Sovereign beginners question

[William1221]

I have taken a nickle and buried it about 8 " in wet sand . I attempted to adjust the sensitivity to the maxium point and still get a signal. With the threshold running as smooth as silk I adjusted the the sens. At approximately 1o'clock it was as good as it would get. When I advanced the the sensitivity all the way to maxium there was no response. This was all done with a smooth threshold. Is the coil just so sensitive that it picking up other signals and can not filter out the proper signal?
Balanced the coil in all metal and pp slight bit more depth and was able to advance the sensitivity more but definately not to maxium.At maxium no response at all at 8". Smooth threshold
My confusion lies with the posts I have read where guys are using all metal and sensitivity at maxium settengs am I doing something wrong?

 

[Art (NWOH)]

The only thing you are doing wrong is listening to other people.
Most of the time there will be a peak point in sensitivity at any particular location. Adjusting the sensitivity higher or lower will result in loss of depth. Use it with the setting that is most sensitive as long as it runs smooth enough. Don't worry that the setting looks very low.

I learned this from reading one of Andy Sabisch's books. I tried it and it works every time.

HH

 

[Neil]

Art is absolutely correct in his post and that really goes for any detector. when your cranking up the sens you have to remember your increasing the response of everything the detector sees under the coil, ground minerals, nearby iron pieces, all of it.

Since your new at this I should ask , you do know the sens control increases as its turned counter clockwise, not clockwise right? the reason I ask is that you said at max sens your threshold was smooth/stable and at that setting it should be at least a little jumpy. I can get mine to about 11oclock max on a good beach here in disc, anything higher and its falsing(on wet ocean beach sand). Most beaches I have mine at 12 or 1 oclock.

 

[crazyman]

Bill, The Sovereigns are the easiest detectors to setup of any I've used. The only setting that needs to be adjusted when it comes to depth is the sensitivity and even that doesn't have to be dead nuts on for general hunting. It's just a matter of setting the sensitivity to the highest setting for the area your hunting while maintaining a steady threshold at your sweep speed. My ground/beach areas vary from site to site so I adjust my sensitivity for each site. Some people set up their sensitivity differently.but what works for me in the high mineralization up here is to first find an area free of iron or other targets and start with my sensitivity very low with a steady threshold and then with the coil 10-12 inches above the ground I start lowering the coil to the ground and raising it similar to bobbing the coil when ground balancing. I continue to do this while slowly raising the sensitivity. At the point the threshold nulls when the coil nears the ground I stop adjusting the sensitivity up and slowly back it down again until the threshold returns. Most times I will back it down just a tad more. I will then do some short sweeps and see if I need to back it down further. This takes about a minute to do and is a good starting point. While I'm hunting if I get a lot of nulling because of the ground I'll adjust it but most times it's because of my sweep speed and lets me know I need to slow down. In the end you have to find what works best for you and your ground. I really don't care what settings someone uses in Iowa or how they set theirs up for park hunting in good ground when I live in area with bad ground and hunt iron infested ghost towns and saltwater beaches.

 

[kered]

I can't hunt with more sensitivity in All metal than in disc mode, either on the Sov or excalibur, the threshold becomes unstable and slight pulsing, AM is usualy 2-3 points below the Disc setting in my ground to get things going smooth. You have just found the high beam in fog theory, more is not always better

 

[Critterhunter]

This is a timely post because of the questions I raised in the "Test Garden" and the 15x12 SEF thread. Yea, I know about the high beam stuff and the theory about sensitivity being too high resulting in blinding out the target due to the ground matrix. I've just never had any machine where max stable threshold/ID/Audio wasn't also the max depth for sensitivity. So long as the machine was smooth at the highest sensitivity level I had it set at then it meant I was getting max depth. However, I had noticed on my Explorers that max seemingly stable senstivity would cause a test coin to vanish in the ground until I backed it down a fair bit more than what looked like max stability. Learned to tweak it down on those machines or at least run some semi-auto.

Now I'm wondering if I'm costing my GT depth at certain sites by running at max sensitivity (all the way up) because the threshold seems fine to me, but I have yet to dig deeper coins with it than I have in auto I think....At least silver thus far has come deepest from memory when I was running in auto, and I was only doing that at one site because I was in a hurry and the ground was very bad and also due to RF noise. Didn't have the time to tweak out manual.

