bearkat4160
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxvQ0kcfUmo
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ATX vs GPX Part II - :garrett::minelab:
- Thread starter bearkat4160
- Start date
Gold Nuggets
New member
I was impressed with the ATX and surprised with the results from the Minelab...
especially on the larger gold.
especially on the larger gold.
bearkat4160
New member
Yes me too...
Jonathan Porter
New member
I wonder what people would think if I did the exact same test (including setting the GPX up incorrectly) in Australia or anywhere for that matter with a decent amount of mineralisation?
JP
JP
Gold Nuggets
New member
I, for one JP, would be quite interested in seeing those results.....with the detectors setup the same way.
And then the same tests with the detectors setup "correctly" as you would set them up. Look forward to
seeing the video...........
And then the same tests with the detectors setup "correctly" as you would set them up. Look forward to
seeing the video...........
JP, perhaps you'd be kind enough and explain to us where BK went wrong regarding the settings of his GPX and describe to us in detail how it should have been done correctly so that the GPX could hear all 4 nuggets with just one setting and same size DD coil as the ATX did. As far as I am concerned, the BK's video was to demonstrate the ATX's zero necessity to swap coils and/or settings and at the same time benefit from DD coil in mineralized ground. After all it was a DD vs DD - a fair test by all means! Really, one wouldn't want to search a field with one setting and then to go over the same field second time again with a different setting or even a different coil. I can imagine if you tell us the correct settings, BK might consider giving it another go to re-evaluate the test. Perhaps he did miss something?!? Will you please? Thanks.
.......... and it's free 
much appreciated ........saved all of them.
bearkat4160
New member
Yes Jerry, good points...give your alternate settings here JP if your so inclined.
""As far as I am concerned, the BK's video was to demonstrate the ATX's zero necessity to swap coils and/or settings and at the same time benefit from DD coil in mineralized ground"".
Some people just see things clearly as Jerry does...some people critisize without giving options...just sad.
I'm all ears to set up my GPX "correctly" -
Bearkat
""As far as I am concerned, the BK's video was to demonstrate the ATX's zero necessity to swap coils and/or settings and at the same time benefit from DD coil in mineralized ground"".
Some people just see things clearly as Jerry does...some people critisize without giving options...just sad.
I'm all ears to set up my GPX "correctly" -
Bearkat
bearkat4160
New member
Yes; I'm waiting for your video JP...by the way, the mineralization was at 80-82 on my AT Gold as I stated in the video. Not mild soil by any stretch.
Wheres your settings then JP? C'mon man... easy to criticize, hard to give clear alternatives?
Geez; the condescension is thick...
Wheres your settings then JP? C'mon man... easy to criticize, hard to give clear alternatives?
Geez; the condescension is thick...
Bearcat,
I just looked at my weather app and if you're out detecting today I guess it will be pretty chilly!
Hope you get lots of data to help us all understand how the ATX fits in especially compared to a GPX 5000 on various targets and various settings.
When you get back, I'm sure the temperature in the 40's and 10-15 MPH wind will have chilled you a bit, so have a warm drink and sit down to share your knowledge from today,s outing with us. We all want to learn and we need inputs like yours to further the process.
Thanks again for your factual contributions. Keep up the flow of data.
I just looked at my weather app and if you're out detecting today I guess it will be pretty chilly!
Hope you get lots of data to help us all understand how the ATX fits in especially compared to a GPX 5000 on various targets and various settings.
When you get back, I'm sure the temperature in the 40's and 10-15 MPH wind will have chilled you a bit, so have a warm drink and sit down to share your knowledge from today,s outing with us. We all want to learn and we need inputs like yours to further the process.
Thanks again for your factual contributions. Keep up the flow of data.
Jonathan Porter
New member
I'm not ignoring this thread just incredibly busy at the moment and also going by the diatribe I've just read above am not sure if its worth the effort.
