From Fisher CZ to Minelab Sovereign

[synthnut]

I'm told that hunting in Autotune while not as deep , allows for a much wider area of coverage as mpt to have to deal with the smaller cone like area syndrome ......

Ron,
Not sure what it is that you're saying to me .....?????.......Please explain .....Jim


Critter ,
I would bet money that this CZ with the stock 10 1/2 inch coil will better ANY SOVEREIGN wth the Stock 10 inch coil in a depth test with a pre measured hole with the same ring , and hit it with a repeatable signal !!......Any takers ? ......Jim

BTW ....This CZ hit the ring with a proper gold tone ( mid tone on a CZ ) up to 12 inches in the ground ......The 13 inch measurement did not hit a solid MID tone however it was VERY repeatable in every direction .....Same with the 15 inch mark ...... Jim

 

[synthnut]

I think you guys are probably thinking that the coverage on the bottom of the concentric coil is the size of a pea or something ......While It's not as big an area of a DD coil , there is still enoough coverage to get the job done .....I would rather have the depth than the overall coverage .....I can always overlap ......The modded Excal in pinpoint mode , had the DD coil and missed the 15 inxh ring altogether .......The CZ bone stock with the cone shaped area hit the ring with a strong repeatable tone .....Which one are you better off with ? ........ Careful control of the concentric coil will be what I will be hunting with next time .....Jim

 

[Neil]

Hey Jim I prefer the DD coverage myself and just the way in sees in the ground, one of the reasons Im not hunting them anymore(CZs)
When you reference your CZ as bone stock I didnt know they can be modded? I have a Sov that has the dixie mods, does David do the CZs as well? or is it someone else?
Ive tried copying some of the text/info off of dankowskis forum but for some reason it doesnt work well for me. he has some great info about how all detectors are bound by physics and talks about the etrac and masking, great reading if you get a chance have a look(if you havent already).

 

[synthnut]

Hi Neil ,
The CZ is not modded at all ....The reason I mention " bone stock " is that the CZ is just the way it comes out of the factory ......Nothing more ..... Not sure why the CZ that hit the ring at 15 inches is such a deep machine .....Will let you know after we do tests with it , and my 6a and see what's what ...I do understand you wanting to hunt with a DD coil rather than a concentric coil ..... So would I , but hitting a ring at 15 inches is hard to pass up no matter what coil is used ....... As I said , I would LOVE to run a DD coil , but CZ's are not made to run DD coils , or I"m sure they would have been used by now .....I'm glad that everyone is happy with the Sovereign and Excals and wish you all the luck with them ..... They're not a bad machine at all ....Jim

 

[therover]

Doesn't the 10.5 inch CZ coil give off a slightly different detection pattern than the 8 inch coil and have a bit wider detection area ? I think I read somewhere that the 10.5 design is a bit different and actually better with targets on edge than a standard concentric design.

Maybe the ring was slightly on edge too !

 

[Neil]

Doesn't the 10.5 inch CZ coil give off a slightly different detection pattern than the 8 inch coil and have a bit wider detection area ? I think I read somewhere that the 10.5 design is a bit different and actually better with targets on edge than a standard concentric design.

Maybe the ring was slightly on edge too !

I remember reading that also, the inner coil is eliptical instead of round like on the 8". I cant remember what benefit it was for though. I think also that the guy who built/designed the F75, Dave Johnson is it?, was the guy who designed the CZs and tried but could not get widescans to work on those detectors.
One of the reasons the sov became so popular is you can tinker with it and get all kinds of accessory coils and gadgets for it. Guys love to tinker

One of the deepest if not the deepest 5" coil made is for the CZs, that little bugger is amazing.

 

[OldBeechnut]

Had a great time with friends EZ Bob, Synthnut Jim in Ocean City New Jersey. Had a nice learning session on deep Gold rings, with the CZ21 and AT Pro. My main thing this trip was to learn about the Cz and Infinium...And the area, Jersey Shores. Even thought it was bitter cold, it was worth every second.