Crazyman, I've played with that pump sensitivity method but only a few times. I normally will find a clean spot and then adjust sensitivity to the highest spot without nulling while sweeping over it. But, now I think I'm going to make it a point to try your method. I've found most of my sites I can run the SEF at maximum sensitivity without falsing but I've got a realy sneaky suspicion it's costing me depth due to ground matrix overload and/or reflection of the signal off the ground minerals. I need to stick a silver dime in the ground at a clean spot and then play with the sensitivity to see what happens. I'm going to see how your method jives with mine and also max and see what is happening here. I'm really kind'a tweaked that two good hunts at a known deep coin spot and I've got nothing to show for my efforts. So far the 10" has got me deeper coins.

 

[William1221]

You are so right Critterhunter Take it from an inexperienced hunter, Maximum sensitivity will null out deep coins. Another point of interest I buried a penny abt 8" It was one from the area I was hunting . I played with the coil and sensitivity until I got a very faint signal at the furtherest distance. I swept the target many times getting a null other times getting a( null and then a high pitched spike at the end.).. to me that will mean dig. regards

 

[crazyman]

My ground can vary from site to site going from bad to real bad and and this method is just a quick way as a starting point to set my sensitivity for each site. It's just a way to get an idea of the maximum sensitivity that I can use at the particular site and I rarely run it at the highest setting. If I'm in an area that I know the coins will be past the 8-9 inch mark I will run at the highest sensitivity I can while keeping a steady threshold while hunting. For general hunting I run my sensitivity lower. When hunting in thick iron areas like ghost towns and logging camps I always run sensitivity in Auto. On the beach I run as hot as I can and still find deep targets regardless of how they sound. It's hard to screw up with a Sovereign. The other day I took the GT to a park that had a small military outpost during WW II and hunting an area where the housing used to be. The buildings burned down in the 60's and is full of iron and melted metal. I decided to experiment and set the GT up opposite of what most people use. I set it to auto sensitivity, iron mask off and silent threshold. I'm not going to say it turned the Gt into a pussycat but it sure helped with the falsing making it very manageable in the trash and I was able to pull a Merc. 3 Wheaties and a small silver pendant with turquoise stone from between the junk in the 6-7 inch range. I don't think sensitivity settings or how you use the Sovereign or use of some of the other features should be set in stone like a one size fits all application.

 

[Critterhunter]

Auto will for sure stabilize the ID when you find it jumpy at maxed "stable" sensitivity on targets. I've been playing with that a lot on undug stuff, switching from max stable sensitivity to Auto, and I'm finding Auto is much easier to quickly stabilize the ID without the need to wiggle and work the target in manual maxed sensitivity. If auto shows marked improvement in target ID stability on a known "good" target such as a coin then I think it's a sure indication that I'm running manual too hot. I think particularly in rough ground (hot rocks, minerals, RF noise, and/or iron) Auto may in fact find coins that manual wouldn't because the machine is doing it's best to reset the threshold and keep things from overloading. I think it's worth working tough spots like this in auto and then going back over it in manual or vise versa to see what the results are. If anybody does that please post a thread. It would be very interesting to read. I'll try to get around to that myself some time this summer and throw up a report.

Until I peg down exactly how depth is affected at maxed stable sensitivity versus something a good bit lower and also compared to Auto I'm going to have serious doubts about which is giving me best depth, at least on the 15x12 SEF. Besides doing what I can with my test garden I plan to do some tests in the field. Kind'a tweaked that I'm getting a lot of noise from the overhead power lines where I put the garden. Should have thought that one threw, but the SEF has been so stable for me that I haven't really had to think about that much at sites. I think maybe noise band 1 might have eliminated the noise even at max manual sensitivity but only played with that for a minute before the rain. If I can't get manual at least to something halfway to max then that limits my comparisons of various settings and I may have to move the garden to a quieter area.

