Why do non metered detectors out perform metered detectors?

[Mick in Dubbo]

I've very curious about this as it's been bugging me for a while. I've seen a number of folk comment that there coin count goes up when using a non metered machine like the Tesoros and Garrett Gold Stinger. One of those accounts was by someone here in Australia using a Cibola. He was finding $1 and $2 coins that he knows for a fact had been missed by other detectorists using metred machine. The colour had changed a bit on one coin in particular, which you would assume that affected the numbers towards the lower end of the scale, however, it would have only moved it down into areas where we have other desirable targets that you would normally go for, so I don't think that it's simply a shifting on the numbers Alone. There is a spot that I detect on a regular basis, as it is seeded regularly and my last hunt, I pulled up $4. There is another local that hunts behind me only every other month and picks up $25 or so and only days after my last hunt there, which was just after it's last 'seeding' I learned that 3 blokes hunted this site. a friend of mine observed them and asked one of them, how was he going? He said pretty good and showed him that he'd so far recovered $50! That's not including what the other 2 found. I know you never get it all and I also know that I cover this site fairly well. I also know, that although I don't go after the deepies, I certainly wouldn't walk over $50+ in a one acre area, deliberately. If someone could throw some light on the subject of why non metered detectors are so efficient, I'm all ears thanks?
I do slow down if the ground gets busy so as to allow the detector time enough to recover.
I don't know what sort of detectors these chaps were using. I'm mostly telling that particular story because I clearly leaving a LOT behind.
Mick Evans.

 

[foiled again tab hunter]

I had a metered machine once and I spent more time looking at the meter than swinging the coil thus I was covering less ground....and to me my ears tell me alot more than a meter could about whether to did a target or not and some targets on edge will not sound so good.....when in doubt dig it up...I've found some good stuff that way......This isn't Rocket Science....just get out there and cover an area with the coil close to the ground on your entire sweep...some folks let the coil sweep up at the beginning and ending so that you think your covering a lot of ground but in reality only covering a space of two feet in front of you....and dig those iffie targets...Just my 2 cents....HH...Tab.

 

[Ken in NC]

Mick,

You should tell us what machine you are using and how long you have been detecting

$50 in change in a one acre area that has been hunted in the past sounds like a lot to me. I cannot imagine what goes on there to generate that much coinage lost

You may want to sit and observe these other fellows hunt for awhile. These may be the same fellows who always catch the limit when they go fishing, and always come in under par on the golf course

 

[Monkeywrangler22]

That's $50 AUD, right? HOw common are the Aussie dollar+ coins? Hardly anyone here in the US uses 50cent pieces or the new dollar coins--I've only found 3 dollar coins 'in the wild' in 9mo of tot-lots. It seems that the Aussie dollar coins are very common in use.

 

[Sven]

Up here in Canada we find 1 and 2 dollar coins each outing. I find at least 2 to 3 of each.
They don't have $1.00 bills here, so everyone carries the coins.

 

[Joel-Winnipeg]

The fellow that I usually bring with me will always out hunts me usually 2 to 1 and at times 3 to 1.
He uses the non metered 1266 Fisher while I use a metered Whites,s.
I think that we metered hunter spend a fair amount of time mentally arguing with the meter.
The non metered hunter has learned to judge and perfected the sound that the non metered detector gives.
I look at it as a hobby slow and deliberate he looks at how much coins total he'll find.
I am OK with that as I buy any silver coins from him that he finds.

 

[Jay Evans]

If you have the Metered machine you have to keep the mindset that the meter doesn't tell all. it's just another tool to be used in conjunction with the tones the machine is putting out. You have to think of it like a blind man would react to sounds better ... thus the tone only machine users have developed a better sense for the tones only. the Meter and tones together if you can make yourself take both sets of information in and use this info it will make the TID unit work better for you. Me? I'm a tone only guy mostly but I've used TID machines and that's one thing I noticed was you've got to reset your way of thinking when using that TID. never use that meter as your sole decision to dig. they aren't made to be used in that fashion or they wouldn't have left the tone on the unit. Take the time to retrain your way of thinking when using the TID.

