Critterhunter
New member
EZrider said:
Ron from Michigan said:
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From Fisher CZ to Minelab Sovereign
- Thread starter straker
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Critterhunter
New member
I personaly attribute any improvement in unmasking ability of the Etrac to the Pro Coil more than I do any of the electronics. Stick one of the old 10" Explorer coils on the Etrac and I bet you'll see a difference. Those were terrible coils. One of the reasons they were so hard to pinpoint with was because of the sloppy magnetic field they generated, which also made seperation more of a pain with them. Thank god the 10" Tornado is a much better coil than those were.
You're right, you can't find what you can't see...And there in lies the real deciding factor when it comes to unmasking ability or more to the point recovery speed. The coil first has to be able to see the target in order for the machine to. The Pro Coil has made it easier for the Etrac to see distinctly between two targets without as much work IMHO. Not that it can't be done with say the 10" Tornado, but that it takes more effort. Like I've said a thousand times before, the 12x10 makes it much easier or should I say more effortless for the Sovereign to seperate targets. That's due to it's more sharpened and well defined detection field IMO.
Just the same, use the stock 10" Tornado and lay a dime on the ground with a big rusty old nail laying right next to it so close that they are touching. You can isolate the coin from the nail with no problem so long as you know how to use the coil. You can't get any closer than that for seperation or unmasking ability. The 12x10 makes this even more effortless. The edge of the detection line it generates is much sharper for laser like reaction between targets. Can the Sovereign be swung fast and still seperate targets. Nope, it can't. You have to slow down and work the coil around targets. That's just the way it goes, but with proper sweep speed and coil use recovery speed or unmasking ability is a non-issue. As I've said before, I prefer a slow recovery speed because I feel it grabs onto and holds deep targets better than a fast reseting machine does. I can address the recovery speed issue between targets by using the coil properly.
You're right, you can't find what you can't see...And there in lies the real deciding factor when it comes to unmasking ability or more to the point recovery speed. The coil first has to be able to see the target in order for the machine to. The Pro Coil has made it easier for the Etrac to see distinctly between two targets without as much work IMHO. Not that it can't be done with say the 10" Tornado, but that it takes more effort. Like I've said a thousand times before, the 12x10 makes it much easier or should I say more effortless for the Sovereign to seperate targets. That's due to it's more sharpened and well defined detection field IMO.
Just the same, use the stock 10" Tornado and lay a dime on the ground with a big rusty old nail laying right next to it so close that they are touching. You can isolate the coin from the nail with no problem so long as you know how to use the coil. You can't get any closer than that for seperation or unmasking ability. The 12x10 makes this even more effortless. The edge of the detection line it generates is much sharper for laser like reaction between targets. Can the Sovereign be swung fast and still seperate targets. Nope, it can't. You have to slow down and work the coil around targets. That's just the way it goes, but with proper sweep speed and coil use recovery speed or unmasking ability is a non-issue. As I've said before, I prefer a slow recovery speed because I feel it grabs onto and holds deep targets better than a fast reseting machine does. I can address the recovery speed issue between targets by using the coil properly.
Yes Jim the E -Trac is a great detector too and I do have one with 5 different coils to try out myself and for others around here too see which will benefit us the most. I am getting to like my E-Trac the more I use it, but still don't have the confidence in it like the Sovereigns, I am sure by using it I will get more confidence in it and probably be my main detector, but I will still have at least one Sovereign around with a 180 meter and a S-1 probe on it.
On the E-Trac I hunt in Quick Mask set at 22 ferrous, 9 conductivity, auto sensitivity at a +3 (first detector I like the auto sensitivity as this one works) both fast and deep off, difficult ground on and my response pitch hold to help hear those weaker signals. I find on any iffy signals I can change my quick mask to easy to check out any signal. I also run the multi tones and listen to the tones first and how they respond before looking at the meter, then it is conductivity first then the ferrous before i decide to dig. Because of health issues I was only able to use it once this past year and the GT 2 times, so i hope by spring I can make it up this year, I know my wife does as she loves detecting too and my best hunting Buddie.
On the E-Trac I hunt in Quick Mask set at 22 ferrous, 9 conductivity, auto sensitivity at a +3 (first detector I like the auto sensitivity as this one works) both fast and deep off, difficult ground on and my response pitch hold to help hear those weaker signals. I find on any iffy signals I can change my quick mask to easy to check out any signal. I also run the multi tones and listen to the tones first and how they respond before looking at the meter, then it is conductivity first then the ferrous before i decide to dig. Because of health issues I was only able to use it once this past year and the GT 2 times, so i hope by spring I can make it up this year, I know my wife does as she loves detecting too and my best hunting Buddie.
Critterhunter
New member
That test wasn't exactly apples to apples, either...being that the Fisher was using a larger coil."