I think my next and most logical step is going to be to start carrying a silver dime with me at all times so when I get to a new site I can compare the various settings. I'll find a clean spot and cover it back up with soil and then start playing with auto, max, halfway, etc on sensitivity to see which gives the best response. I'll probably stick the dime at say 9 to 11" deep, because 9" is the bare minimum I'm shooting at in depth to go deeper than my prior machines. If I find any setting is giving me a good hit on it then I'll go another 2 or 3" deeper and play with them all again until I find out which setting is still hitting the target good and which ones are no longer able to register it. That's probably the only way I'm going to know for sure what adjustments to sensitivity are working best at which sites. Yea, a freshly buried coin isn't the same as something that is undisturbed in the ground but the results should probably be the same as far as which is penetrating the ground best. I'll expect slightly better depth on undug targets but this should be very informative. Might have to start making this routine for myself, particularly if I find that with each new site max, auto, or a lower sensitivity changes as to which is giving best depth and target ID/sound.

I'll report back with my findings as I go. The only machine that seemed to lose depth with max stability (threshold, ID, etc) for me over the years was the Explorer. It made adjustments tricky because everything looked fine but it was costing me depth or making targets vanish. I remember one day in which a friend was hunting with his Explorer in auto or at least a much lower manual and/or semi auto. We were taking turns with his machine and I kept maxing it out when I was using it. We pretty much covered the same general area (high trash and minerals) and he I think got 2 or 3 silvers from memory that were not very deep, like maybe 2 to 4" at the most. I kept getting skunked and that was the first time I realized something was going on with the sensitivity on it.

After all the above jazz I'll probably then compare what sensitivity setting I find to be the deepest at a site to where the pump or sweep method of setting sensitivity has it set. I'd like to see something like the pump method end up being the same sensitivity setting as the above so I don't have to go about sticking a coin in the ground at every new spot. I have noticed when I've played with the pump method that the threshold will null approaching the ground at a sensitivity setting that seems fine doing the sweep method, so that tells me that the pump method might be better as it's indicating that the sensitivity is still set too high.

 

[Critterhunter]

One other thing, I made a remark about too high of sensitivity perhaps reflecting off the ground minerals. That might be in error. I'm not sure how the Sovereign handles sensitivity but it can be managed two different ways on machines. On some units cranking the sensitivity higher turns up the strength of the TX signal, which some might call a pre-amp circuit. On others sensitivity raises the gain from the receiving signal, which I guess you could also call a pre-amp if you wanted. Obviously if TX output is being increased then that could cause reflection off the ground minerals, but if the RX is being adjusted (which I think is what the Sovereign does) then it's only amplifying the received signal. In either case that could cause a target to vanish because of too much sensitivity. If not reflecting off the minerals via TX adjustment, boosting the gain on the RX could cause the machine to overload on the entire ground/target signal and be blinded to the target. Some machines allow you to control both aspects of this, as does I think Shaun's amp for the Sovereign.

 

[Art (NWOH)]

You're a day late and a dollar short. I should say a whole lot late and several paychecks short.

To clear up one thing right away...
The coil pumping thing may get you set up right in one place when conditions are right, but it does not always work...and can be completely wrong.

The second...
I have brought up the sensitivity peak issue before, but few listen.
One guy found this with an FBS machine also and met some serious resistance for mentioning it. After all, this goes against the "everybody knows" stuff.

I will now let you run in circles for a while.
A couple hints ...
Read my post at the end of this thread.
and
Think in terms of signal to noise ratios, small signal gain, desensitization, and IM distortion. Terms used mostly in communication electronics, but I think would be most applicable in this case.

HH

 

[Critterhunter]

A little less mysterious of a reply and filling us in on what you know would be helpful. If you are talking about noise to signal ratio that increases when a signal is amplified I'm aware of that, and that's what I was saying when I said that increasing the gain on the RX signal can cause target to degrade or be washed out.

Since you seem to be holding back a few cards on what you know about how the Sovereign adjusts and handles sensitivity then please let us all know, because as of yet I have not read any threads anywhere on just how it adjusts sensitivity. I think most machines adjust it via the RX signal and not the TX so I would figure the Sovereign probably does it this way, but please correct me if I'm wrong and let us know what's up with it. Thanks.

I think Shaun's amp increased the TX coil voltage to something like 42 volts and results in a much stronger/larger signal being put into the ground, but I think his unit also has a RX gain adjustment to get things stable. Not sure if he also gives you the ability to adjust the TX strength as well or if that's set.

 

[Art (NWOH)]

Yes, only the gain in the reciever is adjusted. The transmit signal remains at a fixed level, as does the coil preamp gain. Don't know about the linear amp that Shaun is selling.

