SE vs XS

[drwhou02]

Well a friend and I had a hour or so to try both machines over a few targets..The xs sampled 3 targets that id 100 percent dig me now! The Se said no way on two targets and maybe on one..Two ended up being iron and the maybe was a zinc penny around 4.5 deep..My buddy calimed it was 2 to 1 I claimed it was a shut out at 3 for 3 since my Se understands that a Zinc penny is really junk ;>) The ground was nail infested beyond belief..It sure helps to narrow a learning curve on a minelab with another minelaber detecting with ya!! Off to a real park tommorrow to See how the SE can suck out a few coins!

 

[Big Boys Hobbies]

Thanks for the info!!..........keep us posted on how thew park goes as well!!

 

[drwhou02]

Well I was just starting to <GET> my Ex11 in my brain..Thanx to Cody and his wonderfull posts! Then Went to the Se as of this week..tried a park today that had been known for deep targets..Using the Se I only managed to pull bottle caps and aluminum.and some shallow change...A well seasoned guy who was also testing his Se had the same results..So either that park is squeaky clean or we arent getting much advantage using the SE at that site etc..When i first arived he felt his machine was unstable thinking maybe a bad coil,,I asked him how he noise canceled and he said on the ground..after he air balanced the machine he said it seemed to solve the problem..I feel With about 20 hours with the SE I feel the SE is a ggod tool I just need to find what circumstances that make it really shine ..

Vern

 

[Jerry/Oregon]

Tell your friend I had the same problem, I thought the coil was bad, did noise cancel like the manual says and still thought coil was bad, then I did noise cancel up high in air and everything was good.
Tomorrow i'm going to try my 10.5 XS coil just to see how it works on the SE.
My first impression on the SE is, I don't know yet.

Jerry/Oregon

 

[Erik]

Vern, I had the same results so far in a park that has given up some deeper older coins. I'd cleared out a 15' x 15' area with my XS to remove all the junk. I'd very much hoped that the SE would pull odd items out that the XS couldn't find, but I didn't get a single hit. I'll try this area again and see if the results are the same. I'm hoping that this machine might excel in amongst the junk as this is what some are alluding to, but we need more time to verify people's results before we're really sure what the detector will and will not do. I'm certainly willing to put a lot more time in with this unit and hopefully be proven wrong on my initial observations. It's still a fine machine either way you look at it.

 

[drwhou02]

I have a feeling due to the faster recovery rate the Se might really shine in a beach setting? Or a heavy mineralized area..Im going to run my Se for a while as a back up to my Ex11 with a sunray 5in and see if it shines in heavy junk..This Se tool has a place in the tool box lol just where?????
Any thoughts CODY???????????????

 

[Arturo de Zorro]

can you swing it around and around like I once read?

 

[Cody]

The SE is an EX2 with third generation software, faster microprocessor, VCO Pinpointing, which as a few of us have tried to say are modest improvements. However I do think the modest improvements will add up to being more effective.

Here is the deal! It is still a sub-class of pulse induction, uses FBS, has some plastic shaved off the coil for lighter weight, so can add up to the users being more effective. The electromagnetic field expands no further from the coil than it did before. Hopefully the user will be able to better pick faint targets from that detection field, work better in trashy sites with a lot of junk metal, and pinpoint deeper target better. That is why you will notice I constantly emphasize being more effective is what will translate to more finds.
If I work an area of a park that has a lot of trash metals and get no more than four or 5 inches due to the way a detector responds but then change that response and start to get coins at 6 to 7 inches then I get more depth. However the nothing has changed as far as how far the detection field penetrates the soil matrix. But for me it is more depth! That is just an example of what I have been saying about more effective.

I am not near a beach but have hunted them and I would search in all metal, Iron Mask or Clear Smartfind screen with Digital which I am sure you already do. Crank the gain up as high as you like and sensitivity as close to 32 as you can with stability and get read to dig. I am wondering what would happen if you tried to search with the PINPOINT button locked in PINPOINT.I have a detector that has a Relic program that uses VCO ON so that would be essentially the same think with the SE. If you try this keep in mind that you can adjust the gain up or down and lift and lower the coil for that surface trash that is going to really sing out with a high gain setting.

I cannot help but add this technical point. A single frequency detector cannot be ground balanced to both salt and iron mineral at the same time. A multiple frequency detector can be balanced to both salt and iron mineral which is one of the primary advantages of multiple frequencies. The other is more discrimination data.

