Went prospecting.. got kicked out.

[bsmg]

be offended, and don't try to think of anything nice to say. the 1872 mining laws are clear, and in california claim jumping is a felony. there are proper claim markings required and none of them have anything to do with no tresspassing signs. if the property you are on is not yours, and you don't know who it belongs to, do you really think you should be there? what makes you think you can just stop along the road and just take something of someone elses? no, i probably wouldn't hold you until a police officer came. probably what would happen is big tom woul hit you on top of the head and break both of your ankles before i could stop him. you could be sure of one thing though. you would not leave with the detector. that is evidence that would be required when you are prosecuted.

as for knowing the law, all of you better wake up and smell the coffee. your democrat presidential candidates have a bill up for debate RIGHT NOW that would make your california river laws history. this bill would put all navagable waters under the jurisdiction of the corp of engineers, and would include any river, stream, creek, or WETLAND. anything bigger than a birdbath or baptismal. please read HR 2421 and S 1870 these are ammendments to the clean water act of 1972. what detector swingers don't understand is that miners are under attack from all sides already. is it so hard to ask? is it too hard to do some research to see whos property you are about to carry away. i have been swinging a detector since white introduced their first one knob coinmaster. that is longer than many who have posted here have been sucking air. i have NEVER so much as turned the on-off switch to the on position without knowing the area i am about to search is not going to infringe on another persons rights or property. that should have been the very first thing you learned about using a detector.

 

[sandcrab]

bsmg? So would you shoot me as I walked back to my truck? Maybe it is 1849 in your head but not in the REAL world, carefull who you point that thing at, some of us really know how to use them.

 

[Tim-PY]

[size=large]Guess if I had a Californian claim I would post the property with .98 cents Wal-Mart No Trespassing signs to avoid any conflict as well as whatever other markings are needed and or required. I wouldn't try and hold another person at gun-point or let Big Tom hit anyone on the head and brake his ankles! The original poster here had no idea if he was on private property, he stopped along side of a road, most states roadsides are public property, he was asked to leave and did, not even knowing if the person who told him to leave owned it. I own two properties and I am not allowed to put up anything on my property within 25 feet of the center of the road, that's about 14 feet into what most may consider their property. Legally if a car is parked on the side of the road in front of my house there is nothing that I can do. Now if the person I explained to that this was my claim area who was ON my property and politely asked to leave showed up again, then I would simply call Law Enforcement with their License Plate info and description to come and legally handle the issue. If it is a felony as you state, they won't be returning anytime soon and I could feel good that I handled it lawfully without anyone getting injured, including myself. That's why we have Law Enforcement, they are only a phone call away! You seem a little trigger happy here and that is why many have posted the way they did. I hope your claim pays off better for you as you seem quite worried someone may find a nuggett of yours. I pray the Lord will bless you with peace as you come across as quite angry, I hope all is well with you, please try and relax a little, there are a lot of decent people here on this forum, I don't believe anyone means you any harm. It would be nice if you could share more of what you know about the Laws so others here could learn as well. Sincerely, Tim[/size]

 

[briankb70]

[quote licn2chill]Well said Dave,...being a retire State Game Warden, I'm pretty much on par with your "metro" experience of being ready, ALL THE TIME. You never know who it is you're going to run into out there, it may be just some older guy who was a grocery store manager the better part of his life, or maybe a retired cop. I've had to deal with some pretty crusty old guys running a dredge on major rivers in California, and while most were decent guys, there was always the anti-law, I'm gonna do it my way, Claude Dallas attitude out there. The fun was trying to figure out which one he was.[/quote]Were you one of the wardens in the manhunt for claude? I just happened to catch the story on the Discovery Channel last week.

