Sovereign Depth Compared To Explorer/E-Trac/Etc?

[Critterhunter]

I've pretty much come to the conclusion after surfing all the Explorer/Sovereign comparisons in both forums that it's a toss up for best depth. Most say they see no difference. Some say they think the Explorer is slightly deeper on silver, but then again this could be compared to older Sovereigns or ones using a smaller coi (GT is said to hit and ID deeper than previous Sovereigns). Some field comparisons found the Explorer would incorrectly ID a deep target as a coin when the Sovereign knew it was. One guy even found the Sovereign to give a solid signal on a deep coin that the Explorer was breaking up on, and that was with discrimination on the Sovereign maxed out and pull tabs notched out as well. The difference is so slight if any that how the unit is being set up or used by the operator probably is the deciding factor in most cases.

Besides all that, using a S12 coil, Shaun's Amp (not available for the Explorers), or internaly "performance tuning" the Sovereign would probably give it a more clear edge in depth. I bet even ground and weather conditions may favor one over the other on any particular day.

One thing I have read that's worth noting is that the Sovereign's VDI display is tied directly to the coil's output. As somebody has said before, what you see is exactly what you hear. Most machines, including the Explorer, have a disconnect between the VDI and the coil, and you are thus relying on the electronics to decide exactly how it should represent what it percieves the visual ID should be. While I know the Sovereign isn't exactly a barn burner is response time, at least I know there is no lag between what the coil reads and the VDI displays. It's instant.

 

[Art (NWOH)]

No internal adjustments for performance....only tone and threshhold volume.

Meter and audio are NOT tied to the coil....they are tied to each other and respond in accordance with how the electronics sees a target. All signals of any kind that are picked up by the coil are processed by the electronics before any audio or meter indications are determined .

Regulator is dual +-5v power supply. Takes a bit over 10 volts to run it. Min operating spec is 10.5v.

HH

 

[Critterhunter]

Only reporting what others have said, and since I haven't had the machine apart (yet) to do a little investigating I'll have to defer to you, since it sounds like you have. What others have said about the VDI being tied directly to coil output sounded logical to me since the meter is between the coil and the box. So the RX signal is bypassing the meter and going directly to the box, then being routed back to the meter? That seems a little strange, unless Minelab intended to offer an add on meter when the unit was built. That might offer some interesting possibilities, though...

No internal adjustments other than tone and threshold volume? Then what exactly is Dixie doing to performance tune the unit for $89? There has to be some internal tweaking that can be done here from what people have said about increased depth after doing that, even if there is no internal sensitivity control.

Min. 10.5 volts input voltage for the internal regulator should be very workable with a good 8 pack AA high capacity nimh. I've got packs that hold in the 11 to 12V range under load for several hours after charging. If anything, a 3 cell lipo should work wonders in both weight, size, and run time.

 

[Art (NWOH)]

Trust me....

Extra infoo...with most coils, operating current is between 50-60 ma. for the whole detector.

I think David changes some parts.

The only connections that the internals of the meter have with the coil are the two transmit leads. They feed the meter's internal power supply.
The signal ground from the coil's recieve preamp also makes connection to the meter circuit....which is really just a digital volt meter.
All three of these wires connect, but also pass through between the box and coil.The meter voltage that gives you the ID # comes from pin #5 of the box and only goes to the meter's sensing input.

The actual signal output from the coil's preamp goes straight through the meter to the box for processing. (pin#4)

HH

 

[Critterhunter]

Very good information. 50 to 60ma is very low to run the detector. I would have suspect it to be somewhere in the 300ma or so range, but then again that wouldn't jive with the manual stating that it gets 15 to 20 hours on a charged pack. 50ma at 20 hours = 1000ma, so that's right on target for run time.

I've been investigating the stock rechargable pack and found that there is a charging circuit behind the charging port. No, I didn't break the pack apart. I don't really trust the stock charger to not do a false peak and want to use my computerized Accucel 6 Turnigy charger, which gives me better control over peak threshold, displays capacity in/out to gauge the health of the pack, and allows me to control a few other things. I checked the pack voltage here and it's only around 2.5 to 3 volts on a fully charged pack, so obviously there is a charging circuit behind the charge port.

