oscpeterson
New member
The WOT 15" DD you cant beat it for the beach on the sov gt
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Still Need Input- Deepest Of Larger Coils For Coins?
- Thread starter Critterhunter
- Start date
Critterhunter
New member
This was wrote in word and for some reason the site is not listing comas, colons, and what have you. Can't figure out why and don't fill like re-editing it...
I re-did the chart with more info. Here's all the coil weights listed in ounces, from lightest to heaviest, along with prices. Note that a "*" means somebody actualy weighed it. I
I re-did the chart with more info. Here's all the coil weights listed in ounces, from lightest to heaviest, along with prices. Note that a "*" means somebody actualy weighed it. I
Critterhunter
New member
What's weird about the site missing puncuations is I can see them while editing the message but they don't show up when posted. Anybody know how to take a word file and convert it to something the site will not change? I tried saving it as rich text first and using that but no luck. Either way, on to initial review of this coil and other info...
Got my used (but in mint condition with only a few hours on it) SEF 15x12 yesterday in the mail. First impressions are it
Got my used (but in mint condition with only a few hours on it) SEF 15x12 yesterday in the mail. First impressions are it
Critterhunter
New member
Nice little thread going on in the Etrac forum about the 15x12. Guy dug some silvers with it at a spot he didn't do as well with the time before with a different coil...
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?63,1152933
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?63,1152933
Critterhunter
New member
Are they? I have never heard that but haven't checked the length of that myself yet. If you are running a meter on the shaft that would be a mute point, since the meter has the length needed to reach the hip mount. Extensions are real easy and cheap to make. I'm planning on shortening all my coil cables anyway to just reach the box shaft mounted in the back, just in case I get around to eliminating the external meter and need that coil length to reach the box. If I had no plans to build my own meter I would be shortening those coil cables to just reach the stock meter, but really the distance to reach that (which I have elevated) is about the same length it takes to reach the box without the meter anyway.
All you need are some plugs to turn the cut off sections into extensions of various lengths. I don't want or need all that extra cable length on the coils or the meter to reach a hipmount, and will use an extension on the odd occasion that I do. IMHO it makes no sense why everybody is forced to suffer with the extra mess and weight just because some people won't have the box where it's supposed to be- on the shaft.
I'm estimating about 3 to 4 ounces of extra cable length weight (which would equal maybe 6 or so if I'm shortening the meter cable as well) but will have exact numbers soon when I cut them down. Minelab should have just provided an extension for those who wanted to hip/chest mount. If not in the box then just make it a cheap $10 add on to purchase seperately. The meter also shouldn't come with that kind of length, either, because the extension can just be plugged into that and wouldn't be needed for the coil since it would now only have to reach the meter.
I'm sure I'm coming off a little too strong with the above remarks as there are a lot of people who hip or chest mount. It's just for me I've never had to do that with a detector and it seems kind'a odd when I've used it. Every time I need to take a nature call off in the woods I feel like I'm hitched up to life support with the wires and straps I have to take off first.
All you need are some plugs to turn the cut off sections into extensions of various lengths. I don't want or need all that extra cable length on the coils or the meter to reach a hipmount, and will use an extension on the odd occasion that I do. IMHO it makes no sense why everybody is forced to suffer with the extra mess and weight just because some people won't have the box where it's supposed to be- on the shaft.
I'm estimating about 3 to 4 ounces of extra cable length weight (which would equal maybe 6 or so if I'm shortening the meter cable as well) but will have exact numbers soon when I cut them down. Minelab should have just provided an extension for those who wanted to hip/chest mount. If not in the box then just make it a cheap $10 add on to purchase seperately. The meter also shouldn't come with that kind of length, either, because the extension can just be plugged into that and wouldn't be needed for the coil since it would now only have to reach the meter.
I'm sure I'm coming off a little too strong with the above remarks as there are a lot of people who hip or chest mount. It's just for me I've never had to do that with a detector and it seems kind'a odd when I've used it. Every time I need to take a nature call off in the woods I feel like I'm hitched up to life support with the wires and straps I have to take off first.
