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Gold verses aluminum, via "Tony Diana" ear-training cd

Tom_in_CA

Active member
The discussion of a detector, or user's, ability to tell the difference between aluminum and gold, came up on another forum here. I, like most, will say that there is just too many infinate varieties, shapes, sizes, and wads of aluminum, and too many infinate varieites of gold rings/jewelry, to ever have a way to "tell aluminum apart from gold".

However, one hunter made reference to a CD put out by "Tony Diana" which purports to have lessons on the Excalibur, to do just that! Has anyone listened to this CD, and does it, in fact, claim that a person can ...... with proper audio learning ..... tell the difference between aluminum and gold? I suspect that it does not. Because if there WERE a way to tell the items apart (even with ample room for mistakes), then why isn't anyone simply going out to junky blighted urban parks, and digging gold rings this way? For 30+ yrs. now, let's face it, hunters have passed aluminum, tabs, and other such low conductors in turfed parks. So if a method could be had to tell aluminum apart from gold, why not simply apply it to un-harvested zones like this?

I have heard people say, over the years, that they figure there's tone differences, because after they dig a gold ring, they say to themselves "that sounded different". When in fact what I think is happening, is the psychological trick of "selective memory". That is: everytime we stop to dig, we think to ourselves "this sounds different". But when it turns out to be junk, we forget our premonitions, and say to ourselves "yeah, come to think of it, it *did* sound kinda junky" :rolleyes: But when we finally find a gold ring, we THEN remember our premonitions and say to ourselves "aha! I knew it!" It's the same trick where we sometimes think our dreams at night come true, like when you hear that song you dreamt about, on the radio, that happens to come on the radio when you wake up. But in fact we dream hundreds of dreams per night, none of which comes true, and we promptly forget them all. But when one finally coincidentally DOES come true, we remember the dream, and think "aha! I'm psychic!" I believe the thinking of gold sounding different than aluminum, is the same thing, subconsciously.

If anyone has listend to Tony's CD, and if it does purport to have a system to tell aluminum apart from gold, then do-tell: does anyone think they could take these audio tricks, go out to junky land sites, and simply pass up aluminum (even if only *most* aluminum) and hone in on gold rings?

In the past, anytime I hear someone make the claim that there is sound differences, I invite them to join me in a junky park and show this. So far, no takers, and the claimants slink away. But if this CD claims that there is such a way, please chime in and let me know to what extent it claims can be done, and why, if it's true, no one is using it in turfed parks, for instance.
 
I have not heard the CD , BUT i did do some testing with all kinds of aluminum and 7 difrent gold rings, and thear does seem to be a tone in the gold that never shows in the aluminum but in field i hear mor aluminum and cant really tell that is i do not find enugh gold rings to tell the difrence but for the most part no I can not tell the one gold ring i did find sounded like a can slaw,
 
Yes, there will always be a "difference" when a person sits down with a random sampling of gold rings (like the 7 you refer to, in your case) and a random sampling of aluminum wads, tabs, beaver tails, etc.... I don't doubt that. The problem is,.... SO TOO is there a "difference" between each and every gold ring, and other gold rings. And SO TOO is there a "difference" between each and every variation of aluminum blob, bent up tab, etc...

Kind of reminds me of when TID was first introduced in about 1983. A Teknetics dealer came to do a demo. at our club meeting, about that time, of the then-new technology. Imagine the shock of the audience when he waved a gold ring, and it gave a particular tone. Then he waves a nickel, and it gives yet another tone. Then he waves a pulltab, and it gives yet another tone! And so on, and so forth. You could see the dollar signs in the audience member's eyes! Several persons seeing this demo ran out and bought this new-fangled machine, thinking they were going to go dig gold rings till their arms fell off, while effortlessly passing tabs, nickels, foils, etc.... Afterall, you can't argue with a table demo. showing the distinct sound difference, now can you? Of course, harsh realities soon set in, for those who purchased them :rolleyes:
 
plus i did some discrimination tests and some of the gold rings got cut out with the pull tabs and at diffrent disq levals and it is possible for a tab to mask a ring so i just dig all but thats good if others want to not dig tabs then they leav the rings for me , i dont even use notch but i can say I would not trade my sovereign for any other detector no not an E track no not an fisher-F75 or any other it is just the cats meow.
 
My take on the audio tones between aluminium & gold is this: Agree with both of you that there is a clear difference in testing and yes its just about impossible to tell in practice without making big mistakes.