I am able to discharge/charge the pack via two alligator clips connected to the two battery terminals that connect it to the box when the pack is plugged in, bypass the charging circuit. I drained the pack at 100ma to 100mv to be easy on the cells and am now charging it at 100ma, which is what the stock wall charger outputs. I'm anxious to see exactly how much capacity the pack holds when it finally does peak terminate. About 3 drain/charge cycles on a pack once in a while will exercise the pack to full capacity potential. Some people think only nicads benefit from this but my experience says otherwise.

I've also found a easy solution to running the box off a 3 cell (in series =12.60 volts) lipo pack. It's easy to clip two mini alligator clips to the battery terminals on the box, eliminating the need to open it up to solder a power lead in. A 2250ma 3 cell lipo pack is smaller and weighs exactly 3.3 ounces lighter than the stock pack, and there is no need to even plug an empty battery holder into the bottom of the unit. These packs are around $28 from Hobby City and should at least double the run time. However, further weight savings could be saved by going to a 1000 to 1500ma lipo. I just have to be careful that I don't drain the pack past 9V as that will ruin a lipo and could also cause a fire. I figure on a 2250ma pack it'll do about 37 hours before the voltage gets critical, so I could easily do about 3 ten hour hunts without risking pack damage. I plan to recharge every two hunts to be overly safe.

Then again, if the internal regulator requires 10.5 volt input voltage perhaps the Sovereign will do a low battery alert well above 9 volts. That's something I'll have to test, as I'd suspect anything below 10 volts would not run the regulator. Have you checked that?

 

[Art (NWOH)]

You can expect slight differences in components between machines.
Never have hooked in a meter to see at exactly what voltage either of mine will crap out at.
When you get a pack run down to near 10 volts, the voltage will be dropping pretty fast, so at that point the exact shut down voltage won't matter much.
What will matter most is the condition of the cells. A couple weak cells can drop the voltage quickly and cut run time a lot faster than a bit of difference between regulators.

HH

 

[Critterhunter]

That's probably true, that variances in regulators will determine exactly where the unit signals low voltage. Individual cell voltage is critical on lipos, because if one cell drops below 3 volts it'll usualy kill it. Balance chargers are used to charge/terminate each cell individualy. One of the good things about lipos, especially ones with high C raitings like these in the 20-30 C range, is that they hold their voltage high throughout the discharge cycle until the near end.

These packs are designed to power brushless motors with high amp draws up to 40 amps or so without voltage drop, helping to keep the prop RPM high through the entire flight. It was a big step up in RC in terms of capacity, power, and weight compared to the nimhs and nicads we used to fly. Planes pulling 40 or 50 amps and producing speeds well over 100 miles per hour are not uncomon, and these are "little" planes with 3' wingspans and only weighing 20 to 30 ounces total. I scratch build mine out of EPS insulating "box" foam with a homemade hotwire cutter. Very fun way to spend the day.

For somebody who doesn't want to get involved in rechargables yet wants to save a lot of weight I'd point them to the Energizer Lithium AAs that can be bought at almost any store like Walmart. They have longer run times than regular AAs yet weigh a lot less than them. I was handed a bunch of these for free from some guy who works in the battery industry and can't believe the weight difference on my QXT Pro, not that it's a heavy machine to begin with. In fact, a friend recently picked up the machine and thought it didn't have any batteries in it.

 

[Art (NWOH)]

I know the QXT does not weigh much with ordinary batteries and will run down to 7-7.5 volts before it quits (after quite a few battery warnings on the display).
Very long run time on almost any batteries.

The weight of the pack and the coil make the SOV heavy...take both off and see how light it is.

HH

 

[UtahRich]

I just put together a 10 cell NiMH (2300 ma) battery pack for my XS-2a Pro. It is a snug fit in the housing but should provide a much longer run between charges than the AA throwaways. Following a full charge, I measured 13.7vdc on the pack.

I'm not sure what the pack weighs. I 'll weign it later and compare it against the standard 8-AA battery pack that came with it. Weight wasn't as big a concern when I started that little project. Using expensive throwaways and having batteries crap out during an all day hunt was my concern. If the 50ma applies to my older sovereign as well, that should give a LONG time between charges.

