites afterwards, with verbatim quotes lifted, whenever anything of this subject is covered.

Because while you and I may know that it can't be done (yes I know), yet others are claiming it CAN be done. And citing this CD as their basis. We'll find out when I've dissected this, to see exactly what Tony is claiming.

 

[erikk]

I was out on Sunday in the surf with my Excalibur 1000. It is the first time I really worked in the surf with it. I have dug many many crown tops, and some sounded good (especially Corona tops). I have yet to dig gold jewelry with the Excal, although I have dug quite a bit with other detectors.

I got one signal on Sunday that I said to myself, this is a gold ring. It could not be a crown top. I could just tell. It was smoother and more "pure" with a tighter pinpoint than all the other crown tops I have dug. The problem was that the waves were pounding me pretty hard and I could not get it in my scoop off the soft sandy Jersey Shore bottom. After two or three attempts to recover it, it sank beyond the range of my detector, further leading me to believe that this was a dense gold ring. The one that got away!

or a piece of can slaw that fluttered away in the waves

 

[erikk]

you say:

"a classical musician or someone with a similar recognition of audio would probably have no problem whatsoever ...."

Well then those with this level of hearing should logically go mine the parks for gold rings, without a moment's hesitation. But my hunch, is that no one (not even "classical musicians", etc....) can do it. To say that someone could, is to say that there is a difference between aluminum and gold (given the proper ear, and amount of learning). And that is the point of contention, is "Is there a difference on a given machine?".

If anyone can demonstrate that there is a learnable difference, then my challenge remains open: go to parks and show that it can be done. Certainly if anyone can actually do it, then why not do it?

Much more profitable to sell books & CD's to people thinking there is a magic bullet

Ahh but the CD does not claim to be the magic bullet. Only a tool to help those learn their excal faster...and it teaches how to develop a more critical ear. That is the consistant disconnect. It is a simple learning tool often taken out of context

U want to learn your excal faster.....just dig every target or if you really like to excite yourself glue a nickel in your boot and hit it every once in a while and save $35.00

 

[Neil]

" Its an aid Tom and you know it."

I don't "know it" (that someone else has or hasn't claimed it) without listening to what Tony claims. It looks like I'll be getting the CD, and will listen carefully to the claims. How they are worded, to see if it's ever claimed either explicitly, or by mere implication. I'll report back to the forumites afterwards, with verbatim quotes lifted, whenever anything of this subject is covered.

Because while you and I may know that it can't be done (yes I know), yet others are claiming it CAN be done. And citing this CD as their basis. We'll find out when I've dissected this, to see exactly what Tony is claiming.

Tom I know Tony and Electro are correct, but I think digging is the only sure way to tell, just as outside noise, bad hearing, ground makeup, target depth, more than one target under the coil.....all effect the detectors response. I dont really care if you dissect this, or get back to this forum on your findings, but hope you do appreciate Electros kindness in offering you up his CD.

 

[Neil in West Jersey]

you say:

"a classical musician or someone with a similar recognition of audio would probably have no problem whatsoever ...."

Well then those with this level of hearing should logically go mine the parks for gold rings, without a moment's hesitation. But my hunch, is that no one (not even "classical musicians", etc....) can do it. To say that someone could, is to say that there is a difference between aluminum and gold (given the proper ear, and amount of learning). And that is the point of contention, is "Is there a difference on a given machine?".

If anyone can demonstrate that there is a learnable difference, then my challenge remains open: go to parks and show that it can be done. Certainly if anyone can actually do it, then why not do it?

Much more profitable to sell books & CD's to people thinking there is a magic bullet

Ahh but the CD does not claim to be the magic bullet. Only a tool to help those learn their excal faster...and it teaches how to develop a more critical ear. That is the consistant disconnect. It is a simple learning tool often taken out of context

U want to learn your excal faster.....just dig every target or if you really like to excite yourself glue a nickel in your boot and hit it every once in a while and save $35.00

I think this was a matter of bad digging technique rather than not knowing the Excal. And I am pretty sure this one sank rapidly in the soft sand, it did not flutter away in the waves.

 

[Electro]

Had a blast....After I started hitting wheat pennies I was very interested in the coin signals. Ended up with a silver ring, a 14k gold earring (Nice deep voice). Two Silver quarters (oldest date 1930) One silver merc dime and one silver rosie dime. Lots of wheat pennies. A couple of coins are crusty and I cannot tell yet. I dug an equal number of clad and and equal number of aluminum scraps that sounded too good to pass on (not pictured here). Very fun hunt with the Excal.

 

[targets]

if there are tones that are accurate on gold but they cant be heard because the user is tone deaf or has dodgy hearing why dont they have a voice synthesis that just says GOLD ,DIG HERE .such tones could be filtered and a speach mode spoken instead of a tone that you might not discern accurately

 

[Southwind]

Contrary to popular belief, a computer is far better at analyzing a target/sound than the human ear. How that computer reacts to the signal it analyzes is dependent on the software. What that means is that as detector software improves, the need for learning target sounds will become less important/obsolete. Some may argue we have already reached that point.