CZ20/21 or the Excalibur/Sovereign, Some of the best machine ever made for the beach.

excal senstivity 11+
disc 1
PP mode only
volume full
doc's amp 3/4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3rfGB7SU6Y

My detector of choice at the atlantic beach's, Still excalibur .............. But the Chesapeake Bay for me...CZ20 8 still by far the best...A new year, new ideas

 

[Ron from Michigan]

Jim,I had a conversation with my brother today in Virginia.He mentioned he would like a beach detector.And my suggestion if money is tight get an older CZ20 which is a great detector for this type of hunting.Anyway talked about your post with the CZ21 finding the ring at 15inches he was laughing on the phone(non believer) and said are you sure? it must have fallen back into the hole.Which reminded me of a post Tabdog had on Finds.I have used CZ20s and have a lot of confidence on this detectors performance and believe its possible to reach this depth in sand.I still like the Sovereign and Excals but the CZs are nice detectors.Just making a joke not trying to offend. HH Ron

 

[synthnut]

Ron,
The beauty of these tests were that the ring was on a cord, accurately measured , and pulled tight to make sure no slack in the line with measured marks on the cord .......I don't do your typical smoke and mirror tests done by some companies to sell product .......I was with very trustworthy folks in the game ..... I'm not into smoke and mirrors ..... This reminds me of when I made a movie of the AT Pro falsing when twisting the coil when it was OFF OF THE SHAFT !!.....Everybody and their brother found fault with my test .....Bottom line was that Garrett ended up fixing the problem in HUGE FASHION !!.... Everyone knows that I'm crazy !!.....But I'm not stupid !!....LOL !!......Thanks for clearing this up ..... I'm beginning to see that one of my favorite sayings continues to be totally founded ....." No good deed goes unpunished " ...... Jim

BTW.....
Since this IS an Excal / Sov forum , you guys that have Excals should talk to OBN .....He's the man with the plan when it comes to Excals !!......Not to mention you find a nicer person to meet or talk to .....Great guy with plenty of knowledge !!......JIm

 

[dewcon4414]

I do have to agree in mineralized soil the FBS machines dont like that loose dirt.... like tilled field soil or mole holes ect. But on a beach.... my SE doesnt seem to have an issue with fluffy or disturbed sand..... especially in the wet sand they used for their test. Could i find a ring at 15 inches..... ive not tested it especially on GOLD. Ive seen the test video..... looks good, but i think Tom Dankowski has pointed out some of those CZ21s are exceptional.... others well. Lets hope you dont have to send it in for repair. All machines are not created equal nor is the salt content and mineralization of our beaches. Conditions are important in any test. Next time you can get a group together test it on a few beaches. Oh and test it in the water..... if the Xcal wins, then what do i do? No. one in the water..... no. two on the beach. Ive also been around long enough to know ..... no one will ever agree with the results. Great info thou guys.

Dew

 

[Neil]

Joe thanks for the video. The AT pro is the most impressive detector Ive seen in awhile by its combination of features/adjustments, ability to hunt in so many locations, cost and from what Ive read garrett offers great customer service. Even though its mediocre depth on wet sand at the ocean, thats enough for fresh drops and its got better sensitivity to smaller gold than the other two you had there.

 

[EZrider]

Joe thanks for the video. The AT pro is the most impressive detector Ive seen in awhile by its combination of features/adjustments, ability to hunt in so many locations, cost and from what Ive read garrett offers great customer service. Even though its mediocre depth on wet sand at the ocean, thats enough for fresh drops and its got better sensitivity to smaller gold than the other two you had there.

Neil, to be honest. With other test conducted by myself and Synthnut. Were finding the death of the AT Pro on par with Excals and Sov GT on our beaches. Synthnut had just sent his in for the upgrades before the video hunt. All the things i didn't like about the machine have been fixed. If i were to travel a lot it would be in my lineup.

 

[Critterhunter]

[you have to reground balance from wet to dry sand and you dont with the BBS/FBS detectors. Thats a real plus right there alone, what a time saver.

My money is on the Sovereign or Excal as you do a test in various soil or sand types. BBS means it's going to cut thru the minerals and salt no matter where you are at, where as conventional ground balance can have real problems with certain ground matrixs. If the ground changes slightly then watch how the performance of any detector on the market will falter, unless you do a ground balance right there where you are doing the test on a buried target. I know some machines have ground tracking but I've found conventional tracking really had an impact in getting less depth on any machine I've used it on. As most of us know, BBS technology is not "auto tracking" in any sense of the word. It uses a very different approach to compensating for the ground signal, which is why they get amazing depth in the worst of grounds and a more true ID at depth.There's a reason why Excals and Sovereigns are known as king of the beach.