 

[DaveBien]

Somehow I think that unlawful restraint, agg. battery with a firearm, agg battery with great bodily harm (breaking ankles, etc) or violation of federal civil rights (whether you agree or not with them) really trumps your Calif miner's rights. And trust me I'm a conservative. Those are REAL felonies not just trumped up trespass to property claims. You will get sued and very likely lose a great deal of money and there's a good chance of criminal charges. You just can't shoot people out of hand. And I do agree that people should check the property before they go out. I sure hope no one ever runs into the back of your car.... It's just not 1872 anymore, like it or not.

 

[bigfrank]

[quote bsmg]be offended, and don't try to think of anything nice to say. the 1872 mining laws are clear, and in california claim jumping is a felony. there are proper claim markings required and none of them have anything to do with no tresspassing signs. if the property you are on is not yours, and you don't know who it belongs to, do you really think you should be there? what makes you think you can just stop along the road and just take something of someone elses? no, i probably wouldn't hold you until a police officer came. probably what would happen is big tom woul hit you on top of the head and break both of your ankles before i could stop him. you could be sure of one thing though. you would not leave with the detector. that is evidence that would be required when you are prosecuted.

as for knowing the law, all of you better wake up and smell the coffee. your democrat presidential candidates have a bill up for debate RIGHT NOW that would make your california river laws history. this bill would put all navagable waters under the jurisdiction of the corp of engineers, and would include any river, stream, creek, or WETLAND. anything bigger than a birdbath or baptismal. please read HR 2421 and S 1870 these are ammendments to the clean water act of 1972. what detector swingers don't understand is that miners are under attack from all sides already. is it so hard to ask? is it too hard to do some research to see whos property you are about to carry away. i have been swinging a detector since white introduced their first one knob coinmaster. that is longer than many who have posted here have been sucking air. i have NEVER so much as turned the on-off switch to the on position without knowing the area i am about to search is not going to infringe on another persons rights or property. that should have been the very first thing you learned about using a detector.[/quote]

Then Big Tom would be dead on the spot also. You seem quick to draw a conclusion that you or someone with you is going to do someone harm without reprocussions. If I was on your property and didnt know it, you should ask me to leave, and I would. The second you drew a firearm on me, or "Big Tom" pulled out his noggin pounder out and threatened my life, I would probably go to guns and let the police sort it out. I may go away in cuffs (for the moment), you , however wouldnt be going anywhere.

Dont be a fool, change your attitude before something serious happens to you.

 

[Mike Hillis]

This has been a fun thread!

With mining claims, you don't own the property itself, just the mineral rights to it. So anybody can walk across it, through it, upon it, even stop for a picnic and fool around, fish, camp, etc. So No Trespass signs are inappropriate. But you do have to have it properly signed for a mining claim.

However, start filling your pockets with rocks, or pull out a metal detector on a piece of property under claim and properly marked and you are breaking the law and subject to prosecution. You are now a Claim Jumper. Known claim jumping can be defended against and yes, you CAN be held for the authorities, and yes, even at gun point. A claim jumper wants to engage in a shoot out, he looses. Remember, just being on a claim is not an offence. Searching for and recovering minerals from it is.

What makes this so much more serious is the current and projected price of gold. All of a sudden, gold bearing claims have now become real treasures, and the owners will hold them in much higher esteem. So you really do need to pay extra attention to where you are and what you are doing.

HH

Mike

 

[Tim-PY]

[size=medium]Hi Mike, what does a claim post sign look like? Would they be posted along public road sides? I appreciate your calm explanation about why there may not be No Trespassing signs for a claim, makes sense! Going back to the first post that started this thread, the poster didn't see ANY signs, the response was quite harsh to his post. Would you have tried to hold the original poster at Gunpoint under those circumstances? Maybe someone can post an example of what a claim post would like? Thank you, Tim[/size]

 

[sandcrab]

Thats it, I am staying in Florida I don't think anyone other than the Fishers and other offshore hunters have any Gold Claims here, another good reason to stay away from California. Some one pulls a gun on me and thats it they must be robbing me, BANG! Had some punks try to steal my camera equipment one evening way out in the woods, lucky for them they didn't have a gun, I just beat the @#$% out of them with my tripod, a Manfroto tripod is a very dangerous weapon.