I picked up one of Pluggers balanced straight rods to replace the S-rod that came with my Sov. My older Sov came with the BBS 1000 coil, which weighs a ton or at least feels like it. I don't know that there's that much of a weight difference between the two search rods, but there is a definite difference in the balance of the detector when I load up the 10" BBS coil. Plugger's setup is much more comforatable to use. It places the housing further behind the elbow allowing it to balance the coil. I will put the searchrod on the scale as well if you're interested.

I stumbled across an 8" coinsearch coil with a 4' cable for a pretty good price. Using the coinsearch with the standard searchrod and configuration is a pleasure after using the BBS 1000. What a boat anchor. As a newbie, it appears to me that this coil was designed for beach use; non-buoyant and waterproof. The coinsearch coil it replaced was buoyant and not waterproof. Seems this is where the Sovereign design team turned down the road in favor of the beach/shallow water group.

After nearly 20 years on the market, I am still puzzled that Minelab hasn't come out with short cable versions (land versions) of some of the Sovereign coils. It would certainly clean up some of the cable mess for the land hunters. I have a SunRay S-1 coming and I am seriously thinking of ditching the BBS1000 in the closet and ordering an S-12 from SunRay and asking Ralph is he can do a 4' cable version for me. (Anybody have any experience with this?)

I don't expect to turn the Sovereign into a Tesoro weight wise, but I wold like to clean up and lighten up the sovereign where I can.

Rich (Utah)

 

[UtahRich]

I weighed my standard 8-AA battery pack at 7.9 oz. The 10-AA NiMH pack I put together is 10.1 oz. An increase of 2.2 oz.

Now, if I can slip some rocks into my daypack........


Rich (Utah)

 

[Neil]

I just put together a 10 cell NiMH (2300 ma) battery pack for my XS-2a Pro. It is a snug fit in the housing but should provide a much longer run between charges than the AA throwaways. Following a full charge, I measured 13.7vdc on the pack.

I'm not sure what the pack weighs. I 'll weign it later and compare it against the standard 8-AA battery pack that came with it. Weight wasn't as big a concern when I started that little project. Using expensive throwaways and having batteries crap out during an all day hunt was my concern. If the 50ma applies to my older sovereign as well, that should give a LONG time between charges.

I picked up one of Pluggers balanced straight rods to replace the S-rod that came with my Sov. My older Sov came with the BBS 1000 coil, which weighs a ton or at least feels like it. I don't know that there's that much of a weight difference between the two search rods, but there is a definite difference in the balance of the detector when I load up the 10" BBS coil. Plugger's setup is much more comforatable to use. It places the housing further behind the elbow allowing it to balance the coil. I will put the searchrod on the scale as well if you're interested.

I stumbled across an 8" coinsearch coil with a 4' cable for a pretty good price. Using the coinsearch with the standard searchrod and configuration is a pleasure after using the BBS 1000. What a boat anchor. As a newbie, it appears to me that this coil was designed for beach use; non-buoyant and waterproof. The coinsearch coil it replaced was buoyant and not waterproof. Seems this is where the Sovereign design team turned down the road in favor of the beach/shallow water group.

After nearly 20 years on the market, I am still puzzled that Minelab hasn't come out with short cable versions (land versions) of some of the Sovereign coils. It would certainly clean up some of the cable mess for the land hunters. I have a SunRay S-1 coming and I am seriously thinking of ditching the BBS1000 in the closet and ordering an S-12 from SunRay and asking Ralph is he can do a 4' cable version for me. (Anybody have any experience with this?)

I don't expect to turn the Sovereign into a Tesoro weight wise, but I wold like to clean up and lighten up the sovereign where I can.

Rich (Utah)

Rich regarding the coils and cables on the sov coils, I trimmed a bunch of those coil cables down, it makes the rod look neater but there is very little weight savings. your only going to be able to cut off about 24" or so at most and still be able to rear mount your control box. if you cut it shorter, say just to run to the meter, your stuck always using your meter. lots of guys land hunt with a hipmount/chestmount configuration so the longer cable is a one way approach to fit everyone. If Ralph is still making the S12 then he would gladly make that cable length for you, he has done them for me in the past. like you mentioned about selling your BBS coil, remember you might want to sell any coil you shorten the cable on, and that will make it appealing to an even smaller amount of people.
if you want to make the sov lighter the best I could come up with was using the whites hipmount rod(lightest I could find) and the lightest coil you can live with size wise for your type of hunting. its a beast in weight no matter how you look at it, or what you do to it.