That test wasn't exactly apples to apples, either...being that the Fisher was using a larger coil. I've found the 12x10 is a good bit deeper than the 10" Tornado and is able to run at higher sensitivity settings. I'd like to see you do the test with that coil, and make sure you sweep the Sovereign or Excal around for a few minutes before testing it so the machine has compensated for the ground. I've found when testing buried dimes with my GT that if I go right to the target after turning the machine on the results are not as good as when I sweep the coil around for a little bit.

One other thing I've always harped on is that maxing out the sensitivity doesn't always equal best depth. There have been times when I found say 1:30PM on the dial was deeper, even though say 11PM was stabile. That's why I always stick a silver dime in the ground at about 7" and then play with the sensitivity until I get the easiest target ID. More often that not it ends up being about 1:30 to 2PM on the sensitivity dial. I've seen targets null at times when I've ran to edge edge of stability with the sensitivity dial.

Also, just like that CZ21 is probably deeper than the various older models of the CZ, the GT is said to be a bit deeper than older Sovereigns, which in turn I would guess means than the Excal too.

 

[EZrider]

That test wasn't exactly apples to apples, either...being that the Fisher was using a larger coil."

What ??? Both the Fisher CZ and the Excal had the same size coils. Water machine VS water machine. The Fisher is stock. The Excal is "Amped" and was being used in PP mode. The fact that a stock Excal "un amped" is only getting maybe 10in on a target in Disc. Confirms my test i did last year with the "Excal 1000,Sov GT,ETrac,ATpro and CZ-21. We were comparing beach machines on the beach.

 

[Ron from Michigan]

Interesting Video.Thanks Ron

 

[synthnut]

Critter ,
You're right .....The comparison was NOT apples to apples ......The CZ had a stock 10 inch Concentric coil on it , and the Excal had a stock DD coil on it that everyone is claiming is better .....The CZ was did not have the benefit of an amplifier , and was set up in descrimiinate mode, while the Excal had an amplifier and was set up in Pinpoint mode which is the deepest mode for the Excal ...... So you are correct ...The Excal should have had the clear advantage in this situation .... but the CZ still came out on top ......????......We were all just as surprised .....Jim

 

[UncleTom]

I hope everyone in my area will run out and buy cz's and at's and leave me and my GT all alone!

 

[Ron from Michigan]

The best test of depth is in the actual field.One of the parks I hit hard with a lot of CZs including almost the whole line up, the Sovereigns and Explorers for me worked best.I have no experience on salt beaches but here in Michigan I worked lots of fresh water lakes and have used both the CZ20 and Excal,again for me the Minelab worked better, proof of result my improved finds.The detector that gives me the most confidence is the Sovereign. Thanks Ron

 

[Rick(ND)]

I agree with you Ron that when using a Sovereign,Excalibur, Explorers or E-Trac it is the final results on actual targets that counts. Air test and reburied targets may look good on some detectors, but in the field on actual good targets is where Minelab separates the good and bad detectors. Like you I believe in the Sovereign as I see what they can do better than any detector I have used in my 38 years of detecting. The E-Trac too is another very impressive detector, but the Sovereign are easier once you get to know them.

Love your meters Ron as it is the best deal I have seen around and gives everyone a chance to have a meter without breaking the bank.

 

[synthnut]

As I said earlier , I will NOT be using the CZ in the dirt .....Given the choice between the CZ and the Sov. when dirt hunting my vote would go to the Sov ....... When given the choice between the Sov and the E Trac in the dirt , the E Trac is the clear winner ..... As Tom D. mentioned in one of his masking articles , " you can't dig a target that you can't hear " .....

There have been situations whereby the only thing I did NOT do when trying to hit a Silver target that was only about 6-7 inches deep with a Sovereign GT, was to put a smaller coil on it !! ......Too many wiggles and waggles to coax a tone running the Sov , when it just pops out using the E Trac ......

RickND,

As much as I respect your skills running a Sov ( and I seriously do ), there are some targets you're just not gonna hear when running the Sov .....You can't dig what you can't hear ......If you were to dig every iron or trashy target in the NYC parks in order to find the Silver that lies beneath it , you would not move from a 10 ft x 10 ft matrix for a WEEK !!!..... I don't have the time or the patience for hunting this way ..... You would have to be there to witness what I'm talking about to fully understand what I'm saying ....... Then again , different strokes for different folks .......You love your Sov, and I love my E Trac ......That's all that matters ....JIm