Critterhunter
New member
Tony said:
Critterhunter said:
At least I tried to qualify my opinion. I'd like to hear your view on this and not a simple crack which does nothing for the conversation. For example, I could say something witty back like "Are you feeling a bit left behind because you own that old WOT coil? I don't blame you, because I just saw one of them on the Antique Roadshow.", but I won't do that.
Tony
Member
.....I was actually going to bed....seriously.
It wasn't my intention for you to
Man, I wished I'd read your previous 7 edits !
Enjoy your SEF coil (get onto the moderator for a SEF smiley), it is well regarded by everyone.
.....I had a good laugh with the "Antique Roadshow" thingy.
Happy hunting.
PS No edits here.
It wasn't my intention for you to
Man, I wished I'd read your previous 7 edits !
Enjoy your SEF coil (get onto the moderator for a SEF smiley), it is well regarded by everyone.
.....I had a good laugh with the "Antique Roadshow" thingy.
Happy hunting.
PS No edits here.
Critterhunter
New member
Tony said:
You're right. I just checked mine today and it's a good foot shorter than the 10" coil's length. Since I'm not going to hipmount my GT anymore (I hope) I say good for me and tough luck for everybody else.
Critterhunter
New member
Misunderstood what you meant, sorry. I know I tend to ramble on anyway and even put myself to sleep sometimes.
I fired up the 15x12 yesterday for the first time just to make sure it was working. Didn't really do any mask testing yet and air testing would be worthless with the amount electrical noise in my house. I did play with pinpoint though and found what Kered said to work perfectly. If you walk the coil towards your feet while sweeping it back and fourth the target will disappear just when it's at where the two coils meet at the bottom of the "V" on the top of the coil.
I hear people do something like this with the 10" and other coils but I've always found I could center the target in pinpoint just by hearing how it's slightly louder directly under the middle of the coil. Still, when I tried that with this 15x12 it was obvious that this thing has a much bigger hot spot area in the center which would make pinpointing my normal way difficult. Probably not with a little practice but I like how the "V" marks exactly where the target is by walking the coil backwards. Thanks for that tip.
If you notice the picture of the 10" over the 15x12 it's obvious that a round coil only has it's greatest width at a very small spot. With the WOT being 14.25" (?) it would be roughly as wide in the picture as the SEF is to the 10", but only dead center in a small area. The 10" and SEF have a 2" size difference and so does the WOT to the SEF. Thinking of it this way when looking at the 10" compared to the SEF coil you can see that the WOT is only going to be wider at a very small spot right in the center and then rapidly get smaller than the SEF coil over the rest of it's surface.
The SEF would also still be slightly taller than the WOT acrossed most of it's width. I'm still not sure just how this shape of coil works but would assume it gets the depth of a 15" with a much tighter detection line from tip to tail for better seperation. From the reports on how well this coil works in trash I'd assume that's right?
I fired up the 15x12 yesterday for the first time just to make sure it was working. Didn't really do any mask testing yet and air testing would be worthless with the amount electrical noise in my house. I did play with pinpoint though and found what Kered said to work perfectly. If you walk the coil towards your feet while sweeping it back and fourth the target will disappear just when it's at where the two coils meet at the bottom of the "V" on the top of the coil.
I hear people do something like this with the 10" and other coils but I've always found I could center the target in pinpoint just by hearing how it's slightly louder directly under the middle of the coil. Still, when I tried that with this 15x12 it was obvious that this thing has a much bigger hot spot area in the center which would make pinpointing my normal way difficult. Probably not with a little practice but I like how the "V" marks exactly where the target is by walking the coil backwards. Thanks for that tip.
If you notice the picture of the 10" over the 15x12 it's obvious that a round coil only has it's greatest width at a very small spot. With the WOT being 14.25" (?) it would be roughly as wide in the picture as the SEF is to the 10", but only dead center in a small area. The 10" and SEF have a 2" size difference and so does the WOT to the SEF. Thinking of it this way when looking at the 10" compared to the SEF coil you can see that the WOT is only going to be wider at a very small spot right in the center and then rapidly get smaller than the SEF coil over the rest of it's surface.