 

[marcomo]

It's been the other way around in my experience.

 

[Jay Evans]

It's been the other way around in my experience.

Can you elaborate more on that? What I mean is to use both sets of Information as a whole and don't depend solely on one or the other....

 

[oldcoon]

I'll try to explain this but I will probably screw it up.

In using my non-metered machines, a Tesoro Vaquero and a Tesoro Silver uMax, I am forced to listen more carefully to my machine.

Beep and dig? Not hardly.

Size and shape tell me a lot about what is in the ground.

When I hit a target, I move around 45* and run the coil over it that way too.

Is the target longer one way than the other?

If so, it is most likely junk and not worth digging.

Coins and rings are round. While they give a strong signal, they give a short signal. Bip. Bip. Bip. Bip.

Long and/or big targets are difficult to pinpoint because of the size and are not worth digging either.

Remember coins and rings are just as long as they are wide and will give a short response.

By learning what not to dig you spend more time hunting for, and hopefully finding, more valuable targets.

However I do want to try a metered machine someday. I want to try the coin depth, VDI and and all that good stuff. I am sure the high tech machines are wonderful but I can't even get through reading their owners manuals. I am not a wire head or electronics whiz. When the time does come I will get a lower end metered machine but it will be more for my amusement that serious detecting work.

 

[Jay Evans]

Good post old coon,
I'm going to try an old Toltec II soon ..... I think I'll like the meter and tones on this old unit....

 

[slingshot]

Well, I'm about to talk about the Compadre here, and for good reason. I can adjust the disc. to just blip on nails (still picks up flat washers) and it seems like every piece of metal seems to show up, including nickels other detectors have missed and teeny gold jewelry. I'm only trying to imply that the ID detectors are probability detectors. All a hunter has to do with the non-metered machines is pop the target out in about the same time the others are looking or listening to the meter or tones. Coin spills, coins next to trash, and coins under trash, coins on edge, coins with heavy patina-the list goes on-are easily missed by metered detectors. I didn't beleive it until I changed and dug tabs. It was the hardest change to make after 30 years.

 

[Mick in Dubbo]

A number of you have giving me some good input and some of you would like a bit more background so you can give a better informed reply.
I've been in the hobby about 8 years. At best guess, I'd say that I've notched up around 2000 on various detectors, starting with a Tracker 4, but didn't start to do really well till the X-Terra's first came out. Bought a 30 just after they were released and replaced it with a 70 about 18 months back. I've also owned 2 Aces and a GTI 1500. The Aces are pretty good, but I get irritated by their bombastic tones. (Causes ear fatigue.) That's why I sold my first one. The GTI's imaging is probably the best visual discriminator that I've used once you figure out where it's sweet spot is, but personally prefer it with the 5x10DD coil on it. Although the imaging doesn't work with this coil, I think it's better because the recovery speed increases significantly and the tones are more animated. By listening to the width of the tone you can easily tell whats what, using the meter as a secondary source, but it's still much slower than the tones. I've just replaced my XS Explorer with an SE. Put around a 120 to 130 combined on them over a 3 year period and and really only just starting to get a reasonable understanding of what the tones are really saying. I've also not long bought an Omega. I've only had a few hunts on it, so am a newbie as far as that unit goes. I currently own 5 detectors. All mentioned above.
Something that has stood out to me. I had one of those freak days that you get while hunting at my son's former school. I get permission to hunt it once a year and normally pull out around $120 over the holiday period. Last year, I went rel slow with the Explorer and did above average, but on one particular day, I'll pulled out the X-Terra 70 with the 5x10 DD coil and in about 6 hours pulled out $97 plus 6 or 8 pre -decimal coins. One of my highest modern coin hunts and by far the best single hunt on old coins that I'd ever had. On that day, I started digging target that caused the meter to bounce around a lot. They looked like rubbish, but there was a little voice in my ear saying there was something about them so did! Most of them were coins. The same thing happened as I chased only half backed signals, that didn't sound very good. Same result. That hunt of the school ended with a total of $298! On a hunt last week end, I chased after those dodgy signals with bouncing numbers and only partial signals and you can guess what started to come out of the ground. Yep, coins again
As far as one of these chaps finding $50 plus what ever else the other guys found, the information is second hand so I can't confirm it's validity. I do trust the guy who told me, but it's not first hand info. I have hunted with Werewolf back at Christmas. He had his Cibola (no he's not the chap I was referring to about walking over our goldies ($1 and $2 coins.) He is one very efficient hunter. He can make a coin recovery with his Leshe digger faster than I can with my screw driver. (we actually swapped detectors for a while which was fun.) By the time he left, he'd recover $40 while I had $7. I was being social! (That's my excuse anyway) I did eventually match his total that day, at the same place, but it took me several more hours. BTW Like our Canadian friends, our $1 and $2 coins are VERY common and generally are 80% of our totals here. Our gold coins are very similar to your zinc pennies in where they show up on the screen of a metered detector, but they are also the least effected by being in the ground. 50 cent pieces are the least common, mostly because they are large and more easily noticed by the person dropping them, they are easily seen and I say that they are out there in lower numbers than the other coins. They are also a 12 sided shape.
What's starting to form in my mind, is the need for a detector that you can hear when you have a coin or 3 under the coil, purely by tone. Werewolf said he loves the quiet tone of the Cibola, because that's telling him it's a coin. Is that what the rest of you find? I have listened to the Garrett Scorpion on Utube. It's an instructional video, but you can hear very distinct differences in the edges of the signal that tells you what the target is. This last paragraph is at the core of my thinking at the moment and I be very interested in your thinking of the topic? Someone mentioned the Compardre, which is a detector of interest to me. So is the Cibola and Scorpion. I'm wondering if it's worth selling off a couple of units that I have, and switch camps.
Thanks again for the time you've already taken and will value your further input.
Thanks.
Mick Evans.

