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SmartScreen

Shambler

New member
I've been looking at the cond/ferr values posted earlier on this forum comparing the Explorer and E-Trac. I have Andy's new book and I understand what they've done (although, I still don't see a good reason why). My question is, "why use the SmartScreen at all"? If they were going to flatten out the curve so much that 95% of targets had one Y value, why not just create a straight line 1-99 TID or a 5 high graph? Do any of you think this was to attract Explorer users? I hope not, since the first thing Minelab reps said AFTER a bunch purchased it was "this is NOT an Explorer". In reality though, it looks like an Explorer, has very similar features, the same coils, and the same price range. It seems a bit underhanded to me. I'm not looking for a fight here among E-Trac users, just honest discussion. I know the E-Trac finds things... it's a $1500 detector so of course it will. Do you think it was a good progression for Minelab's upper echelon detector?

That brings me to my next question. Does this mean that the Safari is an Explorer with the flattened curve?
 
I have always hunted by sound but used the screen to verify what my ears and brain tell me. The screen is just to verify for me. The smart screen is just another tool. Some choose to use it and others do not.

I have owned an Explorer for about a year and now have the E-trac. The E- trac is not an Explorer and I agree totally with the engineers on that. In my case, going to the E-trac was logical and not in any way influenced by curves or even the screen. My decision was influenced by the increased ability of the new processor over the processor used in the Explorer to identify by sound first, and then by visual. I just like the E-trac more than I like the Explorer. And others will agree and others will disagree. And so it goes. Give the E-trac owners a little time and watch what we find. I'm willing to bet that we will be finding more than almost any others.

I found that the Explorer was an excellent machine, but the E-trac was more so in so many ways. Ergonomics, processor speed which allows for faster recovery speed, the screen layout, the more logical, to me anyway, menu system, the ability for more adjustments to audio and many more refinements were the things that really made me decide to go with the E-trac. The E-trac exchange was just icing on the cake. Nothing underhanded going on at Minelab. The E-trac to me was worth the extra money. To me, the best machine yet from Minelab.

The X, Y coordinate changes really mean nothing other than to make a more logical screen representation of targets. Nothing more. They could have transposed the X and Y and still it would really mean nothing other than those who use visual along with audio would have to adjust to figuring out what is what.

I have heard all the pros and cons regarding the Explorer VS E-trac and I have to ask the question, "The folks who ask questions like these, do you have an E-trac and have you owned or do own an Explorer?

From what I have learned so far, the Safari is not an Explorer with a flattened curve. The Safari is a Safari and the Explorer is an Explorer. The Safari is the replacement for the Quattro and uses many of the technologies from the E-trac. It is kind of a simpler version of the E-trac. Not an Explorer. It is closer to the E-trac technologically.

The E-trac is the most logical progression from the Explorer. And I would say that Minelab did a fantastic job with the newest technology in the E-trac. Just my opinion and may not be the opinion of anyone else. Kind of reminds me of the old saying....."You are unique...just like everyone else."
 
If you watch the mlotv videos they say that the Safari is a turn-on-and-go Explorer. That's what got me thinking. I do own an Explorer and I'd love to upgrade for speed, but not if at the expense of TID. I don't agree they made it more logical...in fact turning a "natural" S curve into a line is the opposite. Taking the numbers provided earlier I did a quick simple graph, and I will agree that the E-Trac is simpler but I don't know about making more sense.

The blue dots are where the trash targets hit, the black dots are the coins, and the red dots are where a tash and coin target hit in the same spot. This is why I believe Minelab either should've went totally linear (a TID 1 - 50 or 1 - 99) or changed the smart screen to have a max value for Y of 5. Right now you have a 6" screen where all of the targets show up in 1/4" of it. I'm wondering why they did that. Maybe Andy can chime in and make me feel good about spending $1500 on one. His book did it initially until I had a few days to think about it.

Using these numbers: http://www.findmall.com/read.php?63,820520
 
Steve from Ohio said:
I have always hunted by sound but used the screen to verify what my ears and brain tell me. The screen is just to verify for me. The smart screen is just another tool. Some choose to use it and others do not.

I have owned an Explorer for about a year and now have the E-trac. The E- trac is not an Explorer and I agree totally with the engineers on that. In my case, going to the E-trac was logical and not in any way influenced by curves or even the screen. My decision was influenced by the increased ability of the new processor over the processor used in the Explorer to identify by sound first, and then by visual. I just like the E-trac more than I like the Explorer. And others will agree and others will disagree. And so it goes. Give the E-trac owners a little time and watch what we find. I'm willing to bet that we will be finding more than almost any others.