The SEF would also still be slightly taller than the WOT acrossed most of it's width. I'm still not sure just how this shape of coil works but would assume it gets the depth of a 15" with a much tighter detection line from tip to tail for better seperation. From the reports on how well this coil works in trash I'd assume that's right?
Critterhunter
New member
If anybody has a WOT they can lay under the 15x12 take a picture of it like I did for the 10" Tornado so we can see the difference in dimensions better to confirm all this.
Critterhunter
New member
I just ran across yet another thread where a guy stated the Explorer/Etrac was more prone to being noisy or eratic due to high minerals or electrical noise, getting less depth than a Sovereign in certain areas. How this relates to this thread is that I also read about a guy using larger coils who said they seem to do better on his Sovereign than his FBS machines because of this, meaning that larger coils on those machines tend to get noisy or eratic while the same versions on his Sovereign seem to run much smoother and deeper. The only reasonable guess I've read about this was that the more/higher frequencies of FBS machines can suffer from more noise or interference and/or might be reflecting off the ground minerals. Just a little blurb of interest I came across that is sort of related to these larger coils and the kind of performance you can expect with them on various machines. When I get the time I'll be posting condensed quotes from people on these coils and stuff like this as well.
Critterhunter
New member
Ra-Mo posted photos of a WOT laying over a 15x12. I'm throwing them up here as well since it goes along well with my photos of the 10" Tornado coil over the 15x12. Thanks again for posting those! It's obvious the WOT is slightly wider in the center but the SEF has slightly more coverage being longer from tip to tail. I just wonder which dimension matters most for potential depth. Right now I'm hearing most people say the SEF is deeper yet seperates better. If that's the case then I guess coil length from tip to tail determines depth and width determines how narrow the detection line is that goes from tip to tail.
Critterhunter
New member
Last night a friend and I were discussing various pros and cons of concentric versus double D coils and the coversation was very interesting. Pretty much we both agreed that DD coils seperate targets better than concentrics based on signal shape, but that at the very edge of it's detection depth a concentric can be very good at seperation because of it's cone shaped signal. Maybe still not as good as a DD coil, but even if it was it's still useful in only a very tiny spot at depth versus the much better seperation of a DD at any distance. This is contrary to how I used to think about these coils until I did some further research into coil dynamics with the intent to build my own coils.
Most people know DD designs handle ground minerals better because they present much less ground for the detector to "see" and thus the ground load is reduced. I always atributed this better stability to the mirror image design of DD coils in that they seem to be less picky at alignment versus the inner/outter ring designs of concentrics. For that reason many people who build coils at home prefer a DD. It's easier to tune properly and less finicky about it.
One of the old rules of thumb was that coils about 11" or bigger start losing sensitivity to coin/ring sized targets. Many people still believe this to be true but it's more due to concentrics dominating the market for years shaping that belief. Size relation to target size sensitivity isn't as much a factor with DD designs. Where most believe 12" is really pushing the point of deminishing returns for concentrics, DD coils in general are thought to be able to get up to about 14 or 15" in size while still retaining sensitivity to coin/ring sized targets.
For that reason we got into an interesting discussion. Would you rather have a 12" concentric or a 12" DD coil? The DD will maintain equal depth from tip to toe to avoid missing targets but the concentric should have just a hair more depth right at the very center of the coil. More than likely this tiny extra depth is only about 1/4 to 1/3rd of an inch, and you'd have to sweep precisely over the target with this tiny little spot to get that benefit.
On the other hand, concentrics quickly lose depth in any kind of minerals. Now a DD of equal size is getting much deeper than the concentric. Even if the concentric can match it in depth at most of your spots with the mineralization being very low, the DD design will quickly leave it in the dust depth wise once you decide to move further up in size to a larger coil. The concentric simply can not follow it to those depths by increasing it's diameter because it's losing sensitivity to coin sized targets.
For that reason alone one could probably argue that a 12" DD coil might very well be deeper than a 12" concentric even in ground with no mineralization. The sensitivity factor might make the DD see the target at the fringes of detection depth where the concentric has a hard time giving the target a good hit. This would be less of a potential problem for concentrics if they are say in the 10" or smaller range.