The Excal or Sovereign come with a 10" coil.
EZrider said:
synthnut said:
The Excal or Sovereign come with a 10" coil.
Critterhunter
New member
(In relation to a masked target)
Earlier you said this...
So you complain about "wiggles and waggles" on some masked targets but have no problem having to use careful control and overlap your sweeps all the time while using the CZ? I just thought that was an interesting contrast in what you are willing to put up with.
synthnut said:
Earlier you said this...
synthnut said:
So you complain about "wiggles and waggles" on some masked targets but have no problem having to use careful control and overlap your sweeps all the time while using the CZ? I just thought that was an interesting contrast in what you are willing to put up with.
"The detector that gives me the most confidence is the (insert the name of the detector of choice for you)".
A lot of us have more than one unit and we always use one for a bit, than another ( at least I do ), but there is always that go to unit that seems to just find more and find the better targets the majority of the time. It may be that we just know it the best, it 'talks' to us in a way we understand, the tones/sounds give off more info on a target, or it's just luckier than all the others.
Whatever the case, that unit will always be number one.
A lot of us have more than one unit and we always use one for a bit, than another ( at least I do ), but there is always that go to unit that seems to just find more and find the better targets the majority of the time. It may be that we just know it the best, it 'talks' to us in a way we understand, the tones/sounds give off more info on a target, or it's just luckier than all the others.
Whatever the case, that unit will always be number one.
YOu seem to forget that I still have a couple of Sovereigns, and an Excal .......I know all too well what I have to go thru to try to coax a tough tone from my Sovereign when the tone is being masked , and sometimes I STILL don't get it ....... I don't have to overlap at all using the ETrac which is the machine I use in the dirt .......When it comes to overlaping using the CZ on the beach which is where I will be using it , we are talking the same area that I would overlap if I were using an 8 inch coil ...... Not so bad considering the additional depth that I will get ..... Better yet , let's do this ....
Take a gold ring approx 7.5 grams , and bury it in just 12 inches of wet salt sand , and let's hear the Soveriegn GT ring out loud and clear wtih repeatable tone from every wave of the coil ....... I'd be really interested to hear it ......Oh , that's right , you don't live near a salt water beach ..... This now leaves me wondering how it is that you know what your Soveriegn will do at the beach ? ....How do you know how your Soveriegn will react in wet salt sand ? ...... Next time I go to the beach , I will do it for you ...... This way you can see it for yourself ..... Again, we have a case of me speaking about things that I have experienced , where you are speaking of what you have heard ..... Please do me a favor .....When you speak of something that you have HEARD about , please let us know .......In the same token , when you KNOW of what you speak from experience , let us know that also .....
When you hear me, or EZrider, or OldBeechnut , speak about our findings , we have video to back it up ......We are right there showing you exactly what we have found ......We KNOW of what we speak because we are right there ..... There is a big difference between what you HEARD on a forum , and what you actually EXPERIENCED ...... There are plenty of experiences that you have had over the years wtth your Sovereign .......I am always glad to hear about them because I know that you were right there experiencing these findings .......
The Sovereign is a great machine that auto tracks so you don't have to deal with GB'ing all the time ....It has a DD coil that has more coverage ...... It can hande wet salt sand without issue ..... I don't deny any of these things ....... If you're happy with your machine and feel comfortable with it , God Bless You !!........ Jim
Take a gold ring approx 7.5 grams , and bury it in just 12 inches of wet salt sand , and let's hear the Soveriegn GT ring out loud and clear wtih repeatable tone from every wave of the coil ....... I'd be really interested to hear it ......Oh , that's right , you don't live near a salt water beach ..... This now leaves me wondering how it is that you know what your Soveriegn will do at the beach ? ....How do you know how your Soveriegn will react in wet salt sand ? ...... Next time I go to the beach , I will do it for you ...... This way you can see it for yourself ..... Again, we have a case of me speaking about things that I have experienced , where you are speaking of what you have heard ..... Please do me a favor .....When you speak of something that you have HEARD about , please let us know .......In the same token , when you KNOW of what you speak from experience , let us know that also .....
When you hear me, or EZrider, or OldBeechnut , speak about our findings , we have video to back it up ......We are right there showing you exactly what we have found ......We KNOW of what we speak because we are right there ..... There is a big difference between what you HEARD on a forum , and what you actually EXPERIENCED ...... There are plenty of experiences that you have had over the years wtth your Sovereign .......I am always glad to hear about them because I know that you were right there experiencing these findings .......
The Sovereign is a great machine that auto tracks so you don't have to deal with GB'ing all the time ....It has a DD coil that has more coverage ...... It can hande wet salt sand without issue ..... I don't deny any of these things ....... If you're happy with your machine and feel comfortable with it , God Bless You !!........ Jim
I would think regardless of how many times you have to wiggle and waggle, you are ALWAYS using good coil control and overlapping your sweeps.
