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would requiring a permit help or hinder our hobby

I'm against them - the "Diggers" show has already turned into "no" to my requests to MD because everyone thinks I'm selling everything I find for top dollar. We have too much government wheedling into our lives as is; permits will just be another way for them to take what little money is left after jacked up gas and food prices.

"Historical" items can change from area to area, or what it is. By some definitions, anything over 50 years old is "historical" which means turn in all your wheat pennies, etc. Ask a game agent a question about hunting laws, and there's a new law on the books.

Ask for a permit, and they start out with a low price for it, and then start jacking up the price of those - how is a kid that isn't 16 yet supposed to get a permit to play around with a metal detector that requires a permit?
 
In my 35+ yrs. of this, I have YET to have anyone ever follow me around with a calculator, looking over my shoulder, doing the math. Have you?
 
DaveNV said:
........ "No Digging. Metal detecting OK for surface items." As onerous as it may seem, licensing may be the only way to keep the bureaucrats from completely locking us out of public areas.......

Don't forget Dave: Some SEEKING "permits" may have been the EXACT reason such a rule ever got there .... TO BEGIN WITH.

And also, a sign like that ("no digging") , if you think about it: already exists everywhere, in every park, school, campground, etc... It'll be in some clouded verbage like "no alterations" or "no vandalism" or "no defacement" , etc... Thus if those type of things stop you, then perhaps you ought to restrict yourself to private property right now (or only look for things on top of the ground). But as we all know, as long as you're not leaving any trace, or wearing bright orange with a red-x on your back, ............ There's not a single park I go to (and ... yes .... gulp ... "dig") that wouldn't ......... if I looked long enough and hard enough, and asked enough bureaucrats, have such wording.
 
Tom, I haven't read it lately but If I remember correctly one of the latest Antiquities Laws has anything older than 50 years to be considered "historical".No Calculator needed to figure that #. It used to be 75 but it is not hard to guess who had it moved up.. I too have been detecting for a long time also, regularly since July 20/69, and have had only one serious permit/permission incident..That involved a man of low intelligence (IB)with a 12 ga. with serious ideas of shooting me. Had I not been packing a side arm he probably would have done so.. As far as Tech. do-dads, I had a buddy once had a Ranger try and use his(my buddy's) GPS unit to prove he had been on park grounds. Didn't work, but the Ranger nailed him anyway, I suppose because he had the "stroke"! HH, Charlie
 
There is no good reason to get government bureaucrats involved in our hobby. The only thing that will come from that is we will get our detecting rights legislated away.
Government and help is an oxymoron.
 
Charles, when I say "follow around with calculator", I am not saying that a calculator is needed to figure out 2013 minus 50 = 1963, etc..... I was saying it "tongue in cheek" meaning that ....... no one is riffling through our aprons seeing if we have "items over 50 yrs. old in there". Obviously minusing 50 yrs of the printed age of a coin isn't difficult (most can do that in their heads), but was just saying, that I don't know of anyone who's had someone root through their aprons making sure the coins are all "modern clad".

I mean, seriously now.... if you DID find a 1962 silver roosie (gasp!), why can't you just put it in your sock? If anyone ever comes up to me (as is bound to happen, as any of you know, who've detected long enough), and asks "hey mister, what've you found?", I, LIKE ALL OF US, just deflects with an answer like "a few pennies" or "some pulltabs", etc... RIGHT? I mean, seriously, does anyone of us go blurting out to total strangers:

"I found a 113 yr. old indian head cent, and a 68 yr. dime etc..." ?

No, of course not. Nor have any of those curious onlookers reached in my apron to deduce ages of coins, etc.....

that's all I was trying to say.
 
:cool: I think it would help. I have come upon more than one site where some idiot before me dug holes and did not cover them back up. They are just lazy bums in my opinion. If a permit was required then at least they might cover the holes if they think someone is looking. People who don't cover holes are like trash litter bugs. They just don't care. :rant:
 
Permits are a bad idea, just something else to take more of our money. They start off like $10, in 5 years it's $50, then pretty soon detectors sales goes down and then the end is near.