I think the ATX (and yes I have not laid my hands on one as of yet) will do as Steve has already clearly stated, it is a water proof PI that has good sensitivity and it comes in at a reasonable price to the customer.
Later today I'll write up a post explaining my comments about the comparison video, however I will say this, Alan if you do not want to attract heated discussion/debate with Minelab detector operators then you need to avoid doing comparison videos where it is obvious you do not understand the fundamentals of the detector your comparing against but at the same time clearly want to blur the results in the direction of your message.
Alan you've siad some pretty intimidating things since I last posted, most of it very defensive, if this turns into a major crap-fest then forget it,
however if you wish to debate in a civil manner then I'm more than happy to take off my "Minelab Rose Tinted Glasses" for a while and take a serious look at the ATX.
Regards
Jonathan Porter
I think the ATX (and yes I have not laid my hands on one as of yet) will do as Steve has already clearly stated, it is a water proof PI that has good sensitivity and it comes in at a reasonable price to the customer.
Later today I'll write up a post explaining my comments about the comparison video, however I will say this, Alan if you do not want to attract heated discussion/debate with Minelab detector operators then you need to avoid doing comparison videos where it is obvious you do not understand the fundamentals of the detector your comparing against but at the same time clearly want to blur the results in the direction of your message.
Alan you've siad some pretty intimidating things since I last posted, most of it very defensive, if this turns into a major crap-fest then forget it,
however if you wish to debate in a civil manner then I'm more than happy to take off my "Minelab Rose Tinted Glasses" for a while and take a serious look at the ATX.Regards
Jonathan Porter
That the GPX 5000 is the most capable PI gold detector is beyond dispute.
The main issues with the ATX it seems to me are divided into 1) how well the ATX works - seen on its own and 2) how it compares to other detectors - specifically in this case the GPX 5000.
The first issue seems to have enough data logged to suggest that it works just fine. Easy to set up and use, ignores hot rocks pretty well, pretty impervious to EMI, and detects impressively small gold down to at least 0.1 gram. Only minus seems to be all that waterproof ruggedness makes for a very heavy package.
The second issue about how it compares to the GPX.
The advertised advantage of the ATX is how it can go from tiny nuggets to respectably large ones without needing to reset controls. The videos presented so far document that but also show how this is not the case for the GPX 5000 AS IT WAS SET UP AT THE TIME.
This ability of ANY detector to detect the widest possible range of nuggets in the widest range of ground without changing coils or set-ups seems to me to be quite valuable and the ability of any detector to do it gives the user a big advantage. If nothing else, it saves worrying all the time if we're "walking over gold".
A test showing how a GPX optimally set up for detecting in mineralized ground can detect both tiny and good sized nuggets without adjustment would demonstrate the capability of the GPX IN THAT RESPECT.
A further comparison test of the GPX with the same settings and an ATX on increasingly tough (that is to say deep) targets would document their relative overall detecting depth. I won't be betting against the GPX on that test, but look forward to the data all the same.
Since very few of us are in Australia, tests there which are done in some of the extreme ground conditions there might be of less relevance to us in North America than tests done in conditions which approximate our goldfields, although I know those conditions vary widely.
Long way of saying, there's lots of work to do yet before answers relevant to amateur gold seekers in North America are clear.
Thanks in advance to all who are contributing.
The main issues with the ATX it seems to me are divided into 1) how well the ATX works - seen on its own and 2) how it compares to other detectors - specifically in this case the GPX 5000.
The first issue seems to have enough data logged to suggest that it works just fine. Easy to set up and use, ignores hot rocks pretty well, pretty impervious to EMI, and detects impressively small gold down to at least 0.1 gram. Only minus seems to be all that waterproof ruggedness makes for a very heavy package.
The second issue about how it compares to the GPX.
The advertised advantage of the ATX is how it can go from tiny nuggets to respectably large ones without needing to reset controls. The videos presented so far document that but also show how this is not the case for the GPX 5000 AS IT WAS SET UP AT THE TIME.
