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response time/recovery speed??
- Thread starter sgoss66
- Start date
jackintexas
New member
Time/recovery is the time it takes a detector to reset itself for the next target. Which in turn determines the sweep speed you would be using. Some detectors like the Tesoros have a very fast recovery speed. Others like the Explorers have a slow sweep speed. Bury some items like coins, pulltabs and other junk items. Remember where they are buried. Practice going over them at different swinging speeds. You will soon discover which speed is right for you and the detector you are using at the time.....Jack
sgoss66
Well-known member
jackintexas --
Thanks for the response. So, you are saying that if there are two targets within, say, a couple of inches of each other, and you swing too fast across both of them with a "slow recovery speed" detector, you might only get an indication of the first target, and not the second?
I can say that I have noticed that I tend to swing "fast," and at times it seems to be "too fast" for my detector; hard to put into words, but I have sensed that there is a "too fast" (as well as a "too slow") for my machine. Guess it's part of getting to know your equipment -- and I certainly have a long way to go. I still don't understand the notch and auto notch very well; I get to where I think I understand conceptually, but then in the field, I sometimes get a bit confused by what I'm seeing, as compared to what I would have expected to see, with different targets and how the machine responds to them. I would love to have someone explain to me the "logic" within the programming of the machine, in terms of its discrimination modes. It frustrates me enough that I sometimes just switch to "all metal" mode, where I don't have to worry about understanding the logic/programming. That lasts, though, until I start digging a million nails and pull tabs, and then it's back to the harder-to-understand "discriminating" modes!
Anyway, I got off topic there! Thanks for the help!
Steve
Thanks for the response. So, you are saying that if there are two targets within, say, a couple of inches of each other, and you swing too fast across both of them with a "slow recovery speed" detector, you might only get an indication of the first target, and not the second?
I can say that I have noticed that I tend to swing "fast," and at times it seems to be "too fast" for my detector; hard to put into words, but I have sensed that there is a "too fast" (as well as a "too slow") for my machine. Guess it's part of getting to know your equipment -- and I certainly have a long way to go. I still don't understand the notch and auto notch very well; I get to where I think I understand conceptually, but then in the field, I sometimes get a bit confused by what I'm seeing, as compared to what I would have expected to see, with different targets and how the machine responds to them. I would love to have someone explain to me the "logic" within the programming of the machine, in terms of its discrimination modes. It frustrates me enough that I sometimes just switch to "all metal" mode, where I don't have to worry about understanding the logic/programming. That lasts, though, until I start digging a million nails and pull tabs, and then it's back to the harder-to-understand "discriminating" modes!
Anyway, I got off topic there! Thanks for the help!
Steve
mwaynebennett
New member
Modern metal detectors analyze targets based upon their electromagnetic properties. At one end of the spectrum is iron and the other, silver. In between and with some overlap are gold, aluminum, zinc and copper, to list the commonly found targets. If you are not interested in digging aluminum, then you can notch it out. That means that the detector will give indications to targets made of materials on either side of the the notched material and ignore the aluminum. It is not a perfect system because sometimes iron that is heavily corroded show up as silver. Also, gold can appear as anything from iron to zinc. Nickels also appear in the aluminum/gold range, so if you notch out aluminum then you will most likely not detect gold or nickels.
Mark
Mark
sgoss66
Well-known member
Mark,
I can clearly understand, in theory, how the different metals have different electromagnetic properties, and the idea that based on this, "cutting out" certain types of metals (junk) could be beneficial, with the caveat that you may lose some valuable metal too -- especially gold. Your "iron at one end, silver at the other, and mixed in between" is a nice clear picture to keep in my mind that makes sense. Along those lines, several days ago I checked my wife's very small gold ring, and it hit in the 5 cent range on the ID. My much larger gold ring, meanwhile, hit in the pull tab range. So, I can see where gold is a tough one.