 

[Monkeywrangler22]

The Cibola is a great monotone machine. I mean it, just one tone. It will sound rough or clipped over trash sort of, (though my Deleon is clearer to my ear), and you will get the classic double beep on surface items as you sweep over it. I sold my Cib for the Deleon and I am happy--my keepers- to- trash ratio has improved with the Deleon and my nickle finds have gone way up. Honestly, if you want a non-metered tone machine, get the Tesoro Golden. It has 4 tones in disc mode IIRC.

 

[therover]

If depth is the same for both machines, the reason the non-metered hunter will/may perform better is because the metered hunter is relying too much on the METER READING.

Meter ID after a certain depth is iffy and becomes meaningless. I think a metered machine's depth reading is much more important, because if you have a target that is hitting fairly well in multiple directions, but the meter is bouncing around, as long as the depth is 8+ inches...dig it. Meters are great for cherry picking in trashy areas, but almost useless if you are going for the deep coins.

Case in point. I have a 10+ inch deep quarter buried in my yard. The soil is mostly clay based. I have a lot of machines, but only a few hit it. One being my XL-Pro with the small 5.3 inch black max coil ( this set up is really awesome). It hits the quarter solid, but the meter pegs all the way to the right. Knowing the machine, a hot rock hitting that way will peg the meter the same way, but not pin point in all metal ( I always run in hot rock accept...much deeper) where as a deep target will. Just barely, but when switching to GEB Norm, there is a slight threshold change where as a hot rock will null. Iron will have the needle staying on the left side, and the target will be breaking up where I have my discrimination setting...which is just a hair past nails. The quarter may peg the meter, but the depth reading is 9+, it signals in all metal, and so if I am out in the field, I am digging that target. Also, if I continue to swing at different speeds and angles, this target may have the meter float back into the quarter/half range and then peg again...a hot rock will not do that. If I relied solely on the meter, I may have bypassed that target. Also, my CZ6a hits this quarter with the 8 inch coil, but it is mostly a low tone ( ie, iron tone) with the occasional high/mid tone hit. But since I know my CZ, and how they can react to deep coins and signal as iron, if I get a depth reading of 8+ inche and a small pin point, I HAVE to dig those targets. Yup...I have dug TONS of nails this way, but also LOTS of deep silver coins and wheaties.