Minelab is doing something that I think is interesting. With the EX2 we were told to Noise Cancel with the coil on the ground. Several users called those guys up at Minelab and they confirmed this. One reason was both soil matrix noise and external stray RF were considered. If we are now told to Noise Cancel with the coil in the air then we are now only concerned with external stray RF.

I tried a number of tests with the EX2 in this manner. I used Learn/Edit to learn the stray RF by holding the detector in the air and slowly turning in a circle. Stray RF caused white dots or square to appear all over the screen as one would expect. What was very clear was the search head acted like an antenna and was very directional. When I had the coil pointed towards the power transformer the stray RF just crackled. By turning 180 form the transformer it cut to at least half?

So why am I saying all this? I think we should noise cancel in the air as they say. But I have a feeling I will lift the coil and turn in the direction of the most induced RF, most static sound in headphones, and then press Noise Cancel. I am not sure if I used Manual or Auto Noise Cancel.This is one I will have to test in the filed and see what happens. I did notice in the past that Noise Cancel would increase the accuracy of digital ID of ferrous/conductive reading.

Let me quickly add I have thousands invested in many Explorer models and now have an SE on the way. Hey, I am with everyone in that I want this banna to work better than anything I have every used before.

 

[drwhou02]

You have alot of good points Cody..I thankyou for sharing about the rf information also good tips! I started out with whites back to 1980.then xlt..dfx etc...I like how the ratchet pinpointing is tight and smooth..especialy when used with jeff fosters deep silver relic programs in AM mode..So I figured id try the same like you mentioned ID in AM with pinpoint on..It does work iding But ...It doesnt detune fast enough like the ratchet pinpoint did to be able to have enough target seperation between targets ..unless unlike dinner plate size vco in youre ears ..Like tinfoil mentioned you need to sweep the coil away for any detuning to happen..If only there was a adjustment for detuning it?? or speed up the seperation. I am eagerly awaiting when you get youre SE Cody so I can learn youre thoughts tips tricks etc..

 

[BarnacleBill]

commonly used in direction finding and extensively in Amateur radio. In Amateur radio they are used in direction finding contest/events, but more importantly as receiving antennas in noisy environments.

As such, it is the RF currents that are traveling in the ground that you are trying to cancel. These currents have been induced by a noise source and are traveling through the ground. It is the polarity vertical/horizontal that is an important factor in properly cancelling the noise signal.

The ground/sand/soil is a horizontal plane most of the time, with a user holding a highly directional loop antenna parallel to it.

Therefore proper technique is to:

Hold coil above the ground at waist height out away from your body, with the coil parallel to the ground. The purpose of having the coil at this height is to make sure the machine is not reading the ground/soil matrix signal, only the RF.

Caveats:

1. Don't have any large metal in the ground below, or other large metal objects nearby(shovels, scoops, poles, fences etc.) 20ft radius is probably a safe bet, since those objects can re-radiate a coupled RF signal and inject the RF at a polarity plane that you would not normally be seeing with the coil near the ground.

2. Don't just swing the coil up to waist height where the coil is at a 45deg angle or a similar vertical plane. I would also advise NOT having your headphones plugged in or on your body. Think of your headphone wire as a nice long antenna wire which can couple the RF despite your best efforts to cancel it.

3. Grab the coil pole in the middle and pick the machine straight up away from your body at arms length. If you're wearing one of those Texas size belt buckles, take it off. Also any knives & diggers etc.
Reach up and engage the noise cancel holding the coil still. OK so you now look like a Circus act. When people see me do this at the beach I just tell them I am offering my detector up for a blessing from Neptune, they all seem to move away quickly and not bother me the rest of the day while keeping their children at a distance.

Why not point at the noise source and cancel?

1. The soil RF signal is probably at a different polarity than the source.

2. The soil may shift the frequency of the original RF signal.

3. The ground may be attenuating the original fundamental RF frequency, but not one of the harmonics.

4. There may be multiple sources, especially in urban environments. By pointing at one source it may be the least bothersome AND the one that is most bothersome may not be obvious.

5. The soil may be mixing several noise sources creating all sorts of harmonics.

Not trying to step on any body's toes, but after 40 years in radio and having designed a few dozen antennas I hope I can pass along some of what I've learned.

