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Who Is Michael The Archangel In The Bible?
- Thread starter SeniorSeeker
- Start date
C. Nyal de Kaye
New member
Steve O has made what seems to be a very good argument for his proposition that Jesus is not equal to God. This is not a new argument and has been around for ages.
Steve's argument stands defiantly before the face of two millenia of Church history that boldly proclaims that Jesus is God.
To my mind the argument that Steve presents, and the fact that Church history condemns it, are both inconsequential being of human origin.
Our authority is not any human being, not in Church history, or in any fact or otherwise of history, but rests on the very Word of God and nowhere else.
People make very clever and believable arguments about everything, and their arguments all rest on human authority, on
Steve's argument stands defiantly before the face of two millenia of Church history that boldly proclaims that Jesus is God.
To my mind the argument that Steve presents, and the fact that Church history condemns it, are both inconsequential being of human origin.
Our authority is not any human being, not in Church history, or in any fact or otherwise of history, but rests on the very Word of God and nowhere else.
People make very clever and believable arguments about everything, and their arguments all rest on human authority, on
Ma Betty in MO
New member
Amen Nyal for your very good and knowledgeable post.....The Old and New Testaments proclaim and reveal when Jesus would come by virgin birth without the seed of sin by man, for she knew not a man, intimately, but God's Holy Spirit overshadowed her and she conceived by a miracle conception....So Jesus (came in the flesh, Who is God with us) was born without sin and never did sin, although tempted in all points like we are but more so and suffered a most horrible death on the cross that we might be saved and if we don't believe in His virgin birth, death and resurrection than we are still lost sinners and will not enter into the heavenly kingdom with Him! Amen! 
Ma
MaNyle, My arguments are for good reason and from good reading. Just because it's immovable, does not make it truth. Who rules this earth? Yes, he was cast down and blinds men's eyes and has been doing it for ages past.
Proverbs 8: KJV
22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
John 8: KJV
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
Proverbs 8: KJV
22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
John 8: KJV
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
C. Nyal de Kaye
New member
I am sorry Steve, but with all the good will that I can muster, I have no understanding of the argument you are seeking to make in your above post.
Nyle, same topic......."is Jesus, God?'
In the Bible verses above from King James Version - Proverbs - Jesus talks about being brought forth and was there with His Father God when God created all things.
John - Jesus states that He does nothing of Himself but as His Father taught Him.
Can one believe that Jesus is Jehovah... or Jesus is Yahweh, after reading just these few verses? God didn't clone himself. He created angles and Jesus was the first (Michael), and was there when God created everything else.
Jesus was telling His disciples that before He was a man, He was with his Father in Heaven, learning and working along side Him.
In John He says He is not alone to do what He thinks to do and does nothing by Himself, but what His Father has taught Him.
Jesus represented His Father, Jehovah. He was put on earth as a human to spread the Word etc. God couldn't come to earth because man cannot look at God and live, they wouldn't survive. God had angles to do the tasks needed and Jesus was doing what he was told by God His Father.
It was all planned out by God from the beginning of the bible Genises 3:15..God was telling Satan that he will be bruised in the head (death blow) while only bruising Him (Jesus) in the heel....future event.
For the Bible to make sense, it has to have the same meaning throughout with no contradictions.
Either way Nyle, at least we get to talk about some very interesting topics. When we disagree it helps us learn and sharpen our beliefs....I hear your reasoning, you hear mine.. and hopefully we are the better for it.
In the Bible verses above from King James Version - Proverbs - Jesus talks about being brought forth and was there with His Father God when God created all things.
John - Jesus states that He does nothing of Himself but as His Father taught Him.
Can one believe that Jesus is Jehovah... or Jesus is Yahweh, after reading just these few verses? God didn't clone himself. He created angles and Jesus was the first (Michael), and was there when God created everything else.
Jesus was telling His disciples that before He was a man, He was with his Father in Heaven, learning and working along side Him.
In John He says He is not alone to do what He thinks to do and does nothing by Himself, but what His Father has taught Him.
Jesus represented His Father, Jehovah. He was put on earth as a human to spread the Word etc. God couldn't come to earth because man cannot look at God and live, they wouldn't survive. God had angles to do the tasks needed and Jesus was doing what he was told by God His Father.
It was all planned out by God from the beginning of the bible Genises 3:15..God was telling Satan that he will be bruised in the head (death blow) while only bruising Him (Jesus) in the heel....future event.
For the Bible to make sense, it has to have the same meaning throughout with no contradictions.
Either way Nyle, at least we get to talk about some very interesting topics. When we disagree it helps us learn and sharpen our beliefs....I hear your reasoning, you hear mine.. and hopefully we are the better for it.
First of all....Thank you guys! It is soooo refreshing to read these posts of your opinions without you attacking each other. Even though I'm not sure where I fall on your statements, it has got me thinking. Thinking enough to seek my Pastor's input on this subject and also reading more of the Bible. So even though you guys do not agree it has had a positive effect on me!
Thank you!
Thank you!