I found that the Explorer was an excellent machine, but the E-trac was more so in so many ways. Ergonomics, processor speed which allows for faster recovery speed, the screen layout, the more logical, to me anyway, menu system, the ability for more adjustments to audio and many more refinements were the things that really made me decide to go with the E-trac. The E-trac exchange was just icing on the cake. Nothing underhanded going on at Minelab. The E-trac to me was worth the extra money. To me, the best machine yet from Minelab.

The X, Y coordinate changes really mean nothing other than to make a more logical screen representation of targets. Nothing more. They could have transposed the X and Y and still it would really mean nothing other than those who use visual along with audio would have to adjust to figuring out what is what.

I have heard all the pros and cons regarding the Explorer VS E-trac and I have to ask the question, "The folks who ask questions like these, do you have an E-trac and have you owned or do own an Explorer?

From what I have learned so far, the Safari is not an Explorer with a flattened curve. The Safari is a Safari and the Explorer is an Explorer. The Safari is the replacement for the Quattro and uses many of the technologies from the E-trac. It is kind of a simpler version of the E-trac. Not an Explorer. It is closer to the E-trac technologically.

The E-trac is the most logical progression from the Explorer. And I would say that Minelab did a fantastic job with the newest technology in the E-trac. Just my opinion and may not be the opinion of anyone else. Kind of reminds me of the old saying....."You are unique...just like everyone else."
[size=large] The Safari ....................Tho I don't Own The Safari .I have read about it,and what I read suggests.............................That the Safari........Is a quicker Quatrro,or has many updates in software,and a much faster Processor.......Much as the Explorer SE,has a much faster Processor than the other Explorers.................Also a big change for either the Explorers All,including the SE,,,,,,,,,,,,,,as well as the Quatrro...Was the introduction of the Pro Coil...............................................That is now standard on the Safari...................................................................................
...............................................Although I think the Safari is either a new product all together,or 'as I said'. A very updated newer version of the Quatrro.
I don't think it could come very close to the performance of the E-Trac,or even the Explorers.....That is unless in a comparison.The Explorer was using one of it's older coils,while the Safari sports the Pro coil.In which case the Safari may get about the same depth as the Explorer,and recover faster as well.........
....................................Just allot of guess work on my part.Not due to any comparisons..........Maybe one that has both,and has done some side by side comparisons could ring in ?[/size]
 
[size=x-large]I missread your post,and now have to say I agree with most all you wrote......................................................................................................................................................
Expecially the part I missread........................................"The Safari is not an Explorer with a flattened curve. The Safari is a Safari and the Explorer is an Explorer. The Safari is the replacement for the Quattro and uses many of the technologies from the E-trac. It is kind of a simpler version of the E-trac. Not an Explorer. It is closer to the E-trac technologically. "....................
............................That was a great post STEVE
[/size]
 
Hello there McNickle......Let's cut straight to the point regarding your thoughts on the the 'Straight line' by Minelab.

The reason for the new screen is that it provide a correction to the old Explorer curvatures.

The undeniable benefits are an expanded and therefor improved ferrous range of discrimination

THAT MATCHES THE NEW IMPROVED SEPARATION OF GOOD TARGET FROM IRON.

The E-trac excels at that, as this forum's experienced E-Trac users will testify.

You can recover a target that is virtually masked by iron, to within a point of the iron's ferrous value.

THAT IS WHY THEY HAVE GIVEN YOU THE NEEDED EXTRA RESOLUTION AFFORDED BY THE SCREEN's Fe 12 LINE UP.

It also has improved conductivity resolution over previous Explorers, so you should have little difficulty sorting out the trash from the cash.

Hope that helps............THE MARSHALL
 
A few points to ponder that will hopefully answer the questions

=============================

The charts are simply a guide: You show the graphs we all know about and say that it was easier to tell targets apart on the S-curve from the Explorer than the 12-line on the E-Trac. Well, as long as you are looking for coins or goodies in a lab or as they float past you in the air, you are correct. The problem or issue on the Explorer was what we now as the bounce. Deeper targets, targets in close proximity to trash or simply in real bad ground could cause the cursor to move a good deal so the smart find screen had limited value if you were simply looking at where the cursor STOPPED. Those of us that learned what the MOVEMENT told us reaped the rewards.

On the E-Trac, you get movement up and down (FE scale) which also appears based on the same factors BUT the CO value is far more stable and consistent than the Explorer was. For example, today I hot a spot littered with trash and cinders from a large fire decades ago. Signals that ranged from 09 to 27 on the FE scale with a consistent CO value of 42 ALL were Wheat Cents . . . . . so the ideal graph shown above would have been meaningless if I was only looking for a "12-42" to dig.

