Thinking on moving to a Vaquero, Question about it

[Topo]

Hi guys

Since some months ago I've been thinking in buying a Vaquero, I've read the reviews on various sites and is quite impressive, but I have some questions. how is the Vaquero's response with aluminum? is the tone different? do it work fine discriminating aluminum without compromising gold seeking?

Currently I'm using a bounty hunter tracker IV, because I don't like digital screens, it's a great machine for the price but has some limitations

 

[sqwaby]

The V is a good machine, it does however love aluminum. You can disc it out if you want to cherry pick, or you can learn what it sounds like( sharper and louder) and avoid it that way or by thumbing the disc.

 

[Topo]

cool, its more or less the same way i do with the tracker.

I heard that the Vaquero does well discriminating iron, and can find gold in ironed ground, thats one of the reasons why it seduces me

 

[dahut]

"how is the Vaquero's response with aluminum? is the tone different? do it work fine discriminating aluminum without compromising gold seeking?"

ALL detectors will find aluminum. It is a highly conductive metal, so suggesting one detector or another likes it better than say, gold or silver, is ill considered.

Both gold and aluminum generally fall together into the same range of electrical conductivity. I have used a Vaquero for some years now and I can tell you it has the same response to aluminum as it has to any gold target, which is:

it goes BEEP, as it is supposed to.

The fact that aluminum is most commonly presented as large, easy to find pieces of trash explains why it signals with loud harsh responses. But, I have recently found many aluminum tokens, coins and even a dog tag, all of which signaled cleanly without problems, right in the midrange - with other midrange targets like pulltabs.
A few years ago, I found an entire set of 18K front teeth with the Vaquero. They weighed in at over half an ounce. They also sounded just like any common screwcap, and thumbing the DISC control reinforced that.

So don't be fooled by the recent claims that the Vaquero loves aluminum more than other things. The Vaquero finds metal, period. What sort of metal is determined entirely by how you set your DISCRIMINATION, how you manage the instrument and where you search.

PS - If you intend to prospect for gold electronically, then I suggest you get a purpose built gold detector. If you want to find jewelry, on the other hand the Vaquero will do fine. All you have to do is set your DISC at the preset and dig everything that signals cleanly.

 

[Topo]

Hey dahut

yes, Im looking for a machine to find jewelry, just one question. How is the Vaquero detecting gold chains? Im asking you this because this is one of the main reasons why Im planning to upgrade, my tracker IV has a hard time with gold chains

 

[dahut]

Hey dahut

yes, Im looking for a machine to find jewelry, just one question. How is the Vaquero detecting gold chains? Im asking you this because this is one of the main reasons why Im planning to upgrade, my tracker IV has a hard time with gold chains

I'm always curious why people fixate on gold chains. Is it the belief that any detector that will find chains, will find other things even better? Or is it that chains are seen as sort of a "last frontier," which everyone else misses out on?
Except for the larger ones, there is little actual gold in chains. Even at today's spot purchase prices for gold, they represent a small increase in worth over other finds one might make. On average, one decent ring will be worth more than several chains.

Now, the Vaquero is probably one of the better detectors for gold chains. At lower disc ranges it may at least detect them, where most detectors won't. Typically, chains give a broken signal, near the foil range. SO again, plan to dig everything.

Now for the bad news. Most small chains will be missed by the Vaquero. It isn't the detectors fault, it is the nature of the business. Chains are more air than metal, and even when bunched they are very hard to detect. Induction field detectors like our VLF's require some minimum target surface area in order to generate a response. Chains don't have it. A slightly higher frequency cant make up for a lack of it.* Greater gain only makes things unstable.
The fittings and fixtures of the chain may offer enough of this conductive area, and I suspect that most of the smaller chains that are detected are the result of these. Yet, in my experience, even these are doubtful in the trashy "real world" where we detect.

Simply put, smallish gold chains will test your skill and willingness to recover minute trash. I'll bet you wont see gold chains jumping from the ground, simply because you are using a Vaquero. I didn't.

I would humbly recommend you get one for other reasons.

* Jewelry gold (9K-18K) is alloyed with copper, tin, manganese and a few other metals. The lower the carat, the LESS gold that is in the item and the more of these others. This actually moves golds natural conductivity higher up the range - offsetting somewhat the benefits of a higher frequency. As it turns out, the optimum frequency for general purpose detectors is between 12 and 15khz - just what the Vaquero uses!