There are a lot of variables, but I always say if you are in an area where there may be deep coins, FORGET the meter. Dig all repeatable sounding, even 'iffy' targets, and only use the meter for depth reading. If you want to bypass the shallow targets, you can via the depth meter. The one advantage is that the meter can help ID the shallower targets. But also remember gold rings can ID as iron !

If the machine has a meter, that's all it is...a meter. It can still be a beep and dig machine. If you don't have the will power not to look at the meter, put tape over it ! Bet you may find more good targets ( as well as bad) that way. But if you know your machine and how the meter reacts and works ( what's cool about the XL-Pro is that the tone is independent of the meter, so you have two sets of info to help you), you can use it to your advantage and POSSIBLY dig less garbage.

JC

 

[slingshot]

I am going to give at least one more post, and I don't mean anything negative about it. Do you know that my favorite tip for hunting is to pretend you are looking for dimes? I mean that literally. It means a coil that is overlapped quite a bit and I have found QUARTERS with weak signals (ground minerals, masking?) that have, by their appearance been there for quite some time. I lost my job a few years ago, and noticed that I could eat with just the dime finds and so just out of curiosity I decided to try to find these things in larger quantities and my salary went up. I was going for quantity at first, but the dimes not only changed that but gave me peace of mind and assurance I would make it.

 

[Furious T]

Mick,
I use metered and non-metered machines, and yes, I find that my coin count goes up when I use non-metered detectors, sometimes. Which leads me to believe that it's the guy on the end of the handle rather than the detector, how he's feeling and how many times he wants to dig. The other thing is this: when you're not worried about looking at a screen, you tend to concentrate more on the audio signal and all your sensory powers are directed in that direction. This is my personal experience, and I enjoy (love) using both types of machines.

 

[tvr]

If it's just coin count, my latest metered detector (F75-LTD) has been beating my other detectors at my hardest hit places. At most of the school yards, most targets are clad coins, foil, tabs and pencil erasure ferrules and not usually very deep. If I just hunt coins, the LTD is not iffy on coins on edge and only throws a few pieces of foil, tabs and pencil erasure ferrules right at nickle. The coins ID fast as coins and are out of the ground and on to the next.

For me, the Cibola and Tejon still turn up more jewelry in the dirt than my other detectors. I will dig a lot of foil, tab and other trash, but the gold turns up too.

I have found that the more time I spend with any detector I've had, the better I get with it.

A lot of wisdom in previous posts in this thread. I've copied some portions into a document that I've updated over the years that I go back and re-read from time to time to remind myself things about techniques, focus, perspectives and good habits.
Cheers,
tvr

 

[Mick in Dubbo]

Thanks everybody for all the great input.
Furious, you are right about concentrating on the audio. I've even done that with the Ace from time to time. When it gets dark, I'l knock out the notches I'm not interested in, then focus on the tones. Although the Ace isn't very expressive, when tuned in, you can figure some of the targets out.
Slingshot. You hit the nail right on the head about those weak sounding quarters. Although I hunt a different currency, I've noticed the same thing happening to our gold coins. They hit in zinc penny range, but on those days I start chasing those weak dodgy signals, it's surprising me that quite a number are actually coins. That is part of the reason that I mentioned about the Cibola user finding that grey looking $2 coin that he knew other operators, including himself had walked over it. he had only just bought the Cibola. That's a large part of the crux of what has me scratching my head. These coins are only shallow with no other trash in the hole that I noticed (sure, there could be something deeper down) and that has a lot to do with my thinking as to whether I should get a non metered machine or not. That has happened both here in town and down at Sydney. Actually, on one of those days where I just couldn't seem to put a foot wrong, I detected this place that I'd heard about on the radio news and pulled up $86 in four hours, with quite a number of those, being those weak dodgy signals and often wrong numbers, and all targets were less than 4 inches deep and no other rubbish next to them. Perhaps I need to rethink what I go after.
Mick Evans

 

[BarberBill]

I agree with therover. IMHO the difference is not in the machines if technically equal, one with meter and one without, but in the user and his/her experience and hunting style.
BB