=============================

If you watch the MLOTV videos they say that the Safari is a turn-on-and-go Explorer: Well, I guess you could also say the Chevrolet Chevette was a turn-on-and-drive Corvette but I doubt many would buy that either. The Safari (and Quattro) use the FBS circuitry but you can be assured that they are NOT turn-on-and-go Explorers. The detection depth is not the same by design and the target ID is based on a single number ranging from -10 to +40. Not knocking either one (Safari or Quattro) since I own and use both but I do not delude myself and say it is the same as my E-Trac or Explorer. Excellent performance with minimal adjustments and a unit that will out hunt the competition with the right techniques but it is not an Explorer . . . and Minelab has never claimed it to be one.

=============================

Does this mean that the Safari is an Explorer with the flattened curve?: No, the target ID scale on the Safari and Quattro was developed independent of the Smart Find screen on the Explorer. See the scaling info in the response above.

==============================

Hope this answers your questions

Andy Sabisch
 
Perhaps I am just slow, but I also don't see what was gained by this move. Staightening out the ferrous response curve? After reading zillions of posts over the years can't remember anyone complaining about this. Is there any reason that the other improved features of the Etrac couldn't be used with the old style display/ferrous sounds?

Do you people using the Etrac feel you are finding more because they changed screen mappings or because the other changes such as a faster processor?

Once again, one of the features that made the explorers shine in the detecting world was the two dimensional screen and the amount of information that it provided about what is in the ground; this seems like a move away.

Still waiting for an explanation.....

Chris
 
Again, my apologies to McNickle, for addressing my original post to you.

The reply was intended as a response to Chris's comments on the F 12 line up etc.

No excuses other than a genuine error............Sorry.



..................
 
I don't get why it is so important. As long as it finds what I want to find, what does it matter about curves, XY coordinates, computer connections, et al.

I like the E-trac because it is better for me than any other detector I have used in the past. Including the Explorer. That is just my opinion. Others may disagree and that's OK. The screen is still two dimensional. Just a little different than the Explorer. Not a big deal. I listen more than read the screen anyway.

The faster processor is the main reason for my preferring the E-trac over the Explorer. The most stable machine I have ever used. I have found the screen display just icing on the cake. To me, the number are more logical. So some will disagree. I like Ford, you like Chevy.

Hey, they did not mess with the Explorer..anyone can still get one. If anyone is not happy about the new technology, they have the option of getting the older technology.

Not sure of sales on the E-trac but I've seen quite a few out in the field. More E-tracs than I've seen Explorer's in the past.

Must be something people like about them!
 
I'm certainly not saying you or anyone else shouldn't have bought one nor am I criticizing your decision. I'm just trying to make sense of it to see if I should actually buy one ($1400 is a lot of macaroni!). I know I can keep my Explorer (sigh). I hope this can be a technical discussion of the Explorer - ETrac progression?

I understand what they did, I still don't see why. To me, most notably is why have a 32 value scale along the Y axis when 90% of targets hit on one value and the other 10% hit within 5 of that value. I understand "fixing the bounce" but I don't see that is a valid reason when the bounce was a tool used for proper ID. If they were truly looking for a linear detector with "increased resolution" then why not go for a TID of 99 (or 199 for that matter) like the competitors. The reason 32 was ok was because it was actually 1024, and even if real targets only fell in 1/3 of that it was still 341. Now it's more like 170 and that doesn't seem like more resolution at all.


Andy said:
...09 to 27 on the FE scale with a consistent CO value of 42 ALL were Wheat Cents . . . . . so the ideal graph shown above would have been meaningless if I was only looking for a "12-42" to dig.

This seems to indicate what I'm saying. The FE scale is no longer important.
 
We've all been down this road many, many, many times since the E-Trac was released a few months back. Minelab's engineers designed a detector that utilized the FBS circuitry but was [size=large]never[/size] intended - even from when it was still on the drawing board - to be a replacement or even the next model in the Explorer line.

Could they have added an "Explorer emmulator" mode to the menu options to give Explorer users the ability to get their "old sounds and All Metal" capabilities? Sure, with software you could probably have done that. But why stop there? Why not have a "Quattro or Safari emmulator" mode where the screen would switch to provide users with the Quattro / Safari user interface? How much would you be willing to pay? That simply does not make good business sense . . . . despite what we might want to think, Minelab as with any company stays in business to sell detectors not combine them into one model or even offer low-cost flash upgrades to the software as some have postulated to get the next model without the expense of buying the whole package.