This ability of ANY detector to detect the widest possible range of nuggets in the widest range of ground without changing coils or set-ups seems to me to be quite valuable and the ability of any detector to do it gives the user a big advantage. If nothing else, it saves worrying all the time if we're "walking over gold".
A test showing how a GPX optimally set up for detecting in mineralized ground can detect both tiny and good sized nuggets without adjustment would demonstrate the capability of the GPX IN THAT RESPECT.
A further comparison test of the GPX with the same settings and an ATX on increasingly tough (that is to say deep) targets would document their relative overall detecting depth. I won't be betting against the GPX on that test, but look forward to the data all the same.
Since very few of us are in Australia, tests there which are done in some of the extreme ground conditions there might be of less relevance to us in North America than tests done in conditions which approximate our goldfields, although I know those conditions vary widely.
Long way of saying, there's lots of work to do yet before answers relevant to amateur gold seekers in North America are clear.
Thanks in advance to all who are contributing.
Jonathan Porter
New member
After reading the below comment on Treasurenet posted on 7th September before the ATX was even released I think I will not be bothering with going too much further with this thread, I don't normally like to cross post on forums so if this breaches forum rules mods feel free to delete. TreasureNet Garrett Forum 9/7/2013
Bearkat said....
I will however elaborate out of respect to those who have been following the thread, in my experience there is no such thing as a free lunch. Minelab detectors are designed to work in extreme mineralisation, as such when they originally came out they were supplied with a large monoloop coil and a small 11" DD coil and only one timing. Larger mono coils have less windings, as such they are less sensitive to near coil mineralisation so will run reasonably quiet in noisy ground, when the ground becomes too extreme the operator would then switch to a DD coil. Generally in most gold fields world wide really noisy mineralised ground is shallow, this is why it is so noisy as it is concentrated, so a DD coil would suffice using normal type timings chasing shallow gold, however the Minelab DD coils are wound to provide not only relief from mineralisation but also depth in highly mineralised ground so in the deeper sections they will perform well on larger nuggets at depth. On later detectors Minelab started offering more timings to allow operators to target specific areas, hence Senstive Xtra which has an earlier receive to allow small targets to stand out (sensitive Xtra can be considered to be a Normal type timing). Minelab also made an option known as Mono mode (originally called Enhance on the GP extreme) which turned a DD coil into a pseudo monoloop coil which also increased the sensitivity to small gold, combining Sensitive Xtra with Mono mode really lifted the response on small shallow targets, however it does not have the outright depth of DD mode. Later on they produced a range of timings that allowed a Monoloop coil to be used in highly mineralised areas whilst Maintaining good depth as well as excellent sensitivity to small gold (known as the 'Smooth" class of timings), the Smooth class of timings are not well suited for use with a DD coil unless you select Mono or Cancel mode. All these options are still available in the GPX 5000, not one of them has been taken away.
If I was working the ground demonstrated in the video, I would first use all the FP options of the GPX 5000 (do a re-set to be sure), then using the supplied 11" monoloop coil place the detector in normal timings ground balance nearby and then pass over the targets in Fixed GB, if you want even more bang for your buck on the smaller and larger targets then select Special on the Timings switch on the front end cap then choose Sens Xtra in the Special menu or even Sharp. If the ground is proving noisy (I seriously doubt it because the ATX seems to run quiet in the video) then you can select one of the Smooth Class of timings, Smooth, Enhance or Fine Gold, of which I would choose Fine Gold. In quiet ground a Normal type timing will always outperform a Smooth type timing, it is up to the operator to make that call.