 

[Topo]

im not fixated on gold chains, I just think is easier to find a gold chain than a spanish medallion

 

[dahut]

im not fixated on gold chains, I just think is easier to find a gold chain than a spanish medallion

Perhaps 'fixate' wasn't the right word, although I don't think it was too far off for some folks.
If you listen around on these forums, it seems to be a never ending topic.

So what you are saying is that the chain is in greater abundance than something like a Spanish medallion, etc.?
You are correct, 99% of the time. I have never found any pieces of eight, nor do I know anyone who has, although they do turn up from time to time.
But if we are to be frank, I've never found many chains, either... in over two decades of looking. The best chain I did find was eyeballed while detecting, in fact! If they were common or easy to find, you'd see a lot more of them.

You wouldn't be the first chap wanting a detector to reliably find gold chains. Most of us dream of it, at some point. When they make one, you can bet the line will be long to get them. Until then, we are faced with a different reality, i.e., if there are indeed gold chains in abundance, we do not currently have the technology to find them with certainty. The Vaquero is, sadly, no guarantee - I wish it was!

I still consider the chain, itself, to be an exception rather than the rule.

 

[Neil]

im not fixated on gold chains, I just think is easier to find a gold chain than a spanish medallion

thin gold chains, like earrings, are also the smallest valueable we can find with our detectors when small iron is disced out. I think thats what makes them so talked about, a detectors ability to find one shows great range would you say

Ive only found a few of them but really get a kick out of doing so, an earring the same way, not a silver one but a gold one. like dahut says, not much value, but impressive to find, to me anyways.

what the heck, if your hunting for gold you wanna be able to find even chains/earrings.

the vaquero does good at it(make sure to supertune to help it out) and the Tejon does even better at it

dont forget a thin gold ring on end is gonna give a small sound also like a chian, and earrings sometimes have those clear stones in them, what are they called......diamonds

Neil

 

[Topo]

hi dahut

Its good to know Im not the only one , very interesting what you said:

Jewelry gold (9K-18K) is alloyed with copper, tin, manganese and a few other metals. The lower the carat, the LESS gold that is in the item and the more of these others. This actually moves golds natural conductivity higher up the range - offsetting somewhat the benefits of a higher frequency. As it turns out, the optimum frequency for general purpose detectors is between 12 and 15khz - just what the Vaquero uses!



and Neil

how is you experience with the Tejon, you know... I've heard that some folks find the Vaquero more stable than the Tejon on Highly mineralized ground, what's your opinion?

 

[digitaltim]

I think the tracker was on of my first detectors......its a good detector for cheap, but night and day when compared to the tesoros....especially the vaq

 

[Topo]

Hi digitaltim

yes the tracker is a good detector for beginners and as a backup unit, but as a main detector Im finding limitations, especially when iron is present

did you pass form the tracker to the Vaquero? how was your experience?

 

[Old Katz]

Hi Topo:
I just got my Vaquero and I can agree with the others, The V loves Aluminum but like they said
you can discriminate it out or you can learn what it sounds like. I'm still learning obviously. I
think you made a good choice in detectors. I have the Ace 250 whic is a decent machine but not much
by way of optional coils, and I have the MXT. The Vaquero will never replace my MXT but while
its in the shop the Vaquero is doing a good job for me and will be a great back up detecdtor.
I had thought about the SIlver Umax and the Cibola, but after so much deliberation settled on the V.
I don't think you will regret buying the Vaquero or the Cibola. The V has manual ground balance but not the Cibola.
If you have mild ground conditions you probably can get along without it. I went with the Vaquero just in case
I ever do run into nasty ground conditions and need the GB.

Good luck.

Katz

 

[digitaltim]

I went from the tracker to a Fisher CZ7a..... I did keep the tracker for backup / friends to use for a few years....bought and sold 3 of them..... I was hung up on Target ID machines for a while before I finally came to rest with Tesoro Beep N digs... I tried many detectors just trying to figure out what fit me best.....I also bought and sold some just so I could use multiple detectors on the same site.