However a classical musician or someone with a similar recognition of audio would probably have no problem whatsoever. Each of us hears things differently - my hearing is excellent but it doesn't make it any easier with tonal variations. Maybe Tony Diana has a "classical ear" (or maybe two of them!). I am sure that there are a few out there with a wonderful tonal hearing capacity, but not many....
 
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?21,1467828,1467828#msg-1467828
and here
http://www.minelab.com/usa/treasure-talk/excalibur-a-metal-detector-with-its-own-distinct-personality
 
you say:

"a classical musician or someone with a similar recognition of audio would probably have no problem whatsoever ...."

Well then those with this level of hearing should logically go mine the parks for gold rings, without a moment's hesitation. But my hunch, is that no one (not even "classical musicians", etc....) can do it. To say that someone could, is to say that there is a difference between aluminum and gold (given the proper ear, and amount of learning). And that is the point of contention, is "Is there a difference on a given machine?".

If anyone can demonstrate that there is a learnable difference, then my challenge remains open: go to parks and show that it can be done. Certainly if anyone can actually do it, then why not do it?
 
Clive James Clynick does an excellent job explaining the difference in the sound of gold from other metals you might encounter while detecting with the Excallibur. There are a few on this and other forums that consistantly find gold. Not every day but a few hunters find find more gold than all the others. And they are hunting in places where there is a lot more gold than parks. Sure people find gold in parks I myself have but I have found more in the Tot Lots that are in the parks than in the parks themselves. Machines are different also even all E-Tracs and Excalls do not sound identical when hunted side by side with each other. I wish I could with out a doubt tell the difference between gold and aluminum tabs but I have not gotten there yet. But reading the finds of some of these guy's assures me there is a difference. Anyone that has not read CJC's books on Advanced Methods of Finding Gold with the Minelab Excallibur should try and read them. HH :minelab:
 
Tom_in_CA said:
The discussion of a detector, or user's, ability to tell the difference between aluminum and gold, came up on another forum here. I, like most, will say that there is just too many infinate varieties, shapes, sizes, and wads of aluminum, and too many infinate varieites of gold rings/jewelry, to ever have a way to "tell aluminum apart from gold".

However, one hunter made reference to a CD put out by "Tony Diana" which purports to have lessons on the Excalibur, to do just that! Has anyone listened to this CD, and does it, in fact, claim that a person can ...... with proper audio learning ..... tell the difference between aluminum and gold? I suspect that it does not. Because if there WERE a way to tell the items apart (even with ample room for mistakes), then why isn't anyone simply going out to junky blighted urban parks, and digging gold rings this way? For 30+ yrs. now, let's face it, hunters have passed aluminum, tabs, and other such low conductors in turfed parks. So if a method could be had to tell aluminum apart from gold, why not simply apply it to un-harvested zones like one is using it in turfed parks, for instance.

The CD does not purport to teach an absolute diifference between gold and aluminum. In fact the author claims that this is the toughest difference to ascertain and thus it is a dangerous thing to pass on aluminum signals. Aluminum pulltab rings often have pronounced mid signals and thus can be recognizible in areas where they occur often. But about 30% of gold rings do not have the deep classic gold sound. This 30% is referred to as anomoly gold. Anomoly gold sounds like pulltabs. So everytime you skip a pulltab you are at risk of missing an anomoly gold ring. I would never skip a pulltab signal in the water. But I might risk skipping them in a drysand trashy area after digging several first. Bottlecaps are easy to recognize. Silver is somewhat easy unless you have tired ears. All the CD does is to recognize how sounds trend and to point out the percentages. Note some people do have studio ears or perfect pitch and this really is a big advantage. There are some musicians that can tune their instruments by listening to the hum of flouresent lights. Most people cannot hear this hum. A big hint that you should dig everything is if your spouse often yells at you to turn down the television. A friend has the CD and he said he could not hear any difference between any of the "damn signals". His wife who happened to be listening politely told him she heard all the difference pointed out on the CD. He then realized for the first time he had a small degree of hearing loss. Everything is relative. The bottom line is that however you choose to use it...The Excal is a wonderful detector!
 
hershey1 said:
Clive James Clynick does an excellent job explaining the difference in the sound of gold from other metals you might encounter while detecting with the Excallibur. There are a few on this and other forums that consistantly find gold. Not every day but a few hunters find find more gold than all the others. And they are hunting in places where there is a lot more gold than parks. Sure people find gold in parks I myself have but I have found more in the Tot Lots that are in the parks than in the parks themselves. Machines are different also even all E-Tracs and Excalls do not sound identical when hunted side by side with each other. I wish I could with out a doubt tell the difference between gold and aluminum tabs but I have not gotten there yet. But reading the finds of some of these guy's assures me there is a difference. Anyone that has not read CJC's books on Advanced Methods of Finding Gold with the Minelab Excallibur should try and read them. HH :minelab:

