Still Strugglin'

[Cliff KS]

with my F75. Got it back from repairs for the second time on 09/24. They said it was a bad coil again. I have used it for about 6 hours over 4 sessions and although it seems more stable, I still can't seem to get very many clean repeatable signals with it or "tight" TID readings. The most solid clean signals I get are from D ring pull tabs (good strong audio tone and TID 48-49 if straight/45-46 folded) and crown bottle caps (good strong audio tone and TID 24-25). Everything else gives chirpy/clipped/scritchy/skipping tones and/or different tones from different directions and TID's vary by 10, 20, or even 30. As it was getting dark tonight, I was over some small object that jumped from 90's to 20's to 70's to 50's. What am I suppose to glean from that type of widely (wildly) varying info? I didn't dig, I just got disgusted, turned it off and came in the house. I will have to go back to that object and dig it some time when I am in a better frame of mind. My settings tonight were:

Sens: 60
Disc: 15
Notch: 1
Tone: 3H
Process: DE
GB Fast Grabbed at 63 and set 3 positive to 66.

I have used the same settings on the other 3 sessions except sometimes I turned the sensitivity down as low as 40, but it didn't seem to make much difference.

Are the type of results I'm getting normal or is something still not right with this unit? This thing is driving me nuts because the audio and TID numbers usually seem to be "all over the place" and I can't reach any consensus on what the possible target might be. I have just re-read the prior message string titled " My F75 isn't really chattery, I can't seem to get a clean signal with it" and didn't get much out of that other than I might try Streak's idea of comparing FastGrab with Manual GB and see if they match.

Any other ideas someone could suggest? I would appreciate any help I can get here, as I am at a loss.

I got the F75 because it was being pushed as being better around iron and deeper, but I really haven't found it to be better at either one compared to my CZ-70. How do others who have both find them in comparison?

 

[bhershey]

I've read a number of posts like this and I'd like to take a swing at it (pun intended!).

Everyone knows how sensitive this machine is and what a fast response you get... this is by design.. you're gonna hear and see what's under the coil at every moment. Imagine swinging over a very small non-ferrous piece if metal at 6" or so in depth. You'd expect this Fisher to sound off, and it does on the first swing over it. Now what happens when you swing back in the opposite direction and your coil isn't lined up EXACTLY in the same position and height over the target as the first pass?.. you could get a different ID, then you swing back again in a different position and still another ID. Some detectors "lock on" because the engineers have picked a range of raw electrical response and mapped that to a specific ID. The F75 comes along and wow, so much processing speed with so little power drain, why not offer the public a few more steps closer to those raw signals?

When someone with an F75 says it "locks on", that tells me they have a very good grasp of swinging mechanics, intentionally or just from lots of practice and attention. They've trained their sight and arm movements to make small adjustments to get that little piece of metal in the center sweet spot. Once the center is found, they replicate the swing speed, position and height in all directions and see a stable number.

I hear many people say you should put 20, 30, 40, 50 or more hours into a new machine before you can experience the full potential... I've never agreed with that. Using myself as an example.... I found more with the C$ in my first week than any week that followed. Some may remember all my posts here long ago with lotsa old yard goodies at most every outing with a brand new machine. Why do I NOT suffer steep learning curves... mostly because I pay attention to my swinging mechanics when I investigate a signal that gets my attention.

So center that signal and then imagine the coil is on rails and ball bearings sliding across the signal. Pick one angle, one height, one position and duplicate it over and over. Work with your arm and the angle of your elbow and shoulder until you can move that coil as smooth as silk... then you'll see your numbers "lock on" with much higher frequency!!

I'm so anxious to get an F75... soon baby soon!
Brian from Lancaster, PA

 

[digitrich]

I'm gonna buy the smaller coil next week for it and if that doesn't help any then it's the machine and they are going to fix it.