Ron in WV
 
reddirtfisher said:
:cool: I think it would help. I have come upon more than one site where some idiot before me dug holes and did not cover them back up. They are just lazy bums in my opinion. If a permit was required then at least they might cover the holes if they think someone is looking. People who don't cover holes are like trash litter bugs. They just don't care. :rant:


Do speed limit signs stop speeders? We MOSTLY police ourselves. In EVERY profession Dr's, Lawyers, Police, Fire, you have people that follow rules and people that will not. Ours is NO exception. GETTING RED TAPE involved with the governments can only mean disaster.
 
Tom, your point is well taken, and I suspected your TIC intentions,but thought I might move some "historical" info on toward any noobies/others that may not understand the serious scope of the actual laws. Sorry for any "slight " toward you on my part. Absolutely right you are about us not advertizing our finds to total strangers but in dealing with those in authority (badges/etc), we all, especially the noobies must be prepaired for whatever may come from them. Those that actually have the authority, come in all mentalities, and we most all know sometimes that comes to some sticky situations.when left to their own interpretations of the laws. I won't say"abuse" but yes, for sure it happens more often than not, and us "diggers" almost always get the shaft.The Ranger I mentioned made the attempt to implicate another buddy with my friend(actually 2) that the Ranger nailed.Ranger finally realized he could no way prove his case against the one so he (and a deuputy) agreed to settle for charging ony 2 of the 3.. This amounted to the confiscation of all their detectors and gear for almost a year until court settled the fines and returned their detectors & gear. If the "Law" had known their antiquities law they could have nailed the 3rd. digger for what he had in his apron and pockets,had they checked them, but they made a pretty good bust with the 2, so were satisfied. All that , and there was no real proof presented that anyone was ever inside the Park Area.Threats were even made of consficating the guys vehicles It all hinged around "intimidation", with no positive "proof",and came into full bloom in front of the "judge" almost a year later...I can identify with the park 'boundry" screw up situation myself. I was on a hunt once on the outside (I thought) of a Battle Park and dug a Park, "Keep Out" sign. On the way out I found the 2 strand Barbwire with another sign attached. It obvousily all had been down and covered in leaves for many years and there was no sign of any fence/signs/new /or old in any direction. Had I been caught there I have no doubt I would have been looking at some shaft time. Lol, as the saying goes"Y'all be careful out there! HH, Charlie
 
Tom my friend, I've been enjoying your posts for years now. Your common sense and literary skill always makes your posts a pleasure to read.

More importantly, you are a supreme educator. I think I'll call you the "Permission Professor Emeritus."

I've no doubt that you've kept many anti-MD laws off the books with your sage advice.

Hopefully you frequent all the MD forums...
 
I am in complete agreement with those who said no way. For a 'free' country, it seems we must get permission to do too many things. I would like to add a no to another aspect of the original post. Cities need more money? The us govt is renowned for wasting shameful amounts of our money. Why give them more? A permit of any kind is a tax. Hunting, fishing, driving, dog liscenses are all taxes. Its never enough, if we give them more, they will spend more and be right back in your pocket. We are in a fiscal 'crisis' yet the govt is building 30000 drones to patrol our air and spy on us. We send billions to countries where they burn our flag in their streets. I could go on but i'll spare you and just sum up with NO PERMITS !
 
I have changed my view since my earlier post. I don't think selling permits is a good idea. I guess I'm just used to it since you need a permit for any of the parks in my area already.

Justin
 
One of my favorite stories about asking for permission is the one where an RVer went into Walmart and asked the manager if he could park his rig in the parking lot all night. The manager said, "No, we don't allow that." The guy replied, "What about those four other rigs parked out near the road?" The manager said, "They didn't ask!"

Live free or die!
 
haha, I just have to add one to that story.

A fellow and his friend agreed they would go watch the latest hollywood block-buster, that all their friends were talking about. They agreed on a particular showing time, to meet at the downtown movie cinema theater. When the night and time came, one of the two men was running a minute late. When he arrived at the movie theater, he found that the entire parking lot was utterly full of cars. He circled and circled yet could find no more spots to park his car. But as he was driving around the full lot, he spotted his friend's car, in the neighboring lot, which was a high-rise hotel's parking lot, directly next to the theater's parking lot. And he could see lots of a empty spaces all around his friend's car! So he exited the movie theater lot, and went into the hotel's parking lot. As he was getting ready to pull in next to his buddies car, he happened to see a hotel employee crossing through the parking lot (tell-tale d/t the uniform the man was wearing). He rolled down his window and asked the fellow "Hi, is it ok if I park here for the movie theater?" The employee answered "no, this is the hotel's lot". The man then pointed to his friend's car and said "but my buddy parked here, and he's gone in to the movies". The clerk looked at the car, then looked back at the man, shrugged his shoulders, and said "well...... he didn't ask", and walked off.