Just because a unit has a DD coil on it, does not mean one should not be concerned about coil control and overlaps. Even with a DD, a hunter SHOULD hit an area where there are nulls and targets, from a multitude of angles with precise coil control and overlap.
Coil control and overlap will FIND the targets (both ferrous and non-ferrous). Wiggles and waggles will coax some non-ferrous targets out of the nulls.
If you can't find the targets, no amount of wiggling and waggling will help you.
Just because a unit has a DD coil on it, does not mean one should not be concerned about coil control and overlaps. Even with a DD, a hunter SHOULD hit an area where there are nulls and targets, from a multitude of angles with precise coil control and overlap.
Coil control and overlap will FIND the targets (both ferrous and non-ferrous). Wiggles and waggles will coax some non-ferrous targets out of the nulls.
If you can't find the targets, no amount of wiggling and waggling will help you.
therover,
The reason I menton wiggles and waggles is that I have spent a LOT of extra time on targets that I have run across with the Soveriegn or Excal .....Some panned out , and some didn't .....I find that with other machines , I have a much easier time finding targets ......Since the CZ has a Concentric coil which I'm sure you know , you have to overlap your sweeps a little bit closer than you would a DD coil ...... However you do get rewarded with some deeper targets ......I can continue to move with the CZ where I am continuously checking targets with my Sovereigns .... The more distance I cover, the better my chances of finding good targets ..... I find that for me anyway , I get a more clear cut tone from the CZ and don't have to constantly listen to threshold .... It's ,more or less a mid tone beep and then I dig ....unless the target is deep in which case I will dig just about everything except cans ..... When running in dirt and littered parks , I don't have to deal with as much masking because I run an E Trac and can discriminate out most of what I don't need to hear .....So this being said , I find the E Trac my detector of choise for the dirt , and the CZ for the beach ......Folks can use what they want , and everyone has their own preference ..... If someone is going to tell me that their machine is better than mine and deeper than mine , I would like to see some proof of this ..... Anybody can make an aqusation about how deep ANY machine is .....I could say that my brothers Silver uMax goes 12 inches down in the wet salt sand ......If people are going to make comments , they should be able to back them up .... JIm
The reason I menton wiggles and waggles is that I have spent a LOT of extra time on targets that I have run across with the Soveriegn or Excal .....Some panned out , and some didn't .....I find that with other machines , I have a much easier time finding targets ......Since the CZ has a Concentric coil which I'm sure you know , you have to overlap your sweeps a little bit closer than you would a DD coil ...... However you do get rewarded with some deeper targets ......I can continue to move with the CZ where I am continuously checking targets with my Sovereigns .... The more distance I cover, the better my chances of finding good targets ..... I find that for me anyway , I get a more clear cut tone from the CZ and don't have to constantly listen to threshold .... It's ,more or less a mid tone beep and then I dig ....unless the target is deep in which case I will dig just about everything except cans ..... When running in dirt and littered parks , I don't have to deal with as much masking because I run an E Trac and can discriminate out most of what I don't need to hear .....So this being said , I find the E Trac my detector of choise for the dirt , and the CZ for the beach ......Folks can use what they want , and everyone has their own preference ..... If someone is going to tell me that their machine is better than mine and deeper than mine , I would like to see some proof of this ..... Anybody can make an aqusation about how deep ANY machine is .....I could say that my brothers Silver uMax goes 12 inches down in the wet salt sand ......If people are going to make comments , they should be able to back them up .... JIm
The CZ is not a wiggle/waggle machine. It's pretty much sweep and if it's repeatable from a few angles, dig it.
I used both a Sov GT and my CZ6a at the beach yesterday. Sov had the 10 inch coil, CZ6a the 8 inch. Found targets with both of them. The thing with the Sov Gt, for me is, I have not had enough time on it. I have to get used to the threshold and how the unit tells me it's running hot. I chased a few ghosts with it yesterday where I never do with my CZ. It's only because I know the false signals the CZ is giving me and can run it hot, whereas with the Sov GT, I can't right now. My hunting partner Matt uses his GT almost exclusively with the 10x12 and 12x15 SEF coils and does very, very well with it. He tried a CZ21 with an 8 inch coil and you should have seen the look on his face when he was using it. Since he is so used to threshold based units and his Minelabs with the bigger coils, he sold it to Dig ! I think he had exactly 10 minutes of use time on that thing.
I think above all else, the main difference is the silent search vs threshold based between the CZ and GT. If a person has been using one or the other for a very long time, it is hard to switch and feel comfortable right away. It takes time. I know there is a silent search option on the GT, but I think that defeats the purpose and running it that way is not optimal on the GT.