In closing I would say that Garrett have recognised the need for a DD coil to tame mineralisation, and most probably required one for discrimination purposes, but at the same time wanted to maximise sensitivity to small targets, so they have wound a DD coil in such a way that it will provide relief from ground noise in medium mineralisation whilst providing a good response on small targets. In quieter areas this will be a good option and will basically provide the same behaviour as a Minelab detector in Mono mode with a DD coil attached. However in a hot rock infested place such as Australia this is going to be problematic because those hot rocks are going to drive a sensitive DD coil nuts!! I would also say the DD coil is going to suffer from swamping from highly mineralised ground due to the sensitivity of the coil, it has to because like I said before there is no such thing as a free lunch unless Garrett have come up with timings like the 'Smooth Class" of timings which I seriously doubt based on feedback I've received here in Australia.
So to summarise, the Garrett ATX seems to be a reasonably priced water proof PI that has a good amount of sensitivity to small targets in low mineralised areas, to that end it should do well in the US for those who want to go the next step from a VLF type detector, trying to paint it out as something else is just plain wrong. Lastly I do not sell metal detectors, I do this for a living and yes I test for Minelab, but where I live I have to use what works for me, otherwise I would not be able to pay the bills.
JP
Two edits, one to remove direct link to other forum, and one to add this explanation.
Bearkat said....
I will however elaborate out of respect to those who have been following the thread, in my experience there is no such thing as a free lunch. Minelab detectors are designed to work in extreme mineralisation, as such when they originally came out they were supplied with a large monoloop coil and a small 11" DD coil and only one timing. Larger mono coils have less windings, as such they are less sensitive to near coil mineralisation so will run reasonably quiet in noisy ground, when the ground becomes too extreme the operator would then switch to a DD coil. Generally in most gold fields world wide really noisy mineralised ground is shallow, this is why it is so noisy as it is concentrated, so a DD coil would suffice using normal type timings chasing shallow gold, however the Minelab DD coils are wound to provide not only relief from mineralisation but also depth in highly mineralised ground so in the deeper sections they will perform well on larger nuggets at depth. On later detectors Minelab started offering more timings to allow operators to target specific areas, hence Senstive Xtra which has an earlier receive to allow small targets to stand out (sensitive Xtra can be considered to be a Normal type timing). Minelab also made an option known as Mono mode (originally called Enhance on the GP extreme) which turned a DD coil into a pseudo monoloop coil which also increased the sensitivity to small gold, combining Sensitive Xtra with Mono mode really lifted the response on small shallow targets, however it does not have the outright depth of DD mode. Later on they produced a range of timings that allowed a Monoloop coil to be used in highly mineralised areas whilst Maintaining good depth as well as excellent sensitivity to small gold (known as the 'Smooth" class of timings), the Smooth class of timings are not well suited for use with a DD coil unless you select Mono or Cancel mode. All these options are still available in the GPX 5000, not one of them has been taken away.
If I was working the ground demonstrated in the video, I would first use all the FP options of the GPX 5000 (do a re-set to be sure), then using the supplied 11" monoloop coil place the detector in normal timings ground balance nearby and then pass over the targets in Fixed GB, if you want even more bang for your buck on the smaller and larger targets then select Special on the Timings switch on the front end cap then choose Sens Xtra in the Special menu or even Sharp. If the ground is proving noisy (I seriously doubt it because the ATX seems to run quiet in the video) then you can select one of the Smooth Class of timings, Smooth, Enhance or Fine Gold, of which I would choose Fine Gold. In quiet ground a Normal type timing will always outperform a Smooth type timing, it is up to the operator to make that call.
In closing I would say that Garrett have recognised the need for a DD coil to tame mineralisation, and most probably required one for discrimination purposes, but at the same time wanted to maximise sensitivity to small targets, so they have wound a DD coil in such a way that it will provide relief from ground noise in medium mineralisation whilst providing a good response on small targets. In quieter areas this will be a good option and will basically provide the same behaviour as a Minelab detector in Mono mode with a DD coil attached. However in a hot rock infested place such as Australia this is going to be problematic because those hot rocks are going to drive a sensitive DD coil nuts!! I would also say the DD coil is going to suffer from swamping from highly mineralised ground due to the sensitivity of the coil, it has to because like I said before there is no such thing as a free lunch unless Garrett have come up with timings like the 'Smooth Class" of timings which I seriously doubt based on feedback I've received here in Australia.