So the man left the hotel lot, and FINALLY found a street parking spot 2 blocks away. Jogged the two blocks back to the theater, and was now 15 minutes late for the movie, wandering around the now dark theater looking for his friend.

When the movie was over, the two men left the theater. The one fellow merely walked through the planter to his car, which was still in a parking lot full of empty spots. While the 2nd man walked the two blocks back to his car, on the now dark and empty streets. The person who posted this story on the md'ing forum, drew the same conclusion: No one would probably have cared less, and all he did was make it difficult on himself.
 
A word of caution about organized hobbies and permits or insurance to experience them...I also fly electric RC planes as a hobby. I scratch build my own foam designs via hot wiring from construction foam to both save money and also for the experience of building whatever design I can think up in my head to see if it will fly and how it handles. I almost get as much enjoyment from building them than I do flying them.

But anyways, there was a loose organized "group" of us that would all get together at a massive sized park early on Sunday mornings to fly. It's a huge wide open area and we stay and flew in a back corner of it so as to not put others at risk and stay out of their way.

One day a lady decided to start complaining that we were flying over her house. I knew she wasn't telling us the truth, since her house was off through some woods and we never flew over those woods at the edge of the corner of the open field for fear of losing a plane in a tree or something. We didn't need to anyway, as we had plenty of open air where we were at. One day she even came through the woods and started complaining to me that I was flying over her house. I was sitting on a rock flying my plane, with my back to the woods, and turned around and said "That would be a neat trick, since I don't have eyes in the back of my head."

Sure, 99% of the time I'd never get smart like that, but I was sick of this lady harassing our flying group every Sunday for no reason. She was just one of those people who can't stand to see anybody have any fun. Our electric planes aren't very loud, and besides there was a nice buffer of woods between the field we flew in and her house. She just was "one of those types", if you know what I mean.

So anyway, a few of the guys in our unofficial group, decided that it would be a bright idea to approach the city and see if we could get written permission to fly there. I told them not to risk it, because the police come and watch us all the time anyway, so what's the point? At least one or two of these guys had made remarks before about us all joining the AMA, because they were members and then we could fly at their flying field (which required both AMA insurance and group dues, by the way).

Well, long story short, some few approached the city, and next thing you know it's AMA insurance required to fly there unless you've got home owners insurance that will cover it. There are many places to fly around the country these days where you are required to belong to the AMA to fly. The AMA was formed long ago, during the gas/nitro/big heavy balsa days. Many these days in this hobby are electric flyer's, with smaller lighter planes that can be flown in much smaller areas. Way I look at it nobody owns the sky and I resent being asked to pay to enjoy flying my planes in it.

So what happened? Our little informal group often would have 30+ people or say on any given early Sunday morning. Not all flying at once of course, we kept it down to 4 or 5 planes at the most at any one time in the air, and would land if any stray person even came close to that corner we hid in.

These days? Last I heard the little group had shrunk down to hand full of people, or in fact none might even fly there any more. We've all been scattered to our own personal places to fly, where as before we all had one central location to meet up at. I have large open fields to fly at on private property on a few farms, and I simply refuse to let certain guys from that former unofficial group tag along. I don't want people screwing up what we had before. I don't want to hear lectures about how it's the right thing to do to join the AMA. IE: To me, many organizations, wrongly or rightly in my mind's view, are more about protocol and paying others tribute for some position they hold in title, and of course never forget the money factor involved. I only invite a few select former flyers from the other field with me here and there. The ones I think I can trust not to go all AMA crazy.

I look at metal detecting the same way. The more we organize, the more those in power of that organization will take advantage of it, by way of dues or some formal respects we are expected to acknowledge as somehow "above the rest of us". I am far more into the idea of just pushing good digging techniques onto newbies to show them the ropes, than I am saying "sign this and pay this" and somehow expecting that to make it a perfect world by some magic spell of doing that.