 

[Scully]

Set the coil up on a cardboard box, away from all metal, use the settings you described, and wave targets across the coil. Do they lock on and ID number really well? If you cant get good readings this way I would contact your dealer. But it may just be that you have not gone over any good targets yet. The F75 will jump around on trash objects, and you will see the depth and confidence settings jump as well. Good targets are unmistakable in my opinion, even the deep ones the numbers remain relatively constant or only alter a small amount. Try a few other sites, see how it reacts.

 

[Mike Hillis]

n/t

 

[Streak!]

for better Id results, you pretty much have to do exactly what the manual says. CENTER the target, and then make a good, fast and fairly wide swing over it. The Id will be MUCH better and a good deal more accurate.(audio wont be quite as good, but we are talking Id here). The problem with Id's is, you pretty much have to have a very shallow target, OR make the EXACT same swing every time, which is virtually impossible. One BIG mistake your making is, your not digging (I didn't dig, I just got disgusted, turned it off and came in the house...Your words....) your iffy targets to see exactly what they are. A good number of crappy targets WILL Id all over the place, and if you dont dig EVERYTHING for the first couple of months, you wont learn what the macnine is tellin ya.
Another mistake a lot of guys do is to compare signals from the new machine to the old machine. Here is a classic example. A friend of mine remarked after getting an X5, that "everything sounded like a bad target". Well it DIDNT sound like a bad target, it just sounded "different" on a good one than his last machine did.
My point is, you have to get the hours in with the 75 to really learn what it is telling you, and you HAVE to dig everything you beep over to learn it. (If you dont know what the target was, how in the heck can you make ANY determination how the machine is doing??).
I LOVE my 75, but mostly because I've taken the time to really get to know it. give it time. it will come. Streak!

 

[Cliff KS]

I hope you do well with the smaller coil, but I don't plan on investing another $150 until I feel I am going to be able to get some satisfactory use out of the $935 dollar machine I've already invested in. Once you have used the small coil awhile, please post how you are doing with it. Thanks!

 

[Cliff KS]

Thanks for your tips. I just did an air test with some clad coins and a wheatie. They all stayed within a 2 to 3 number range.

Maybe I have not been around enough good targets, as you suggest. The old farmsteads I hunt do not give up a lot of coins, but that is primarily what I am looking for.

However, so far the strongest, most identifyable signals I have had were for pull tabs, crown bottle caps, and shotgun shell brasses while other various non-ferrous pieces don't seem to give repeatable signals, which I thought was a little odd as I don't consider pull tabs and bottle caps good targets, but I am pretty certain what I have before I dig them.

I have also have quite a bit of iron coming in above my Disc setting of 15 and a washer or iron ring will often read in the 70's. I have also been fooled by several pieces of very thin flat iron about the size of a dime that will also read in the 70's and give a solid tone.

 

[AndyNM]

I have a question: After you set disc to 15 did you go to notch and pressed the menu button at 1 ? If you did that you notched the numbers from 1 to 7 back in (accepted) and the detector is in the high gain mode and displays and beeps on any iron target. If you did that go back to the notch setting and set the number to 2 and press the menu button again. Now 1 to 7 will be notched out (not accepted).

Andy,NM www.fisherf75.com

 

[Cliff KS]

Thanks for your thoughts. I always try to keep my coil at the same height and very level and swing straight side to side and not whip it in an arc and get the target centered under the coil.

Most say that this machine is fast and the faster the swing, the better and the manual recommends a fast swing for better TID's.

Question for all: What do you consider a fast and/or appropriate swing speed for the F75 -- feet/sec?

 

[Cliff KS]

Hey Streak. Thanks for the input. I have dug most targets, but that was mainly while dealing with coil issues (Fisher has replaced the coil twice). Don't seem to be making a lot of headway with the new coil yet, but still hopeful.

I have not had a TID machine before, but I thought it was suppose to help eliminate some of the digging eventually, by making certain types of items recognizable as junk on a fairly consistent basis. I think I have it down for D-ring tabs and steel crown bottle caps, but anything else forget it!

It just seems I am on information overload most of the time --both with audio and the readouts and don't see/hear any consistency with certain types of targets except what I have already mentioned above.