So to summarise, the Garrett ATX seems to be a reasonably priced water proof PI that has a good amount of sensitivity to small targets in low mineralised areas, to that end it should do well in the US for those who want to go the next step from a VLF type detector, trying to paint it out as something else is just plain wrong. Lastly I do not sell metal detectors, I do this for a living and yes I test for Minelab, but where I live I have to use what works for me, otherwise I would not be able to pay the bills.
JP
Two edits, one to remove direct link to other forum, and one to add this explanation.
JP,
Thanks for the detailed explanation of ML's evolution from the early SD detectors and their coils and settings to the range of settings on the current GPX machines. I haven't seen it summarized like that before. I will need to read it about three times however to get it all lined up right in my head.
I have read your various posts for a number of years and have never known you to be other than plain spoken and forthright.
Should you ever choose to compare an ATX in the field to a GPX 5000, I'm sure the results would be interesting. Meanwhile folks will be curious to test the capabilities and limits of this new machine and comparing it to other detectors is likely to continue.
Forums allow a broad cross section of folks to express themselves freely and the results aren't always pretty. Lord knows I would never venture onto some of the forums I have visited where mudslinging is the norm. I'm sure Steve will ensure that doesn't happen here.
Thanks again
Thanks for the detailed explanation of ML's evolution from the early SD detectors and their coils and settings to the range of settings on the current GPX machines. I haven't seen it summarized like that before. I will need to read it about three times however to get it all lined up right in my head.
I have read your various posts for a number of years and have never known you to be other than plain spoken and forthright.
Should you ever choose to compare an ATX in the field to a GPX 5000, I'm sure the results would be interesting. Meanwhile folks will be curious to test the capabilities and limits of this new machine and comparing it to other detectors is likely to continue.
Forums allow a broad cross section of folks to express themselves freely and the results aren't always pretty. Lord knows I would never venture onto some of the forums I have visited where mudslinging is the norm. I'm sure Steve will ensure that doesn't happen here.
Thanks again
Hi JP,
I asked you NICELY to share your correct settings, so please do it for me. Forget the diatribe and do it for my sake please. It could be of benefit to other ML owners, too, as some may not be quite familiar with some aspects of the machine that you are.Thanking you in advance.
Jerry
I asked you NICELY to share your correct settings, so please do it for me. Forget the diatribe and do it for my sake please. It could be of benefit to other ML owners, too, as some may not be quite familiar with some aspects of the machine that you are.Thanking you in advance.
Jerry
Jonathan Porter
New member
jerrym1 said:
Hi Jerry, in amongst the diatribe there was this
..... steve herschbach
New member
lytle78 said:
The standard policy on the Find's Forum is to not allow this versus that on brand specific forums. This forum is not brand specific and I welcome comparisons AS LONG AS THINGS REMAIN CIVIL. Questioning how a comparison is done is not a personal attack and should not be responded to as such. Name calling is unwarranted. That line has already been pushed hard and I am warning all involved to keep it civil. I have no horse in this race and will no longer participate in this thread other than to monitor it.
Prospectors tend to be an opinionated bunch. I get that and allow for it. But the bottom line is good forums have gone down in flames when things got personal and so that will not be allowed to happen here. Either keep it above board or face deletion or outright banning. That is all I have to say on the subject, there will be no further warnings.
Why are we comparing one tool against another so early in the peace,we dint need this crap at the moment ,the ATX hasn't even been properly christened,the only virgin nuggets we have seen is what Steve has shown and that's what we want to see more nuggets and other finds to wet our appetites so lets keep it on track,you guys are putting yourselves out on limbs that might not hold your weight and spoil our respect for you 