Tone ID more accurate than cursor position. Seriously?

[wayne_etc]

I've read several times that the Explorer's tone ID will be more accurate than the cursor position. Here's something I don't quite understand. Isn't the tone based on the cursor? Or vise versa? Aren't they both based on the conductive / ferrous properties of the target? How can the tone be one thing and the cursor position be another? I don't know that I've ever noticed, say, a high "silver" tone with a corresponding middle-of-the-screen cursor. Is it possible?


w

 

[MNCoinhunter]

I know that Smartfind (cursor) and the Digital (numbers) are tied-in with each other. Not so sure about audio though...good question.

 

[dewcon4414]

True they are based on your setting Con or Ferr and the processor attempts to set the smartscreen and digital accordingly. But your brain processes sound better. You see those digital reading bouncing around but you ignore the occasional reading that is correct about the target visually. However, if you hear that occasional tone you tend to work it instead of walking away. Its not that the screens are wrong... but deep targets may only hit those CORRECT positions during a swing once or twice. Its not the screen ... but the tone that gets our attention. Trust me ...... learn the tones and try to use the screens as another way to determine whats in the ground.

Dew

 

[teleman2525]

i like to use all info i get but tone wins out i hunt mostly al metal in ferrous sounds get lots of mid to deep hits high left smart screen that turn out to be coins these give out a nice high tone if i used iron mask that far left i may not of heard these coins they would off nulled out i believe this may be due to my ferrous settings but not sure but this does happen alot so if high left sounds good dig also shallow coins hit this way but most of these arn,t some are old wheaties moral of story sound wins

 

[wayne_etc]

I thought with a cleared screen, ferrous sounds the more "right" you go the higher the pitch, but with conductive sounds the more "up" you go the higher the pitch.


Now I'm confused.


w

 

[dewcon4414]

Wayne... you have the gist of it.... but there are times when in trash ect that your screen does not keep up with the tones. A good example is if you are using to much IM or sensitivity. You may get several tones with out the cursor changing position on the screen. Targets in close proximity may both make a tone while the processor attempts to keep up and only the stronger signal may move the cursor.... sometimes to the iron because it knew there was a target but couldnt ID it.

Dew

 

[wayne_etc]

Yep. I have noticed that tones are faster than visual ID. The cursor position isn't accurate until a threshold returns, so then only the LAST object is reflected with a cursor position.

Right?


w

 

[dewcon4414]

That and sometimes the cursor doesnt move unless its a target of a different reading. Like nail ... nail ... nail ... pull tab.

 

[Dan-Pa.]

Most proficient Exdplorer users have good tonal hearing and without a screen would probably do well however remember the digital screen and the crosshair movement make it a 3 edged sword
and my feeling is spending a minute or so above ground analyzing a target is worth 5 minutes ripping thru rock and roots and hard ground during hot spells to get a deep junk target so use all the tools Minelab affords you...

 

[dewcon4414]

Most proficient Exp users know the crosshair movement and not a lot use the digital screen.. little too much movement. I dont think anyone will recommend JUST digging the tones... otherwise buy a SOV.

 

[Larry (IL)]

That is right Dew, it is not the cursor position but the cursor movement that helps ID the very deep targets for me. The digital screen just confuses me but I suppose one can learn to read the jumpy numbers the way I read the smartscreen. The audio and smartfind screen are equally important to me.

 

[surf n turf]

I think sound/tone trumps screen is a universal truth.

 

[dewcon4414]

There are many times i will dig regardless of what the screen is telling me.... especially in trash. To me thats where the SE excels.... people ignore these locations and there is still a fair amount of silver there. Now in open ground you can normally work various angles to get enough lock to tell what the target might be. We all dig iffy targets. I think the most confusing thing to someone just starting is on iron targets with its high tone you can manipulate it to repeat like a good target. Thats where a little more experience comes in.... moving around the target and realizing you was making it sound good.

Dew

 

[Southwind]

I've always kind of laughed when I see someone claim the audio is more accurate than the VDI knowing they both come from the same source.

Yes the audio can make it easier for some to hear slight audio nuances that can be interpreted as a good or bad signal, but those same slight nuances are also there visually for those who look and learn.

 

[Hotcz70]

I not only state that the audio is more accurate than the VDI...I preach it and teach it to anyone I hunt with as well as anyone who I give private lessons to.

It has paid dividends to each and every one of them who realize that sound is the key to the explorers...and the VDI is a secondary tool and aid which makes the explorers deadly.