Ma Betty in MO
New member
Let me ask you a question, Steve O, if Jesus is not God,, Whom is the Only One Who can save and forgive mankind of sins, then in whom are we saved, for Jesus came into the world that we might be saved but we have to believe in faith in Who Jesus is: The Messiah, God with us, for He told His disciples, if you've seen Me, you have seen the Father! If it were not for God taking on flesh, so He could have a body, for God is a Spirit; and therefore appeared as the Son....we have no chance to be saved without obeying mans' laws of which there were too many! Jehovah God is three in one, God the Father, Jesus the Son and God's Holy Spirit or as some of us say, the Holy Ghost! It takes God's righteousness to save us from our sins, if Jesus is not God, then we would need to be living under the Laws of the Old Testament, but God made a new covenant (The New Testament) and sent His only begotten Son by virgin birth, Who was without sin, for Jesus was born fully man and fully God!
No other way is there to be saved but by God through Jesus' precious, holy name! If Jesus were only a man or an angel, then no way could we be saved and live free from man's laws which were too many to keep, so Abraham by faith in God believed which was counted as righteousness and now we are made righteous by faith in Christ Jesus and obedience to God's Holy Word with His Holy Spirit leading us into all truth when saved and honoring God through Him, for God is number One, Jesus is number Two and God's Holy Spirit is number three, for God is Three in One! By faith in Jesus, we become God's Child and Jesus' brother and sister and God's Holy Spirit does the work of what needs to be done!
Jesus is the Word and there is life in the Word of God, Who spoke all there is and has been created into existence both of what is seen and unseen! God created all things and so did Jesus, so He has to be God but is second when God came in the flesh so the world could see Him, as no one can hardly see a Spirit, for we are spirit, too, which will go back to God Who gave us life! There is a mortal body and a spiritual body! Also, the LORD appeared unto Adam and Eve in the Garden, so He must have had a body then and apparently appeared as Jesus, although He had not come yet as Savior! When God came in the flesh as Jesus, He made a way to not have to live under the law again by our having believing faith in Jesus as He forgives us of our confessed sins and sanctifies by washing us clean with His pure blood shed for all sinners, for we are all born sinners in need of a savior! What a bloody world it would be if we still had to shed the blood of bulls, goats and lambs!!! Now, we have Jesus, Who is God and He is the Lamb of God, shedding His blood once for all and to never have to die in our place ever again! Amen!
You see there are many Scriptures I could post here showing Jesus is God , but I don't have the time to look them up and takes too long to post because of my Computer acting up...sometimes I have to post the same thing over and over before it will be posted to see and read! Anyone can take Scripture to prove their point, even me, so, therefore, we have to study the whole Bible diligently and I have and did for over 20 plus years and although I don't remember Chapters and verses...I do know what God has shown me through His Holy Spirit....God number 3! I am saved, baptized in water and have rec. the Baptism of the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost as some of us refer to Him! Amen! So I ask again in Whom are we saved if Jesus is not God, for He is the truth, the life and the way to His Father and Jesus is our Heavenly Father?? Ma
No other way is there to be saved but by God through Jesus' precious, holy name! If Jesus were only a man or an angel, then no way could we be saved and live free from man's laws which were too many to keep, so Abraham by faith in God believed which was counted as righteousness and now we are made righteous by faith in Christ Jesus and obedience to God's Holy Word with His Holy Spirit leading us into all truth when saved and honoring God through Him, for God is number One, Jesus is number Two and God's Holy Spirit is number three, for God is Three in One! By faith in Jesus, we become God's Child and Jesus' brother and sister and God's Holy Spirit does the work of what needs to be done!
Jesus is the Word and there is life in the Word of God, Who spoke all there is and has been created into existence both of what is seen and unseen! God created all things and so did Jesus, so He has to be God but is second when God came in the flesh so the world could see Him, as no one can hardly see a Spirit, for we are spirit, too, which will go back to God Who gave us life! There is a mortal body and a spiritual body! Also, the LORD appeared unto Adam and Eve in the Garden, so He must have had a body then and apparently appeared as Jesus, although He had not come yet as Savior! When God came in the flesh as Jesus, He made a way to not have to live under the law again by our having believing faith in Jesus as He forgives us of our confessed sins and sanctifies by washing us clean with His pure blood shed for all sinners, for we are all born sinners in need of a savior! What a bloody world it would be if we still had to shed the blood of bulls, goats and lambs!!! Now, we have Jesus, Who is God and He is the Lamb of God, shedding His blood once for all and to never have to die in our place ever again! Amen!
You see there are many Scriptures I could post here showing Jesus is God , but I don't have the time to look them up and takes too long to post because of my Computer acting up...sometimes I have to post the same thing over and over before it will be posted to see and read! Anyone can take Scripture to prove their point, even me, so, therefore, we have to study the whole Bible diligently and I have and did for over 20 plus years and although I don't remember Chapters and verses...I do know what God has shown me through His Holy Spirit....God number 3! I am saved, baptized in water and have rec. the Baptism of the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost as some of us refer to Him! Amen! So I ask again in Whom are we saved if Jesus is not God, for He is the truth, the life and the way to His Father and Jesus is our Heavenly Father??