 

[UtahRich]

Thanks for the heads up on the whites search rod. I'll have to keep that in mind. I am just hoping to keep the weight manageable, not to make it a Tesoro Silver Umax. For the most part, the Whites detectors I've owned have all had pretty good layouts. I've often thought a sovereign with a layout along the lines of white's classic ID with the meter and mode change trigger would be a very nice 'land' configuration. The cabling between the housing and the meter would be internal to the search rod. Coils are easily changed at the meter.

When I am land hunting, I almost always use a meter. So my semi-permanent setup will be my favorite coil connected to my Sunray S-1 probe, connected to my rescaled meter, connected to my housing. That's a lot of cable needing quite a bit of room. Less cable is nice. Right now, I have a 8" coinsearch with a 4' cable that is going to be my primary coil until I sink or swim with the Sovereign. So no worries at the moment. But expanding to smaller and larger coils is another story. I will have to cross that river when I get there.

You're right of course about customizing coils and cables; they aren't as sellable if somewhere down the road I wish to sell any of those items. I thought about this before I stepped into the Sovereign world. I look at my used Sovereign purchase as one that I can modify to my hearts desire. I wasn't planning on anything extreme. My two biggest items were having a meter that is scaled to 180 and adding a remote PP switch up near the handle. I've already taken care of the meter rescaling. The PP switch is on my list of To Do's. If all of this means that I can't resale it if I should decide that the Sovereign isn't for me., I'm ok with that. My investment has been much less that a 'new' purchase.

Of course, the goal here isn't to sink, it is to swim and love it. So that is what I am planning. Having all of your help along the way is a big benefit.

I'll be following along these threads with great interest.

Rich (Utah)

 

[wildherre]

This is probably the nicest one I ever did, it was an original, XS or XS2 on a Whites shaft with a remote switch in the meter. Connection to the remote switch was ran through the coil cable using the unused terminal.. I dont remember who I sold it to.. If you happen to own this detector contact me.. The S bend is an important comfort & control feature .

Here is my current unit

wildherre

 

[UtahRich]

Very slick Wildherre. I like the toggle switch position. When I had my XS2 meter apart, it seemed pretty tight in the area you put the toggle. I will have to see if I can squeeze a toggle in their somewhere. Seems that I read somewhere about doing this switch adaptation and flipping the case upside down. If I remember right, the PCB sits on the bottom of the case. I believe the LCD display could be rotated upside down in relation to the PCB. Flipping the case upside down gives enough room to place a toggle without running into the board.

I had another thought about placing a small 1/8" jack in the Sovereign housing, like you've seen others do, and bringing a separate connection around the cable and into the meter. I think I like your way better, it looks real clean that way.

I am digging around for a good diagram and instruction on doing the remote switch. The cold weather has settled in here, so it looks like I am going to have plenty of time to work on my Sov in the next few months.

Rich (Utah)

 

[kered]

Surely if you flip the meter it won't clip on

 

[Sven]

Find all the pinpoint mod's at Wilherre's Sov group site:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sovereignmods/

 

[TT]

Went to Wildherre's Sovereign group site but could not open either of the files on the remote pinpoint switch mods. Don't know why?
I have a XS2A and a GT I would like to put a pinpoint switch on.
Is there someone out there that will do these mods? I have no soldering experience.

 

[Sven]

Went to Wildherre's Sovereign group site but could not open either of the files on the remote pinpoint switch mods. Don't know why?
I have a XS2A and a GT I would like to put a pinpoint switch on.
Is there someone out there that will do these mods? I have no soldering experience.

You have to join, once Wildherre approves your membership, you can access all the files etc.

 

[TT]

Sven
I am a member.
I get to the files but can't open them...???

 

[wildherre]

http://sovereignmods.freeforums.org/switch-t11.html