The reason for this is simple: there is no hocus pocus to people who find more gold than others... They hunt longer, harder and DIG EVERY TARGET. You can apply all the scientific explanations to the subject that you want & It may sell books but when you get out in the real world, in the surf, surrounded by can slaw and other trash thinking you can discriminate by sounds is not going to happen. Sure you can tell SOME bottle caps and SOME slaw but start to think you can do it consistently is going to cost you gold. It also helps to be lucky because the ocean is a very big place
 
I too was going to say that Erik stole the words out of my mouth. When I read what hershey wrote, I was thinking the same thing: that those people who "consistently find more gold", have not necessarily "figured out gold vs aluminum", but rather:

a) they hunt in areas that are more condusive to jewelry losses, to begin with. Wet beach swim zones, for instance, and not junky parks.

b) they hunt longer, harder, and dig all the low conductors. Again, not a function of saying "they can tell aluminum apart from gold".
 
Electro, I am analyzing what you have written, and would like to hone in:

1) "...... [pulltab rings]can be recognizible in areas where they occur often" Well, yes. And that would be something akin to "ring enhancement" programming (whether via mental/audio, or via the TID cross-hairs) that is nothing new. I mean, sure: if you have a commonly recurring size and shape of tab at a particular site, that is abundant (because perhaps a snack vendor concessionaire sold the same brand type soda there for 30 yrs, that all had the same size/shape tab off the cans he sold), then yes, you can eliminate *just* that one sound, shape, size, etc... and save yourself a lot of grief. And yes, perhaps that exact TID/audio would only account for 5 or 10% of any known gold ring TID's, thus you have merely played the odds, and rejected a commonly recurring junk item. But in no way is this "telling aluminum apart from gold". It is merely playing Las Vegas odds on a commonly recurring junk item, that is consistent from the factory (round unbroken standard size tabs, in this case).

2) "But about 30% of gold rings do not have the deep classic gold sound. " By this statement, I assume you (and perhaps the author of the CD?) are saying that the other 60% does have a classic "gold sound"? Then let me ask you a question: Why not simply forgo that 30% (because it mimics too much junk items) and simply go get the other 60% out of the junky parks?? I mean, let's face it: we all know that if gold rings are our goal, time is simply better spent going to swimming beaches, where jewelry losses are more condusive (cool water, suntan lotion, frolicking motion, and of course, easier to dig in sand), rather than turf, to begin with, right? Hence junky parks have, for decades, simply been avoided as location to try to "be a hero" and get gold rings, right? That's why it's not unusual for md'rs to angle for deep silver and copper coins in junky parks, and skip the shallow foil, tabs, etc... (and .... gasp .... gold rings). So since we all know the low conductors in a lot of junky parks have simply been left there for 30 or 40 yrs, why not simply skip the 30% of gold rings that don't cooperate, and go for that other 60%? I think the answer is: that there is no "60%", and there is no way to differentiate between aluminum and gold. JMHO. If I'm wrong, then I say again: I'm waiting for the day that anyone, with any machine, can go to a junky park, and show the world that it can be done.
 
I agree with your point # 1. The Excalibur does however give the user more aural information than most other detectors. So if you are finding lots of the same targets i.e. pennies in miami beach or bottle caps in old swimming holes...it is easy to eliminate these for two reasons. 1. With the excalibur pennys tend to sound like pennys and bottlecaps tend to sound like bottlecaps. 2. Bottle caps and Pennys tend to not sound like gold (yes Exceptions are deep pennys and crusty beach pennys). I agree it is playing the odds and the better you can master your detector the better you can play the cards. The Excal and the Sov have a very loyal folowing because they are fun to hunt with and give alot of good target feedback. But there are folks out there who know their Tesoros inside out or even their pulse machines and they can cherry pick based on that intimate familiarity. So to your point you can sometimes eliminate some targets because they sound like each other (as opposed to not sounding like gold)

I think the premise of your second point is that is impossible to consistantly distinguish gold from aluminum. The Trashy Park is pretty much the worst case nightmare scenario. Gum wrappers, bits of foil, canslaw from the lawnmowers all tend to sound very good on an excalibur. When I hunt with my Excal I thus do not think, "is this signal gold or is it aluminum?". I hunt with the attitude is this an interesting/higher probability signal or not? But sometimes with the Excal I hit a signal that is so clean and rumbling that I think "Wow I think i have a gold ring here!". Even then I still dig aluminum half the time although it was the sweet tone I was looking for. So if I were to take your challenge I would still dig a crazy amount of aluminum by cherrypicking the low tones first. if there were gold rings there in the first place and I cherry picked tones I would have better odds of hitting the gold...but..you throw in the good sounding aluminum signals and i am suddenly bogged down again.