If anybody has further opinions on this I know my friend and I would both like to hear it...
Most people know DD designs handle ground minerals better because they present much less ground for the detector to "see" and thus the ground load is reduced. I always atributed this better stability to the mirror image design of DD coils in that they seem to be less picky at alignment versus the inner/outter ring designs of concentrics. For that reason many people who build coils at home prefer a DD. It's easier to tune properly and less finicky about it.
One of the old rules of thumb was that coils about 11" or bigger start losing sensitivity to coin/ring sized targets. Many people still believe this to be true but it's more due to concentrics dominating the market for years shaping that belief. Size relation to target size sensitivity isn't as much a factor with DD designs. Where most believe 12" is really pushing the point of deminishing returns for concentrics, DD coils in general are thought to be able to get up to about 14 or 15" in size while still retaining sensitivity to coin/ring sized targets.
For that reason we got into an interesting discussion. Would you rather have a 12" concentric or a 12" DD coil? The DD will maintain equal depth from tip to toe to avoid missing targets but the concentric should have just a hair more depth right at the very center of the coil. More than likely this tiny extra depth is only about 1/4 to 1/3rd of an inch, and you'd have to sweep precisely over the target with this tiny little spot to get that benefit.
On the other hand, concentrics quickly lose depth in any kind of minerals. Now a DD of equal size is getting much deeper than the concentric. Even if the concentric can match it in depth at most of your spots with the mineralization being very low, the DD design will quickly leave it in the dust depth wise once you decide to move further up in size to a larger coil. The concentric simply can not follow it to those depths by increasing it's diameter because it's losing sensitivity to coin sized targets.
For that reason alone one could probably argue that a 12" DD coil might very well be deeper than a 12" concentric even in ground with no mineralization. The sensitivity factor might make the DD see the target at the fringes of detection depth where the concentric has a hard time giving the target a good hit. This would be less of a potential problem for concentrics if they are say in the 10" or smaller range.
If anybody has further opinions on this I know my friend and I would both like to hear it...
Critterhunter
New member
This thread should probably be linked to this one concerning the pros and cons of various coils as well as the weights...
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?21,1120643,1130955#msg-1130955
I wanted to add this little blurb from the Explorer forum where somebody weighed a few coils. I rely on the weights posted by users more so than what a company says, as we all know how things get fudged in some situations...
"Hey Bryce, I weighed both the pro coil and the 10x12 with their bottom covers: pro coil= 1lb,3.75oz and the 10x12=1lb,10oz. The cover for the 10x12= 3.75ozs. I have take the cover off of my 10x12 making it within 2.50 ozs. It makes a big big difference to my bad shoulder. EddieB"
Notice that his FBS 12x10 weight is heavier than the one I listed back a page in this thread from an "official" source I think. I suspect the FBS versions of these coils are heavier than the BBS versions, because if I remember right (look at the chart) the FBS version of the 15x12 was much heavier than the BBS version. Either way, once the 12x10 gets here I'll weight it with and without the coil cover and update the chart with that as well as the above info. It's also handy to have the Pro Coil weight to compare things to for perspective.
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?21,1120643,1130955#msg-1130955
I wanted to add this little blurb from the Explorer forum where somebody weighed a few coils. I rely on the weights posted by users more so than what a company says, as we all know how things get fudged in some situations...
"Hey Bryce, I weighed both the pro coil and the 10x12 with their bottom covers: pro coil= 1lb,3.75oz and the 10x12=1lb,10oz. The cover for the 10x12= 3.75ozs. I have take the cover off of my 10x12 making it within 2.50 ozs. It makes a big big difference to my bad shoulder. EddieB"
Notice that his FBS 12x10 weight is heavier than the one I listed back a page in this thread from an "official" source I think. I suspect the FBS versions of these coils are heavier than the BBS versions, because if I remember right (look at the chart) the FBS version of the 15x12 was much heavier than the BBS version. Either way, once the 12x10 gets here I'll weight it with and without the coil cover and update the chart with that as well as the above info. It's also handy to have the Pro Coil weight to compare things to for perspective.