It certainly is a lot different than a CZ. It is tremendously noisier to me and after a while that becomes mentally fatiqueing to me. I could hunt for 4 to 6 hours at a time with the CZ70, but after 1 1/2 to 2 hours with the F75, I have had enough.

 

[Chris(SoCenWI)]

Your description exactly mirrors what I am getting and I'm pretty sure our machines are working right. I have found a several coins, they seem to make a good solid hit also- most of the time. I'm sure I need to put many more hours on and digging everything to figure out the iffies.

Chris

 

[Mike Hillis]

I know some folks are all metal dig it all type guys, but when learning a new machine it never hurts to limit your audio to what you can comfortably process, especially in your own yard.

I enjoy using this setup: Tone = 1F, Disc=24, Sens=55, Process=DE.

This set up lets you linger lazily over targets for audio input. For target id numbers you need to speed it up. Use the confidence bar to tell you what the proper sweep speed is for the target you're interested in. Vary your sweeps and see which one gives you the highest bars. Then check your numbers. If iron is still giving you a problem, drop your disc to 6, go to a 2F tone mode and notch out both high and low foil ranges. Leave the iron in. That will help with many of the iron falses. Never notch out the lower nickel range or you'll loose the older and deeper nickels, especially in my type of ground (highly magnetic and moderate to high minerals). If tab range alum trash is giving you fits, notch it out too.

Go to the Stat All Metal Mode, and turn down your all metal sensitivity to around 35. This will help your pinppiointing.

Fast Grab and don't raise your ground balance unless you just have to. One thing to keep in mind is that while in Disc mode, holding the coil stationary over metal thats within a special sweet spot range (roughly two inches from the coil) can sometimes simulate electrical interference chatter. I've ran into situations where high amounts of surface trash did this and I've reproduced it with a quarter in air tests. Try lowering or raising your coil if you experience this.

Good luck,

Mike

 

[Scully]

Scroll down the forum and find the post about iron targets fooling the F-75. Like all machines, large pieces or round shaped iron targets will fool most ID machines into thinking they are coins. They will ring up high on the meter. But watch the confidence scale and teh deapth meter, if they are opposite (one high while the other is low), chances are its a piece of iron. I read that post and tried it last weekend, I ID'd four targets in this way, that read high but had the mis matched Conf/deapth reading, and I mental said "iron". I dug them to be sure, and indeed they were iron. I now feel like I have a little bit more skill with this machine. That meter sure gives you a lot of information.

 

[Streak!]

I reread your post, and thought I'd add a thing or two. first off, try to keep it simple. Dont mess with the Gb too much. Just "fast grab" it and call it good enough. Setting the GB a bit positive WONT do anything except make it a bit quieter (wont add a BIT of depth) if your running it on the edge. Try staying away from multi tones for a while. Try just running one or two tones, with a Disc setting of around 18-20. When I ran 3H I got a LOT of squealing over iron, and it was very annoying. I usually run my disc at 6, and in two tones I hear an almost constant "iron" chattering in the background, but all the good signals ring in loud and clear. It just a matter of training your ear. I WANT to hear the iron, as most of my sites are colonial, and it tells me when I'm getting into a heavy use area. If you set your disc at 18-20 though, it will eliminate most of the iron chatter. (but at a higher disc setting you WILL miss some targets)
Dont spend a lot of time "screen watching". All it will do is make you dependant on it. Try the get used to using your ears primarily, and THEN look at the screen only when your analyzing the target. I wont even begin to look at the screen till I've already pretty much decided to dig. As I said, I run two tones, with the disc set at 6. I can hear all the iron down to 6, but for the most part, the only thing that will come in at the higher tone will be targets over 15 or so. 20 seems to be the breakpoint for good targets VS bad targets too, with most all good targets coming in a 20 or higher. (small pewter colonial buttons seem to be the only targets that come in at the "20' range). virtually everything else will be higher. Sooooooo, I just let the AUDIO tell me when to dig, and only use the VDI's to play the "gee, I wonder what this is " game. I'd leave a lot of good targets in the ground if I relied on the TID to tell me when to dig or not to dig. The 75 IS exceptional in iron ridden sites, but only if you learn what to listen for. If you look only for targets that ID well, or sound GREAT, you'll leave a LOT of them in the ground. I've been digging lots of good targets with the 75 lately in some pretty noisey ground, just be going slow and trying to let the machine do its thing. Its amazing how well it will "see' a target next to iron or junk. It far better than anything Ive ever used before, and I've used a few.. Its also the deepest machine I've ever used, especially in dry ground. My ground here is powder dry, as deep as you want to dig, and coppers and big flatties are STILL coming out of the ground at foot depths. I dug a nice little Masonic cufflink the other night at an easy 8-9 inches, and it was very small. It was a very soft signal, but repeatable. I've been very impressed with the 75's abilities so far. I dug a half decent 1803 half cent this am at a good 9-10 inches as well. Its turned all my old sites on again, so I know that machine must be doing something right!!
I think you just need to log a few more hours, and try to build a bit of confidance in the machine. I was on the fence for a while too when I first got the 75, but have preservered, and so far the effort has been worth it. You''ll reach a point when it will just "click", and then all will be right in the world.
Dont be afraid to experiment, and find what works for YOU. Your ground may be vastly different than mine, and you will have to taylor the machine to your ground and your likes. Im primarily a colonial hunter, and will dig any target that falls within the parameters I've set, regardless if how it ID's. If there is one thing I have learned over the years, is that no matter HOW good a given machine is at IDing targets, the best discriminator is your shovel. You just dont know till you dig it up.