 

[coinnut]

Good luck to you if you shoot someone. Mining laws or not. There are many laws that were initiated long ago (some as long ago as the late 1600's). Most would not hold up in court. Many should have been revised, but have not. I didn't hear anyone talking about that person actually hunting for any of that gold on his claim? Some people just like to tell others what not to do. If you don't own the property then you shouldn't have the right to claim anything PERIOD. That was long ago, in an unrealistic time. This is today, 2008. Hording a claim is what should be illegal. I agree with another post that this person is very angry and has not learned that life is short. When you die this claim is no longer yours. Does anyone really have the right to own it? Sometimes I think the Indians had it right. Respect the planet, its people, and utilize the land and crops and then move on. Good luck to you sir and I hope you find some peace in your heart.

 

[Mike Hillis]

Hi Tim,

Going back to the original post, That could have easily been private property. If a fence was crossed, then you know you're trespassing. However if it wasn't fenced off, how would you know? In that case you look for a map or a nearby neighbor to ask. Personally, I'd rather be found trespassing than claim jumping.

This is an example of signs that people are starting to use to help keep folks from stepping on each others toes : http://www.akmining.com/cart/min5867.htm however most of the time all you may find is a post with a tube nailed on it that has a copy of the claim form in it and boundry markers. If you run into one of the NO Prospecting signs, the next step is to find that post and tube and see where the boundries are. And no one will shoot you for walking around, just leave the detector in the car until you know where you are.

Also want to point something else out. Most folks who own or work a mining claim are friendly, decent people who easy to talk to, and who are quick to educate and forgive accidental mistakes. Some are friendly enough to even let you go beeping on their claim(s). But they also talk to their neighbors and if you turn out to be a common mistake going around, you'll find yourself waiting for a ride in a county sheriff's vehicle, and yes, you'll take the ride, and yes, the county will impound your detector and your car, and you will face a judge. So if want to do some prospecting, hook up with someone that knows the area, or failing that, just go out and scout ahead without your detector or gold pan on land that you know is public land.

Guess what, you can also legally prospect in the National Forests as well and you don't have to worry about claim jumping at all there. Can't file claims in Federal Forest lands.

Here is some good information on finding, marking and filing claims :http://www.nuggetwranglers.com/claim_filing.htm

HH

Mike

 

[Tim-PY]

[size=medium]Wow Mike, Great post. I appreciate you taking the time to share this information. This has been a very interesting thread, I have certainly learned a lot, from all angles! Sincerely, Tim[/size]

 

[Mike Hillis]

Coinnut,

The only ones that have said anything about shooting someone have been the ones that put themselves into the position of being claim jumpers. Go get caught stealing something from one of your local stores and see if they detain you for local law enforcement. Same thing here. You get caught searching for and stealing minerals from a mining claim and the claim owners have the legal right to detain you while they wait for law enforcement to arrive and file charges against you and have you prosecuted.

There is nothing wrong with the current mining laws. They allow regular 9-5 people like you and me prospect or mine or dream about hitting it big. There are well defined procedures in place and it works. Well, it works for everyone but Big Corp and Big Gov who dislike the 9-5 guy.

HH

Mike

 

[coinnut]

I guess we should agree to disagree. You don't shoot anyone when your life is not directly threatened, Period. You should not be allowed to hold anyone at gunpoint for property issues. Period. Take down a plate #, or whatever you need to in order to identify the individual, but do not stop someone from leaving. If that your idea of your rights, then let's just rename our country Russia or Cuba. This individual had no idea (no claim signs) that he was violating anyone's claim rights. I will never agree with claiming rights. What next air rights. That is state property, not your property. I stick by my words. The laws should be changed. Do you pay any property tax on the land, that you claim it's minerals, or do you just rob that land? I think you should pay taxes on the land along with taxes on the profit from your finds. Why should you be exempt? The towns and cities your claims are on, need the money too. After all isn't it their land you are taking things from?