MaMa Betty in MO
New member
So good to hear that you will seek the truth for yourself, as man will fail but God nor His Holy Spirit will and He is the One Who leads us into all truth by faith believing in Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord! Amen! Ma
Ma
saltersnatch
Member
It states clearly in the Bible that Jesus is God. In the book of John.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. i.e. God is the Word, the Word is God.
Now
John 1:14 The Word became Flesh and made His dwelling among us. i.e. The Word who is God came to earth and became one of us. So the Word is God, Jesus is the Word, Jesus is God.
All praise, glory , and honor to King Jesus!!!!! Hosana in the Highest!!!!!!!
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. i.e. God is the Word, the Word is God.
Now
John 1:14 The Word became Flesh and made His dwelling among us. i.e. The Word who is God came to earth and became one of us. So the Word is God, Jesus is the Word, Jesus is God.
All praise, glory , and honor to King Jesus!!!!! Hosana in the Highest!!!!!!!
Ma Betty in MO
New member
n/t
C. Nyal de Kaye
New member
Steve, old mate, long ago I learned that other people's arguments are always better in their own mind than any reply, or counter argument, that I or anyone else may make. I do not say that in any derogatory way towards you, but simply as a distillation of my experience.
You have stated your case and, to you, it is unarguable.
To me, it makes little sense at all.
By contrast, my counter propositions, make little sense to you and I accept that.
To my mind, this is often a problem and the reason is that all of we humans are affected by the Fall, and our logic has been somewhat perverted.
Hence we have probably hundreds of denominations in the Christian Church, and all with good conscience think that they are right.
But they can't be, can they?
To my way of looking at it, I try and take the Bible as literally as possible and it alone is the Authority on all matters.
Given that any individuals logic is somewhat corrupted, I refer to a secondary source, the weight of Christian thought over the ages.
That too may be somewhat corrupted but, with prayerful consideration, it is possible to see that the real TRUTH comes out.
In this matter, the ancient fathers (about 300AD I think) originally considered this idea under discussion and declared it to be in error.
That conclusion has been confirmed over and over again in all the generations as far as I can see.
I therefore come down on the weighty side of collective Christian opinion over the ages, and not on the side held by a tiny minority over those years.
The great weight of Christian thought over the years is that Jesus is eternal God, that He is the Creator, the Saviour and the living Lord who is coming again.
To my mind, any plain reading of Scripture supports this and only this.
So Steve, I have nothing but good will towards you, but I reject your proposition outright.
You are adding your weight to a tiny minority of opinion, with very doubtful Scriptural support according to collective Christians over two millenia, and that does not seem to me to be the way to go.
You have stated your case and, to you, it is unarguable.
To me, it makes little sense at all.
By contrast, my counter propositions, make little sense to you and I accept that.
To my mind, this is often a problem and the reason is that all of we humans are affected by the Fall, and our logic has been somewhat perverted.
Hence we have probably hundreds of denominations in the Christian Church, and all with good conscience think that they are right.
But they can't be, can they?
To my way of looking at it, I try and take the Bible as literally as possible and it alone is the Authority on all matters.
Given that any individuals logic is somewhat corrupted, I refer to a secondary source, the weight of Christian thought over the ages.
That too may be somewhat corrupted but, with prayerful consideration, it is possible to see that the real TRUTH comes out.
In this matter, the ancient fathers (about 300AD I think) originally considered this idea under discussion and declared it to be in error.
That conclusion has been confirmed over and over again in all the generations as far as I can see.
I therefore come down on the weighty side of collective Christian opinion over the ages, and not on the side held by a tiny minority over those years.
The great weight of Christian thought over the years is that Jesus is eternal God, that He is the Creator, the Saviour and the living Lord who is coming again.
To my mind, any plain reading of Scripture supports this and only this.
So Steve, I have nothing but good will towards you, but I reject your proposition outright.
You are adding your weight to a tiny minority of opinion, with very doubtful Scriptural support according to collective Christians over two millenia, and that does not seem to me to be the way to go.
broadestpower
New member
God Bless Steve, may your 2014 be filled to overflowing.Trust not your heart, but put your trust in God. Ask God to show you the truth in His Word. May you cone to know Jesus in a more personal way and walk in the light of His Word. George
landman
Member
It's Jesus in pre-incarnate form. He took upon the form of an Angel
my guess is just before He and the Father created the angels.
Thus the issue is between Lucifer and Jesus/Michael.
Jesus in heaven appeared rather unassuming just like as man on Earth.
That role lead to Lucifer thinking if Michael/Jesus can create with His voice then I must be able
to have power within myself and think and live independent of the Father.
my guess is just before He and the Father created the angels.
Thus the issue is between Lucifer and Jesus/Michael.
Jesus in heaven appeared rather unassuming just like as man on Earth.
That role lead to Lucifer thinking if Michael/Jesus can create with His voice then I must be able
to have power within myself and think and live independent of the Father.