It is not necessary to know exactly how it works, but what the end result is.....and how to manage it to best effect.
It is necessary to understand things that always work, as opposed to things that fool you by appearing to work under a particular set of circumstances and end up getting adopted as an "always do" kind of thing.

And would you please make your posts in the right location in a thread so we can tell who the heck you are talking too??

HH

 

[Critterhunter]

Don't know what you mean by right location? So then what is your theory on just where sensitivity should be set for a site on a Sovereign for max depth? If it's the norm "as high as threshold will remain stable" thing that most use, or do you find that what seems like max stable sensitivity will cause signals to degrade or vanish? I'm curious if there seems to be any method or madness to adjusting it for max depth if one can't go by how high you can get it without the threshold becoming eratic. I know it's too much to ask for but I'm hoping that I might find after a good bit of in field experimenting some kind of general rule not requiring me to put a coin in the ground at depth at each new site. It would be nice if it worked out that say you find max stability (meaning smooth threshold) and then backed it down by say a 1/8th a turn from there or something. Probably too much to ask for in being that easy, but I'll see...

 

[kered]

I'm all ears too Art

 

[crazyman]

This has been discussed before in the past but obviously you either don't read the entire thread or your reading glasses are on backwards. I've always said this is just a quick way to find the maximum sensitivity for that particular site and is just used as a "starting point" when setting your sensitivity in mineralized ground that can vary wildly like we have up here. Let me repeat this in case you missed it again, "it's just a starting point" and you will most likely have to do further adjustments to get the best depth and/or target separation in trashy areas.

 

[crazyman]

People wanting to argue on how to use the easiest setting there is to set on a metal detector. Only on the Sovereign forum.

 

[Art (NWOH)]

It's pretty simple if you dump the standard stuff in the toilet where it belongs and learn how THIS kind of machine works.

Some procedures do not always work everywhere...
Example....
Coil pumping. What about the areas and times when you don't get any nulling or noise at ANY sensitivity setting? Does this mean you should run it at max? Only when I am hunting behind you.

Standard procedure. Running as high as possible without nulling or falsing.
This becomes necessary a lot of the time, and you may accidently end up at the best sensitivity setting this way but not always.

When conditions permit, you should use a setting that is most sensitive no matter where it is on the dial. That is unless working a lot of trash where running at two or three different LOWER levels to see if any targets get unmasked would also be a good idea.

Andy Sabisch said it a long time ago. Condensed version.....
"Adjust sensitiviity to get the strongest target response at the location".
You could(and probably will) find places where you will have to stop short because the ground or electrical crap is acting up too much.

Example...
My GT Peaks in sensitivity at 12 o'clock at every location that I have used it with the exception of hunting wet saturated dirt where I can increase to 11 o'clock where it peaks out under THESE conditions. There have been times that noise and the iron in the ground has limited me to running a lot lower, so the only option under those conditions is to go to a smaller coil and see what I come up with or just live with it.

All of this has worked with both of my Sovs, and with 2 different Minelab coils and 2 different Excelerator coils.
But the exceptions.........
The 2a peaks 1 hour higher, but only because the dials are indexed one hour different between machines and I am too lazy to reposition either one.
The My S-12 SOUNDS like it peaks higher because it sounds louder, but the signal starts sounding like crap at setting above the usual peak.

Word has it that peak setting could be 2 o'clock or LESS on beaches. It's obvious that one fixed setting is not always right or should be applied universally.
You can determine the peak if conditions permit it and always start out with this setting......but check a couple times when hunting when you find a very weak target to fine tune on.

HH

 

[Art (NWOH)]

Ah yes, but HOW do you adjust for best depth afterwards?

HH

 

[crazyman]

I don't live in Ohio and I don't spend much time hunting worked out parks in good ground listening for tiny threshold changes. This pumping method was originally meant as a way to help set up your sensitivity in "mineralized iron infested" ghost town type sites where there is not enough clean ground to set it up like you might in a cleaner big park site but it works the same at any site and once again it's just a quick "starting point" regardless of the site. If your looking for ultra deep coins using the threshold changes alone in "clean ground" and you really think micro sensitivity adjustments will make a difference then by all means go ahead and spend your day fiddling with it on every signal you come across. It's not rocket science Art and I'm sure your God Andy or whoever gave you advice won't strike me down for doing something different.