HH
BarnacleBill

 

[Cody]

Good post and suggestions. When you noise cancel do you just lift it up with no particular consideration for direction? I understand what you are saying and the Explorer coil is very directional and like any metal conductor can be a very good or very poor antenna. Do you look around to see if there are any obvious sources of RF or just go with how you happen to be standing when you noise cancel other than the obvious such as not being next to a vehicle, under power lines, etc.

 

[BarnacleBill]

I cancel in the middle of the area where I will be hunting. Whether under power lines or not. I do not find any need to face any particular compass point as long as the coil is elevated and parallel to the soil.

Now there is an exception to this, when I am testing the noise immunity of a new detector. Nearby is a small generating plant with a sub-station on it's perimeter to provide a local feed of it's high tension lines. The high tension lines look to be in the 125KV level based on tower height and insulator length. As you can imagine the EM field is quite hot especially with the Ground Screen they have buried under the sub-station for lightning dispersion.

So I walk around this area orienting the coil in different directions and noise cancelling as I go to note the effects in change of coil position. I believe this would be a useful exercise for anyone testing their current machines or new ones. A caveat is to be noted, post 9-11 walking around the perimeter of a power plant with a strange stick in your hand might draw security attention, don't be surprised and certainly follow all LEO requests. And I would never never ever do this near a nuclear plant!!!!

But this exercise does bring to mind some esoteric electronic questions that may have some practical consequences. Those questions relate to eddy currents and core saturation in inductors. Just as a DC current can have very undesirable effects on inductor performance, and lower frequencies need larger cores to avoid saturation, I lay the following question on the table.

"If I am standing under a power line with a 60Hz field which can easily penetrate hundreds of feet into the ground strata, and there is a coin whose flux density is at 60Hz saturation, will this affect a detector trying to induce let's say a 7KHz current in it?"

No effect?
Detect the coin better?
Some effect, detect coin worse?

This question is different than what effect the 60Hz is having on the detector as far as circuit noise filtering. And I think it is a valid question as it may have more effect than understood especially where 60Hz is concerned.

HH
BarnacleBill

 

[JBM]

Well many of you guys have said much of what there is to be said.

I will keep this simple.

The Explorer Special Edition is the sweetest all round detector that I have ever owned.

I have had an Explorer since the day they came into the market place and always liked them apart from some of the build quality.(Shafts)

On this occasion Mr Minelab has listened to our gripes and apart from the weight factor has given us a cracking detector.

I pulled out a copper halfpenny yesterday from nearly 24inches and using Pitch Hold the SE held onto the tone given.

10 minutes later out came the coin and from a narrow hole almost straight down.(Not like the old pinpointing inaccuracies)

I have also started using the Platypus with it and that also seems fine.

Well its time for another cup of coffee good hunting to you all.Jerry.

 

[Jackpine Savage]

But when the hair on the back of my neck is standing up and I got a tingling feeling all over I don't detect there.

Tom

 

[Cody]

There is a dramatic decrease in electromagnetic flux density emanation based on the square of the distance, I think, from the source to the target. Thank goodness or we would have all kinds of dead things under high voltage power lines and would not want to hunt there anyway. Electromagnetic induction in a nearby object also has to take into consideration the wavelength of 60hz which is extremely long. Again, thank God or a lot of guys would have fried detectors that get near power lines. I don't think a coin in the soil will have a 60hz component at saturation.

However, I think I read in your problem the idea that has been around for a long time and that is to use a current to cause the electrons in targets to be in a state of high excitation. We can then use our detectors to detect the target at a great depth. I have never seen this done but there are a few devices on the market now and then that are suppose to do this.

 

[Cody]

I with you on this as after all these years I still don't like to get under high voltage power lines. I realize absolutely no one wants to hear this but a detector

 

[Chris(SoCenWI)]

Very interesting post. I often noticed that I can get decent stability at a given setting with the coil above the ground but it goes to heck once the coil is on the ground. I think your post is one of the first I've seen that addresses this issue.

Reason I say go to the classroom is that posts get pushed down to quick on this forum.

Chris

 

[Cody]

I agree with you and wondered when it would be suggested to go to the classroom forum. I know enough to want to know more from but don't want to bog down a regular forum with the tech stuff.

 

[JM]

Jerry your saying 24",come on you don't have to do this ,and I DONT WANT TO CALL YOU A LIAR ,how much of the tape is chewed off ,one thing ,you tell a good tale ,Have had an explorer since they first come on the market ,and 24" on a coin ,way out man

 

[Charles (Upstate NY)]

n/t