The VDI is rendered helpless and in all honesty worthless on most 11" to 12" deep coins in my area...but the sound is still there.

Those same VDI "nuances" as you put it are not even there for a person to visually see on super deep coins OR coins hiding in iron.

On super deep coins...the VDI doesn't recognize them many times but the sound will come through. You will get no cursor flutter or action of any kind but you will still get a faint warbly high tone on extremely deep or masked coins. That is why many coins are still waiting to be found.

On coins hidden in iron...the cursor will head towards iron 9 out of 10 times...but again the sweet sound will still be there.

I also teach that cursor movement and flutter is an invaluable aid on deep coins ...BUT sound is the key and cursor flutter or movement is an aid to that sound and as Dan PA stated..."Makes it a double edged sword"

Wayne...YES it is possible. The last half dime I dug hit all the way on the right edge of the screen BUT over halfway down. It was nowhere near the top. In fact the cursor was in the bottom 50%...but the tone was a solid silver dime sound.

Always keep your mind open to new concepts and possibilities no matter what you read posted.

I got more than a few chuckles less than 3 years ago when I came out and stated I was finding deep silver while in a dead null with my SE.

Why?...because everyone said the machine would not signal on a coin while nulling. I assure you it will depending on how you set it up and how slow you go.

Since that time I have seen a ton of people stating they are finding coins while their machine is nulling...E-Tracs as well.

There are a lot of variables that can affect cursor movement and reaction time as there is with sound...but the sound will always be more accurate than the VDI to me. Just my opinion.

 

[Southwind]

Well I have only seen one detector that would make a sound and not display a VDI indicator as well. While I do understand the concept and value of using the audio, I also understand the value of knowing how to use the VDI as well. VDI is simply a visual representation of the same audio signal. Understanding what you see is just as simple/valuable and possible as understanding what you hear. For people like myself, understanding what you see is far more valuable than what you hear. As a selective hunter I don't rely strictly on one source of feedback unless I have no other options. I always make sure I have other options. My days of digging it all, or even those that the audio says it could be, are over with the exception of a few types of sites. Tot lots and beaches, maybe, but NEVER in our city park would I rely simply on audio feedback. I value my ability to hunt this site to much to dig a hole every time I got a sound I thought might be good. If I don't know it's good, I don't dig. Yes I do make a mistake now and then, but they are few and far between. When I leave, I leave with a hand full off keepers, and I've hunted by many, tone only hunters, who went home with all trash.

Now I am talking strictly my experience in my area. Of course it may be different for your area.

What a lot of people fail to realize is that for someone new to detecting it is much easier and quicker to learn what a VDI is telling you than the audio. The old belief was it was all about the audio, and that was true years ago. Not near as important today as it used to be. Technology is making audio less important. A good accurate VDI is a much quicker learning aid than try to explain what to listen for in audio. Not many have excepted that yet, but time will remedy that.

Take two newbies and send them to my city park. One with a Compadre and the other with a ACE 250 or F2 and see who comes home with the most keepers to trash ratio. We all already know the answer to that one. Now, and more importantly, hand both those people a Compadre a week later and I'll bet the one who had used a VDI detector will do better. They have more quickly learned what a good target looks AND sounds like. The VDI is a great learning tool even if you plan to use only audio.

Not saying knowing your tones/audio is not important but that a lot of people tend to try and make it as though it is all about audio only and it's not. A properly understood VDI is just as valuable and important as audio unless you plan to just beep-N-dig.

There are a lot of variables that can affect cursor movement and reaction time as there is with sound...but the sound will always be more accurate than the VDI to me. Just my opinion.

Key words being "to me" and I agree 100% It just so happens to me I put more trust in what I see and hear.

 

[Hotcz70]

to express opinions and share tips.

Compadres...ace 250's and F2's have absolutely nothing to do with explorers.

A person who learns to hunt by relying on VDI first and sound second is a person who will have their explorer listed for sale in the classifieds a few months later when they hunt with people who learned sounds first...then to use VDI as an aid...and who are finding deeper and iron laiden coins walked over by hunters who rely on VDI first.

I bet 9 out 10 people who are successfull with the explorers and have logged in a ton of hours will agree that sound is KEY to success.

Is VDI valuable...sure it is...and I have stated so a zillion times...but sound rules...hands down and anyone who truly knows the explorers will say the same thing..

Nowhere in my response did I state I hunt by sound alone on the explorers...nor do I "beep and dig".

I clearly stated that sound is key to the explorers...and that the VDI should be used as an aid.