My first Tesoro was a Vaquero....I was amazed at its ability, but I think I had the sensitivity too high much of the time and I found myself digging the smallest pieces of foil etc....I was previously using a CZ-20 and it didn't talk to me as much as the single tone Vaquero does......after the vaq experience I couldn't wait to try a Tesoro TID and I sold it for a Cortes........I didn't care for it........I tried the Tejon..........then stepped down to a Cibola and had a ton of fun with it ...I wanted to try a Silver Umax , bought one and actually preferred it over the cibola so sold the cibola..... I spent the last year with just a Compadre and Silver Umax........bored, I bought another cibola, sold the compadre..... I really wanted a machine with ground balance so I gave the cibola ground balance and plan to keep my modified Cibola / Silver Umax combo for a while. Honestly, the economy has hurt me badly this year and if I had the $ I would have bought the Vaquero again..... I'm actually more than thrilled with the modified cibola and I'm glad I was able to save $

Going from a tracker IV you might be thrilled with just the compadre ;-) .....really any of the Tesoros are a step up........ you'd prob never out grow the Vaquero though, but it can be a lot if you're just starting in the hobby.....

HH

I just want to add. I once found a golf club with the BH tracker IV not far from a large cent (found with minelab)....It had a stone head (granite I think).........kind of neat...if I had been using any of the previously mentioned tesoros I would not have dug it. I dug all sorts of weird things with the BH, most were just junk though

 

[Neil]

hi dahut

Its good to know Im not the only one , very interesting what you said:

Jewelry gold (9K-18K) is alloyed with copper, tin, manganese and a few other metals. The lower the carat, the LESS gold that is in the item and the more of these others. This actually moves golds natural conductivity higher up the range - offsetting somewhat the benefits of a higher frequency. As it turns out, the optimum frequency for general purpose detectors is between 12 and 15khz - just what the Vaquero uses!



and Neil

how is you experience with the Tejon, you know... I've heard that some folks find the Vaquero more stable than the Tejon on Highly mineralized ground, what's your opinion?

First let me say I dont believe what dahut says about gold is correct, the part you have quoted in this thread. I believe golds conductivity is just below copper and copper is just under silver, and silver is the top of the list so any metals added to it should lower its conductivity,not raise it.
Im no electrical guy so someone who knows for sure please jump in and clarifiy.
What I do know for sure is Ive got a mans wedding band I found that is 22k and it reads like a zinc penny. similiar sized mens rings in either 14 or 10k are well below it, down in the pulltab range just above a nickel. so it sure seems to me when you add metals to gold the conductivity drops

On the Tejon, I dont hunt mineralized ground, Im in NJ and its pretty mild around here. The Tejon takes a little more finesse than the Vaquero. Its not everything to have a detector run real smooth, its better sometimes to have it a bit jittery and you have to remember the Tejon has the two discs, so you can check targets via the trigger, also you never loose the pinpoint feature like when you supertune the Vaquero. and that pinpoint feature isnt just about pinpointing, you can use it to check your GB from time to time quickly. My Tejon runs real smooth, I usually push it to jittery by the way
Neil

 

[dahut]

Very interesting what you said:

Jewelry gold (9K-18K) is alloyed with copper, tin, manganese and a few other metals. The lower the carat, the LESS gold that is in the item and the more of these others. This actually moves golds natural conductivity higher up the range - offsetting somewhat the benefits of a higher frequency. As it turns out, the optimum frequency for general purpose detectors is between 12 and 15khz - just what the Vaquero uses!

First let me say I dont believe what dahut says about gold is correct, the part you have quoted in this thread. I believe golds conductivity is just below copper and copper is just under silver, and silver is the top of the list so any metals added to it should lower its conductivity,not raise it.

Here is the scale of electrical conductivity for various metals, pertinent to us as detectorists.
Copper is the standard, at a scale value of 100

Aluminum 59
Brass 28
Chromium 55

Copper:
Hard drawn 89.5
Annealed 100

Gold 65

Iron:
Pure 17.7
Cast 2-12
Wrought 11.4

Lead 7
Nickel 12-16
Nickel silver 5.3(18%)
Phosphor bronze 36
Platinum 15
Silver 106
Steel 3-15
Tin 13
Titanium 5
Tungsten 28.9
Zinc 28.2

Bsed only on these numbers, I may have had it reversed. Aluminum @ 59 and gold @ 65, places them pretty firmly in the middle - but gold IS slightly higher than aluminum, although not by much.