The E-Trac does some things better than the Explorer, others different than the Explorer and for some, the Explorer is a better or preferrable choice. The comment "If there was a good reason for doing what they did. Haven't heard one yet." has been heard time and time again yet the number of people that are using the E-Trac and doing quite well in the field goes up each day based on what they post while the naysayers shouting "I want the new detector to act like my old one" seem to be less prevelant than they were the weeks after it came out. Anyone that feels they can master a new - not simply an upgraded - detector in a week or even a month and make an informed choice over how their old detector worked (with 100's of hours on it) is deluding themselves. Several people have posted that it takes a minimum of 40+ hours in the field to start to feel comfortable with the capabilities of a new detector . . . . and that might be low.

So the good reason for doing what they did . . . . . to produce a detector that performed better under most conditions than the competition period! Do you like everything they did? Probably not. Could they have done things differently? Maybe, but until you are working for Minelab, its their company and their decisions.

Do you really think that they are not looking at adding features found on the E-Trac to the Explorer down the road? If you don't, you need to think about how comapnies leverage resources and technology from one product to another.

As others have said since September . . . . . "If the E-Trac works for you by all means get one and use it. If you bought one simply to say you had the newest FBS detector and did so without testing it first . . . . well, you paid your dollars and took your chance". The finds those that have learned the E-Trac are making are quite impressive.

In some areas it may not be the choice a seasoned Explorer user would make but as they say . . . ..

[size=large]
"If there was one detector that did it all and outperformed all others, the other manufacturers would all be out of business!"​
[/size]


Remember, some like Fords, some like Chevy's and some like Honda's . . . each for their own reason but they all get you from point A to point B"

Andy Sabisch
 
There are a number of users that have been very successful and have learned to understand their Explorer like it was part of them . . . . and since the E-Trac operates differently and in some conditions, may not give you the immediate results years on the Explorer has provided, the E-Trac may not be the detector for you (especially if you are not willing or able to invest hours in the field learning it). I'm sure this is not what the marketing guys at Minelab want me to say but moving from the Explorer to the E-Trac is not a path everyone needs to take especially if you are expecting inches more depth or super-accurate target ID compared to your Explorer. There are many Explorer users that have made the switch and are doing quite well . . . . . . but I also know a few that "tried it and went back".

Heck, I have a few friends that are very successful Whites users that went from the XLT to the DFX and after some time in the field, went back again. They find more with the XLT that they know and can adjust DIFFERENTLY than the DFX. Whites never claimed the DFX was the XLT's replacement and as time showed, both could live and play together.

Use what works for you in your sites and for your style of hunting. I doubt anyone would look at Bryce's finds and say he needs to dump his Explorer for an E-Trac!

Andy Sabisch
 
A faster Explorer with a larger screen, more resolution and some of the minor software changes found on the ETrac without changing the Explorer platform that we know and love sooooooooooooo very dearly. Is that too much to ask?:surrender: Tell me, honestly Andy, wouldn't you love a faster, "souped" up, Explorer?
 
. . . my E-Trac, Explorer SE and Explorer II work just fine
 
Quote from your post above Andy......"The charts are simply a guide: You show the graphs we all know about and say that it was easier to tell targets apart on the S-curve from the Explorer than the 12-line on the E-Trac. Well, as long as you are looking for coins or goodies in a lab or as they float past you in the air, you are correct. The problem or issue on the Explorer was what we now as the bounce. Deeper targets, targets in close proximity to trash or simply in real bad ground could cause the cursor to move a good deal so the smart find screen had limited value if you were simply looking at where the cursor STOPPED. Those of us that learned what the MOVEMENT told us reaped the rewards."

Where do you get the idea that the "bounce" does not exist on the ETrac???? That same bounce not only happens on the ETrac, but in most cases, worse. Quarters at 27-46 bouncing all the way from 12-46 is a heck of a bounce Andy:surprised:. And yes, that is a ferrous bounce, but no different than an SE bouncing left towards iron. So to say that the ETrac has resolved that issue is way off. Additionally, in all metal on the SE's, the bounce rarely ever occurred at all, and almost never for a targets conductive value. Which is another reason why I and others prefer all metal on the Explorers.

Try this Andy, take some coins of different denominations, penny, dime, quarter, half....whatever and run it past your EXPLORER coil, record your numbers. Then turn the coin at 45 degrees to the coil and also on edge and record your same findings. The numbers for those results on your EXPLORER will stay relatively consistent, regardless of coin orientation. Now with the same coins, try that with your ETrac and the variance and "bouncing" will drop your jaw....it did mine. Now how often are coins laying perfectly parallel to your coil in the field? Why is it that an Explorer gives consistent readings no matter what the coins orientation is to the coil and the ETrac can't???? Where are people getting the Etrac gives more accurate and consistent TID??? I assume you have both machines.....try it.
 
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