 

[licn2chill]

We all seem to be forgetting one very important fact here. First of all, was the trespasser actually walking away carrying a bag of gold nuggets or was he, as I understood the first few posts, "just metal detecting"? No theft involved. There's a big difference here as far as anyone being toted off to the local jail. Any law enforcement officer would find this out first, then proceed to educate the trespasser of his violating a mining claiments rights, but in this day and age, I seriouslly doubt that he would take anyone into custody for that violation. When's the last time anyone read in the papers about anyone being arrested for trespassing upon a claimsite when we have all this other "violent" crime going on, and our jails full and inmates being released early due to overcrowding. There would be a much more serious matter here to deal with, and that WOULD be the claim owner pointing and holding a (citizen) trespasser (whose alibi would be that he didn't know he was trespassing) with a firearm. I can picture it now, the law enforcement officer or officers would arrive Code 3 (sirens and lights due to the very mention of "I'm holding him at gunpoint") see the miner holding a firearm on the trespasser, and would immediatly draw down on the miner ordering him to drop or lay down the firearm. Seperate the two and collect identification and then sort out the story. End result, the trespasser would have the opportunity to file a complaint with the district attorneys office against the miner for assault with a deadly weapon, possibly unlawful detention, etc, and at the very least, if push came to shove in court and he was actually cited under what law...duh, do you also believe that the law enforcement officer would actually know the correct code or section to cite the trespasser under or would it be a simple 602. PC (trespass) a Calif Penal Code Section, whereas the property "OWNER" must demand the trespasser to leave and then is only liable to arrest if he fails to do so when ordered by a law enforcement officerto do so, then the fine would only be for a low level misdemeanor. What a mess...the officers would more than likely tell the trespasser to leave and then have at the miner with the shooter and deal with laws, codes and sections which he knows and feels comfortable in dealing with as would his sgt. or supervisor that would have to approve his report following a complaint. What a mess! Anyway, that's just my thoughts on this situation. I still think BSMG needs to chill out.

 

[sandcrab]

licn2chill,
You got it there, the realview! More paperwork than its worth probably...

 

[bigfrank]

[quote Mike Hillis]Hi Tim,

Going back to the original post, That could have easily been private property. If a fence was crossed, then you know you're trespassing. However if it wasn't fenced off, how would you know? In that case you look for a map or a nearby neighbor to ask. Personally, I'd rather be found trespassing than claim jumping.

This is an example of signs that people are starting to use to help keep folks from stepping on each others toes : http://www.akmining.com/cart/min5867.htm however most of the time all you may find is a post with a tube nailed on it that has a copy of the claim form in it and boundry markers. If you run into one of the NO Prospecting signs, the next step is to find that post and tube and see where the boundries are. And no one will shoot you for walking around, just leave the detector in the car until you know where you are.

Also want to point something else out. Most folks who own or work a mining claim are friendly, decent people who easy to talk to, and who are quick to educate and forgive accidental mistakes. Some are friendly enough to even let you go beeping on their claim(s). But they also talk to their neighbors and if you turn out to be a common mistake going around, you'll find yourself waiting for a ride in a county sheriff's vehicle, and yes, you'll take the ride, and yes, the county will impound your detector and your car, and you will face a judge. So if want to do some prospecting, hook up with someone that knows the area, or failing that, just go out and scout ahead without your detector or gold pan on land that you know is public land.

Guess what, you can also legally prospect in the National Forests as well and you don't have to worry about claim jumping at all there. Can't file claims in Federal Forest lands.