To quote you..."A good accurate VDI is a much quicker learning aid than try to explain what to listen for in audio. Not many have excepted that yet, but time will remedy that."

I hate to say it,...but from a hunter's standpoint I hope some people think you're right...cause' that will leave many walked over and missed coins for me to find in my area.

As a moderator and doing what I feel is right to benefit the explorer user though...I hope most new users don't see your response....because if they choose to opt for the quicker short term learning of the explorer...they will probably be more likely to have the unit for sale a few months down the road because it "didn't find what some of the more experienced hunters were finding"

Taking the quick and easier learning route might add a few initial coin finds to the new explorer user but learning the machine by sound first and using the cursor placement and movement as an aid makes the explorer an absolute weapon...and will add many better, deeper and iron laiden coin finds to the pouch that the VDI never even reacted to.

 

[dewcon4414]

Southwind if you want to dig less you best take Bryces advice. Sorry but you are dead wrong about the Explorers in that they will make a tone and the screen wont move. Take it into a very trashy area and crank it up and see how often the smartscreen moves. BUT... you will hear repeated tones over every target if you move slow enough. Deep silver really deep silver takes listening not watching the screen. Really deep targets jump all over the place if you have seen any of Mike Moutrays screen posts you know what i mean.... but the tones dont false like the screen. Bryce hunts very much like you he doesnt dig nearly the targets i do but i believe his impressive finds speaks well for hunting by tones. But we arent saying that the screens, direction of swing, as well as the tones arent important. We all use them to TRY to decide to dig. But i have a whole lot more confidence once i get that sweet tone regardless of what the screen is telling me.

Dew

 

[BJ in Okla.]

But in a null,,,,the numbers or the cross hairs will be locked up,,But the tone will be there, right ???

I did hit one site that in a deep null,, with all kinds of iron and big nails, with a tab on top of the pile of nails, I could not hear the tab, and I could see the tab.
I was using the X-5 coil, no way could I hear that tab,,, but, how many times do you hit a place like that....I wish that I would have tried AM mode in iron mask...
I was using Ferrous sounds.....

Use to use a Sovereign xs with the Sun Ray DTI 2 and 3 meter, and used the Tones more than the meter.
If I had to pick only one tool to use, I would pick the tones over the meter and no tones or one tone....

I some times hunt with a friend that uses a old 1265x, no head fones, in the over 10 years that I have hunted with him, he has stayed with the 1265x, while I have tried other units.
To me its just a one tone unit with no meter, but to him, he hears changes in that one tone, and he has made some real good finds, for the area's that we hunt.
Sites that are full of all kinds of trash, iron,,nails,,tabs,,screw caps,rusty bottle caps...All he uses is a 8" and 3.5" coil....He has never used a metered unit as long as I have hunted with him....Yes, he digs a lot of trash,, but so do I, and I have a meter and Tone ID....

So, I think it comes down to how well you know the unit that you are using.....It does not matter what unit you are using, if you don't get a loop over something good, you not going to find anything good....One guy that I know, feels that the more targets he digs, the better his luck is that he will find something good...


BJ

 

[BJ in Okla.]

Wayne,,,
you are right,,
(((Yep. I have noticed that tones are faster than visual ID. The cursor position isn't accurate until a threshold returns, so then only the LAST object is reflected with a cursor position.

Right? )))

Try this,,,,get some targets, nail, iron, tabs, nickel, clad and silver coins, zincs, Indian heads.....
You can do this inside...
Take the coil off your Explorer, remove the shaft.
get a chair, a car-board box, put your coil on the box, away from anything metal,, and hook the coil back to your Explorer.
Turn the unit on, turn down the sens to like 22 and put it in Auto.
Do the noise Can.,,,,I have found that CH. 1, my unit is crazy in the house....
Go into Iron Mask, and open up the screen to AM. Screen is clear, no black..
Now with the unit in Con. sounds, check the targets, see where they read with the numbers and smart screen and what they sound like...
Then check the targets in Fer. sounds and see where they read, and what they sound like.

In Ferrous sounds,, the silver or clad dime will be top right hand corner And high tone and
the nail will be to the far left.....and a low tone....A rusty bottle cap will read in the smart find screen all the way over to the right side of the screen and down a little over have way down..

The blacker the screen, the more disc,,the longer the unit will stay in a null....The null is caused by all the stuff that has been disc'ed out....

I hope I got this right, I know what I want to say, but my fingers don't,,,lol....