The fainter threshold breaking targets were only on fringe and small targets. The GT clearly hit hard ( ie, definitive tone) on coins and such...it was small pieces of aluminum, fishing swivels, etc. that I dug that sometimes gave the same sound as a false, which made me dig a few ghosts. I also think there may have been either really deep iron or the salinity of the water making the unit act that way in addition to me running the sensitivity higher than I should have.
Hopefully the next time there is another Jersey shore film session, I can be there with a few other units. One thing I would love to do, is find targets in the wet sand ( whatever they may be), mark them, and have other units go over them and see what they ID as or what we think the target will be prior to it being dug up. Especially deep targets on the fringe. It's pretty easy to guess a 3 inch nickel or 5 inch quarter. It's the 12 inch+, lower conductive targets that we are after, ie bigger gold rings, as well as the smaller gold in the 5-8 inch range, and it would be interesting to see how different the units sound off on them.
I used both a Sov GT and my CZ6a at the beach yesterday. Sov had the 10 inch coil, CZ6a the 8 inch. Found targets with both of them. The thing with the Sov Gt, for me is, I have not had enough time on it. I have to get used to the threshold and how the unit tells me it's running hot. I chased a few ghosts with it yesterday where I never do with my CZ. It's only because I know the false signals the CZ is giving me and can run it hot, whereas with the Sov GT, I can't right now. My hunting partner Matt uses his GT almost exclusively with the 10x12 and 12x15 SEF coils and does very, very well with it. He tried a CZ21 with an 8 inch coil and you should have seen the look on his face when he was using it. Since he is so used to threshold based units and his Minelabs with the bigger coils, he sold it to Dig ! I think he had exactly 10 minutes of use time on that thing.
I think above all else, the main difference is the silent search vs threshold based between the CZ and GT. If a person has been using one or the other for a very long time, it is hard to switch and feel comfortable right away. It takes time. I know there is a silent search option on the GT, but I think that defeats the purpose and running it that way is not optimal on the GT.
The fainter threshold breaking targets were only on fringe and small targets. The GT clearly hit hard ( ie, definitive tone) on coins and such...it was small pieces of aluminum, fishing swivels, etc. that I dug that sometimes gave the same sound as a false, which made me dig a few ghosts. I also think there may have been either really deep iron or the salinity of the water making the unit act that way in addition to me running the sensitivity higher than I should have.
Hopefully the next time there is another Jersey shore film session, I can be there with a few other units. One thing I would love to do, is find targets in the wet sand ( whatever they may be), mark them, and have other units go over them and see what they ID as or what we think the target will be prior to it being dug up. Especially deep targets on the fringe. It's pretty easy to guess a 3 inch nickel or 5 inch quarter. It's the 12 inch+, lower conductive targets that we are after, ie bigger gold rings, as well as the smaller gold in the 5-8 inch range, and it would be interesting to see how different the units sound off on them.
OldBeechnut
Well-known member
Rover said:
That sounds good, I think with the weather a bit warmer and maybe I can get some one to operate a couple camaras, things might be a little easier and I can think a little less congested. Funny we had a excalibur II just standing there, and we did not include it. I do like the way EZ would talk about what he was adjusting on his machine as he did the test. And I do like the Idea of one hunter finding a target, marking it..then the next coming along to check...Now all we need is about 7 or 8 headcams to record the action. I am going to post the video over on the CZ forum this week because I do have several questions on the CZ21/20. Over all I learned alot and still learning just being able to study all the video I took. Looking forwards to another hookup with some great hunters....If anyone is unhappy with the results..be there next time...And one thing else, Big coils are tuff in AC.........Tell matt to fire up that big coil..........
Well, I have to say this was an interesting discussion to follow. A lot of points were made in various directions. One thing I remember from a totally different subject - A friend of mine and I were talking about shotguns - and this oldtimer, listening to all these younger folk talking about various models of shotguns, how fast they could shoot, and what they cost; this oldtimes speaks up and says "the best shotgun there is to have, is the one that's in your hands" - and he proceded to demonstrate a single shot shotgun, manually loading his cartriges faster than most of these guys could operate a pump action.... he made his point. I think the point is similar. There are differences in each make/model, even individual machines within a given line if it was made on Monday or Thursday.... But learning the machine you have is key; sometimes, not being able to hear the target, is just a matter of recognizing what the sound is; not that it wasn't there before, but that I didn't know that it meant something.
Still, was good conversation to follow.
Still, was good conversation to follow.
Critterhunter
New member
What Bill Myers off of KellyCo has to say about the GT
Critterhunter
New member
Ooops...Meant to post this in the thread I wrote about why a slow recovery speed is a good thing to me, but just the same....