 

[Streak!]

crap targets will be all over the place, and good ones tend to be solider with more accurate ID's. You still have to find the center of the target and swing over it at a fairly brisk speed to get a decent accruate ID though.......

 

[Streak!]

you STILL have to log many many hours on a new machine to to really get to know it. Like people, detectors all have unique personalities and languages, and they vary a LOT!!! What I might expect from one detector might be a bit of a stretch for another. The XLT was a fantastic machine, but its broad slow response was lightyears from the response say, of an X5. If one used an XLT for many years and then jumped right into an F75, there will be a steep UNLEARNING curve before one is comfortable with the responses of the 75. Its true, some DO adapt faster, but EVERYONE still has to put the hours in. Good swinging mechanics are very important, but even so, its virtually impossible to duplicate any given swing. I've noticed a trend over the years. As machine evolve and get deeper and more sensitive, ID characteristics have gone the other way. Mostly I think, because of "real time' unbuffered readings. the best machine I ever owned ID wise was my first black box 6000 Di Pro. I could tell not only if it were a silver dime in the ground (this was on not too deep relatively clean targets), but could also tell you if it were a Rosie, Barber or a Merc 90% of the time. The eagle Spectrum still ID ok, but not as good as the 6000. The XLT was worse than the Eagle, and the DFX is horrible!!! All the machines improved in most other areas, but steadily declined in the ID dept.
I think the 75 is a pretty easy machine to use, but you still have to log the hours to get to KNOW it..................

 

[bhershey]

hahaaaa, you're right! Grew up with a pool table and dart board in our basement den. Not too bad at horseshoes and hand grenades as well (was in the Army years ago). In my drinking days I used to amaze my fellow drunks on how many quarters I could bounce into a shot glass. There's a game at the local Hershey amusement park where you hit a metal launching device that sends a flexible plastic frog flying through the air into rotating, floating lily pads. Every trip I would win everyone in my group big stuffed animals because I'd get 7 or 8 out of 10 attempts.

Interesting to compare those activities with swinging a detector! I suppose I'm just bias in praising the mechanics of movement! hehehe

 

[Cliff KS]

Scully,

Thanks for reminding me about that post. I have been looking at the confidence bars, but not paying too much attention to the depth bars. I have been looking at the numeric depth reading when I pinpoint instead. I had forgot about comparing the confidence and depth bar readings to help identify iron with higher TID's.

 

[digitrich]

The smaller coil should be here the end of this week, so we'll find out. When I first got my EX SE, I thought it was bad, turned out it was me and once I learned it, there was nothing bad about it.