Here is some good information on finding, marking and filing claims :http://www.nuggetwranglers.com/claim_filing.htm

HH

Mike[/quote]

Hey Mike. Some forest land and BLM land here is off limits to taking any mineral from land and waters on that land. So as you say, do your research before dragging out your detector or pan. Also, Dept. of Fish and Game is really hassling people up here in Northern California even for panning in the creeks and streams, even though it it totally legal to do so. Seems like kind of the trend in California.

 

[bigfrank]

[quote Mike Hillis]Coinnut,

The only ones that have said anything about shooting someone have been the ones that put themselves into the position of being claim jumpers. Go get caught stealing something from one of your local stores and see if they detain you for local law enforcement. Same thing here. You get caught searching for and stealing minerals from a mining claim and the claim owners have the legal right to detain you while they wait for law enforcement to arrive and file charges against you and have you prosecuted.

There is nothing wrong with the current mining laws. They allow regular 9-5 people like you and me prospect or mine or dream about hitting it big. There are well defined procedures in place and it works. Well, it works for everyone but Big Corp and Big Gov who dislike the 9-5 guy.

HH

Mike[/quote]

Mike, when was the last time you heard a Walmart employ hold a shop lifter at gun point? I dont see how your post is even a valid argument. The point is that this guy is fast to go to guns. Its a foolish thing to do. All he would have to say is this is my claim, and you are trespassing. If he asks you to leave, then do so. If he asks you to sat and wait for the police, he has the right to do so. If I decide not to stay, he would get vehical license information and convey that to the police. Pointing a gun at me for mear trespass or even "possible" claim jumping is pure foolishness in this day and age.

Frank

 

[bigfrank]

licn2chill, great post and absolutely correct.

 

[nero_design]

Hi from Australia.
I've noticed only a few small areas actually have "No Trespassing" signs posted here both near and on the goldfields. Some of the signs have plenty of shotgun and small caliber bullet holes in them so you tend to sober up when you see that. If you head further inland to the opal fields, things get a little more complicated with dynamite being used to booby trap the claims. I have it on good authority that there were a few throats slit there recently. The routine in the past was to drop the body down a disused shaft as some are plenty deep.

But on the lighter side, I find that if you're prospecting right near a road, it's usually not a big issue unless you jump a fence. I feel that UFOsAreReal (and yes, they most certainly are) was probably behaving quite reasonably in his assumptions and probably feels bad for being yelled at. Something I've been recommended here (and I'm sure our laws are similar yet different to yours) is to move along and exit any property if asked, not to climb fences and to be wary of private property. But it's sometimes suggested that if someone asks you to move along, you have the right to ask for identification and evidence that they are either the land owner or are in a position to do so in the first place.

There's a few "Greenies" here who have purchased a property in the bush or out in the country and they tend to buy "Keep Out" and "Private Property" signs and nail them up on Government Roads to prevent the public from accessing Crown Land or State Forests. Here in Australia, they don't have the right to stop you accessing these areas but they try to just the same. They're usually despised by the old timers and the actual locals. And if there's gold in the region, it's been my experience that Locals consider it all to be "Their Gold". These people see any outsider as an 'enemy', even if they themselves are not currently detecting. Same problem here in that locals who are about to retire can't stand the weekend interlopers who visit "their Goldfield" to "STEAL" their gold. They intend to go after it themselves when they retire and dread people that might be "stealing" (that's how they see it) what they themselves want to find in future years.

UFOsAreReal did the right thing by leaving when challenged in my opinion. It's much easier to just move on, even if you feel a bit bad about getting yelled at by a stranger. There's usually someplace else to try further along the road or river if you're nugget hunting. I imagine that even in America, anyone drawing a gun on you when you're clearly metal detecting and not posing a threat to you would be at risk of prosecution. If they asked you to leave and you refused to comply... well... that's hard to say. Anyone defending their property would still need to show why they felt you were such a threat that they needed to engage you with deadly force.

If ever you're in doubt, just stop by the local police station as I'm sure they could tell you if you are intending to prospect on public land or not.