Alloyed gold may not be the cut and dried thing that this suggests however. There are factors at work that can affect it's respnse, which are not related to the electrical characteristics of pure gold. At least enough so that sweeping declarations about it's behavior are fallible, either way.
Regardless of its composition, it doesn't move much on the scale.

But one thing seems pretty sure - we're right back to the tried and true motto of every successful gold jewelry hunter: "If It Looks Like Foil, A Nickel or A Pulltab, DIG IT!"

I think maybe I had better watch just where I put my foot in the future - or it may end up in my mouth!

 

[Topo]

wow! great opinions guys, I'll read this thread more than once

 

[trueblue]

If I wer after small gold I'd go with one of Tesoro's ED180 detectors ,I belive of the current lineup the only true 180's are the Compadre & Tejon

 

[tvr]

If table is accurate, I don't know how I ever find lead, but I do, with iron discriminated out.

Anyway ... on the subject of small link chains, laying on top of the ground ... some of the finer linked chains my wife has I can not see at all with my CZ6a or CZ20 in autotune (allmetal) but can see them with the Compadre, Cibola and Tejon detectors I have, set with small iron nails discriminated out. Can't see them very deep, inch or two at best but the Tesoros see them. The CZ's are very good detectors, just don't seem to have the sensitivity to very small pieces of metal that the Tesoro VLF detectors have. Also means chasing all the tiny bits of aluminum too. That's the tradeoff. I don't ever dig aluminum slivers the size of pencil points with the CZs, I do with the Tesoros.
tvr

 

[Neil]

Very interesting what you said:

Jewelry gold (9K-18K) is alloyed with copper, tin, manganese and a few other metals. The lower the carat, the LESS gold that is in the item and the more of these others. This actually moves golds natural conductivity higher up the range - offsetting somewhat the benefits of a higher frequency. As it turns out, the optimum frequency for general purpose detectors is between 12 and 15khz - just what the Vaquero uses!

First let me say I dont believe what dahut says about gold is correct, the part you have quoted in this thread. I believe golds conductivity is just below copper and copper is just under silver, and silver is the top of the list so any metals added to it should lower its conductivity,not raise it.

Here is the scale of electrical conductivity for various metals, pertinent to us as detectorists.
Copper is the standard, at a scale value of 100

Aluminum 59
Brass 28
Chromium 55

Copper:
Hard drawn 89.5
Annealed 100

Gold 65

Iron:
Pure 17.7
Cast 2-12
Wrought 11.4

Lead 7
Nickel 12-16
Nickel silver 5.3(18%)
Phosphor bronze 36
Platinum 15
Silver 106
Steel 3-15
Tin 13
Titanium 5
Tungsten 28.9
Zinc 28.2

Bsed only on these numbers, I may have had it reversed. Aluminum @ 59 and gold @ 65, places them pretty firmly in the middle - but gold IS slightly higher than aluminum, although not by much.

Alloyed gold may not be the cut and dried thing that this suggests however. There are factors at work that can affect it's respnse, which are not related to the electrical characteristics of pure gold. At least enough so that sweeping declarations about it's behavior are fallible, either way.
Regardless of its composition, it doesn't move much on the scale.

But one thing seems pretty sure - we're right back to the tried and true motto of every successful gold jewelry hunter: "If It Looks Like Foil, A Nickel or A Pulltab, DIG IT!"

I think maybe I had better watch just where I put my foot in the future - or it may end up in my mouth!

Dave heres the one I have bookmarked:
Thermal and Electric)
Base copper=100

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Metal Relative Conductivity
Thermal Electric

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aluminium 56 62
Brass 28 25
Bronze (Phosphor) 28 38
Copper 100 100
Gold 76 71
Iron 17 17
Lead 9 8
Mercury 2 2
Nickel 20 25
Platinum 18 16
Silver 108 105
Steel 13-17 15
Tin 17 15
Zinc 29 30

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wonder how many charts are out there with different numbers? We all think of gold as a low conductor but actually it seems its what its alloyed with that draws it down into the range"we must dig" if we are to find it.
Also size matters or mass or whatever its called. Ive got a few 18K rings that read high pulltab range yet some small 18k earrings I found are down well below a nickel.
Neil