Beware of those who seek power and prestige, because it's often more about them than it is about what they *say* they are going to do for you. That's the way I look at government too. The less of it the better...

PS- If we really wanted to do anything formal, I say the best idea would for the metal detector dealers to all be required to show each new owner of a machine bought from them proper digging techniques and manners in dealing with staying away from the public. Make it so the buyer will have to check off a box on their warranty card that the dealer showed them how to dig, recover, and repair a hole. Only would take 5 minutes in the yard of the shop, or say if they buy online then they are sent a video with any new machine that shows these things.

If they don't check off that box on the warranty card to send in, then if the manufacturer gets enough of those from customers who bought machines at a particular shop, the dealer gets a call and is asked "Why aren't you showing these people proper recovery techniques, or are you sending out the video with the machines that teaches it?" Put it in their contract that if they get enough complaints. Confirmed complaints that is, by way of calling the customer to see if they just forgot to check off that box on the warranty card, then the dealer loses his contract to sell those machines.

In the long run it's in the best interest of both the dealers and the manufacturers, as well as for us in this hobby. That's even a little more "big brother" than I like, but since it's not being imposed by some official body, I guess I can live with it...

By far the best way to avoid a problem is to avoid it in the first place. I try to fly under the radar. Never hunting near people in parks. Always keeping my back turned to the closest one or any road when bending down to dig so they don't "see the act of it". No shovels or military style short ones. Keep your digger in a holster until needed and use a screwdriver whenever possible. If a park gets too crowded to where I can't stay a good distance away from others then I leave to fight another day. If you do get approached don't argue. That only leads to the authorities being called and they always want to stop the complainer, so that means out you go. I have never lost access to sites I hunt over the years doing this.

Don't give people a reason to complain, and if they do just say "sorry I upset you" and come back another day. Chances are you'll never see them again in your life. Throwing around our rights, wrongly or rightly, is only going to get us banned, as we are far too in numbers to sway politicians our way. Also, never ask for permission to hunt public land unless there is a sign that says you have to, or that you need a permit. Only when a place is posted as off limits to detecting should any form of government be approached to see if you can change things. By asking permission to hunt on public grounds were none being required has been posted, you are only asking for a "no", in which case you can no longer use ignorance as an excuse.

We can't hope to change laws. We don't have the numbers or the money to fight many greenies out there for one thing. Just be like the sly animals in nature- Avoid being "seen" at as much as possible...
 
Critterhunter said:
Don't give people a reason to complain, and if they do just say "sorry I upset you" and come back another day. Chances are you'll never see them again in your life. Throwing around our rights, wrongly or rightly, is only going to get us banned, as we are far too in numbers to sway politicians our way. Also, never ask for permission to hunt public land unless there is a sign that says you have to, or that you need a permit. Only when a place is posted as off limits to detecting should any form of government be approached to see if you can change things. By asking permission to hunt on public grounds were none being required has been posted, you are only asking for a "no", in which case you can no longer use ignorance as an excuse.

[/b]

Critter, you have your opinion I have mine. I don't agree with yours and obviously you don't agree with mine. I will keep being me and if you want to leave you sure can keep being you. Thats the nature of this wonderful contry we live in. I will make my own choice and so will you. BUT we can still share the same hobby. And no matter what your doing, one person complaining is NOT going to get a law changed, not even a small group of people.
 
Actually, people do own the sky. I was surprised to discover in a real estate class that when a person buys a piece of land in this state (NY), that person owns from the center of earth out to infiniti. LOL. Moral of the story, don't tell someone that you'll fly your plane wherever you want because nobody owns the sky unless you've checked to make sure!
 
This is always a fun subject, but it really has no answers to solve this 100%...detectorists afield in a public park with a great big shovel in the middle of the day with no idea what is going on, always has happened, always will...I dont care, I'll go where and when I want, and by that I mean nobody will ever see me, and I wont be trespassing or leaving any sign I was there to begin with. I believe this is just one part of the sport that adds its allure to what we do...being invisible, developing a spidey sense when its time to go, and the smarts to know when and where to hunt a spot in the first place.
Mud
 
togamac said:
...... Moral of the story, don't tell someone that you'll fly your plane wherever you want because nobody owns the sky unless you've checked to make sure!

Or as in the case of metal detecting: "Sometimes ..... no one cares.... UNTIL you ask"
 
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