Now I have given myself that same challenge in an old swimming hole with thousands of bottlecaps and about 10% pulltab signals. I did clean up there and the gold signals screamed "dig me". on the Excal. The same thing happened when hunting with a buddy after a storm. He was using a single tone machine that was new to him and digging all signals and quickly was bogged with all the bits of Iron. I think most beach hunters myself included tend to lean towards diigging all the signals unless we run into situations where it makes more sense to skip the time bandit and move on.

One last thing...There are some people out there with wickedly good hearing that can hear things that I cannot. So if someone says they can hear the difference they may be one of these gifted people. I think most of us are going to just say, "that sounds good I am digging it". Note that people who are migraneurs have brains that are more sensitive to change and thus often better senses. Typically these people are more sensitve to smell, or noise or sunlight or barometric pressure. It is the reason why you see the "no perfume allowed" signs in doctors offices!

So please excuse my long winded answer but this subject is very interesting and always alot of fun to discuss!
 
I agree with all of these but I would add:

C. They hunt more effectively than typical hunters:
-This includes knowing when to hunt and when to walk away and look for a better beach
-Knowing the historical hot spots of their beaches
-Being intimately familiar with their machines and knowing how to squeeze the best possible performance from them based on conditions
-etc, etc
 
i have the CD and it has and still helps me before a hunt to get my ears and brains in tune for a hunt..as to distinguish between aluminum and gold, well gold does have that tone that will stand out nice and loudly when you hit hit, with my excal 2 i can hear a bit of difference, but when gold is there you know it,alum does come close and will cause me to dig it too for the just in case..Ive hunted many times with tony and he has seen me pull some nice gold rings out of the wet sand,when in doubt you need to dig target...then talk about it later about the if i did or if i didn't..
hh
john
 
Electro said:
I agree with all of these but I would add:

C. They hunt more effectively than typical hunters:
-This includes knowing when to hunt and when to walk away and look for a better beach
-Knowing the historical hot spots of their beaches
-Being intimately familiar with their machines and knowing how to squeeze the best possible performance from them based on conditions
-etc, etc

How can you tell of one beach is better than others? It only takes a second and 1 square inch to hit or miss as ring. You leave you lose. If there is a method I would love to hear it. Been water hunting for almost 50 years and haven't figured it out yet :)
 
Well, I don't know what beaches he's referring to, but as for ocean beaches, when we're talking the wet sand, you can start to "read" them after a lot of years, to know when the sand is going out, or coming in. And you can also guage by the weight of targets sometimes, so that if you get a predominance of zinc pennies (light) and almost no quarters (heavy) then it stands to reason that you're in a zone where mother nature left a lot of light stuff (hence less odds a dense heavy gold).

As for lake beaches, I suppose a person can "read" where people swim and frolick more, the junk ratios they're starting to run into, etc....
 
I have the cd and you can tell the subtle differences if you listen real hard, but it is training you to distinguish bottle caps and pennies etc. Silver dimes from clad. I listened to the the cd and then attempted to use it with my excaliber, the problem was my excaliber did not give me clear sounding tones like on the cd. I too have read cjc's book many times and his latest talks about some incredible headphones manufactured by a person known as Goldmaster. I am going to invest in them, because my stock headphones do not give the sounds which cjc describes when he talks about investigating and evaluating subtle differences in targets.He states that the differences in clarity is unbelievable.I will let you know how they work when I get them and have a chance to test them out.
 
On the east coast of Florida and the treasure coast the old timers will often walk on the beach while leaving the detector in the car. They take a quick recon and can tell when the conditions are sanded in. It is almost like walking in snow. When the conditions are bad they do not hesitate to keep driving to another beach. Also when you know a beach well you know what signs to look for. When you are in Daytona Beach in front of the bandshell and you can see the wooden pilons from the 1930's you have great conditions. When you are in Vero Beach you can look at the sand covering the drainage pipe. Any beach that has a pier you can look at the pier pilons and see how high the sand is. One of the most successful hunters I have ever met Gary Drayton has an uncanny knack for walking a beach and walking away from it because he knows the conditions are not good. I believe he talks about this in his book.
 
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