My issue is that I don't want to lose gold, but at the same time, I can't stand running in all metals mode, and digging every target (especially near old homesteads) -- which results in me digging 50,000 nails and similar iron scraps. I spend two hours, I've hardly covered any ground as I've hit, and dug, up a million targets, and 99% are iron nails/scraps. Then, it's time to go home, frustrated. My new compromise in these areas has been to run in disc mode, with the discrimination dialed very low -- filtering out only iron (hopefully not much gold). This works OK for me; the problem I run into is when trying to use "notch" and "auto notch" to eliminate the SECOND most plentiful target -- pull tabs and bottle caps. I would SWEAR that my detector does not "work" properly in the notch and auto notch modes. The machine simply does not behave the way I expect it to, based on my (possibly incorrect) understanding of these modes. First, if I understand correctly, auto notch is supposed to eliminate iron/foil, and then include the next segment, nickels, but then exclude the "pull tab" segment. Then, by turing up the discrimination knob, you can select an even wider range of stuff, beyond pull tabs, in the "medium" range -- i.e. screw caps and even into zinc pennies if you want. Just last night, though, at a city park (obviously with lots of pull tabs and screw caps) I put my machine in auto notch, and set the discrimination very low -- expecting no iron/foil, and no pull tabs. However, I was getting all kinds of tones, including some which were showing up as iron/foil, and some as pull tabs and screw caps. I was confused as to the iron/foil hits, as I thought they were knocked out in auto notch mode. Further, I turned up the discrimination, and even moving to the 12:00 position, I'd still get hits in the s-caps/pull tabs range, plus the iron/foil hits. Confusing!! The only thing I could think was that it was cold out (near freezing), so maybe my batteries didn't have enough juice in those conditions for the machine to behave. Along those lines, my depth of locating objects seemed very, very limited as well.
Finally, I got frustrated, put it back in disc mode, tossed a pull tab on the ground, and turned up the discrimination dial until it just disappeared. I knew I'd be likely missing most "gold" doing this, but it was the best I could do in the circumstances. This mode behaved as I expected -- for the vast majority of my steady, repeatable, non-varying hits, they were shallow coins. That's why I'm wondering if my notch and auto notch modes are not working properly.
Doing all this, though, led me to another question. Why is disc, notch, and auto notch even needed? If I run in all metals mode, I still get probable target IDs. So, if in all metals mode the target gets ID'd as iron/foil, wouldn't a choice to "not dig it" be the same as running in disc mode, low discrimination, and thus never hearing the iron/foil beep in the first place (and thus the same result -- not digging it?) I ask this because in all metals mode, given the "variable" tone, there are tone distinctions that might be useful, beyond the limited, "low, medium, high" tone pitches in the other modes. In all metal mode with the "variable" tone, there seems to be a different, clearer, sharper, "shorter" sound when you run over a small roundish item like a coin or pull tab, as opposed to a larger target which gives a more sustained, less "sharp" sound. I would imagine that if I ran more in all metals mode, and just chose not to dig any tone that ID'd as iron (a sort of "human discrimination!"), the benefit could be that I would still not dig nails, but I might learn the nuances in the different variable sounds of the tones in the all metals mode, and thus with experience begin to be able to differentiate and learn what objects I've likely found before digging. This seems potentially better, as opposed to using the disc/notch/auto notch modes which give only the 3 different pitches, low, medium, and high, and none of the "subtlety" you get in the steadier, more variable tone emitted in the all metals mode.
I know this is long-winded, but I'd appreciate anyone chiming in with thoughts about these issues, and what you all do to manage these problems.
Steve
I can clearly understand, in theory, how the different metals have different electromagnetic properties, and the idea that based on this, "cutting out" certain types of metals (junk) could be beneficial, with the caveat that you may lose some valuable metal too -- especially gold. Your "iron at one end, silver at the other, and mixed in between" is a nice clear picture to keep in my mind that makes sense. Along those lines, several days ago I checked my wife's very small gold ring, and it hit in the 5 cent range on the ID. My much larger gold ring, meanwhile, hit in the pull tab range. So, I can see where gold is a tough one.
My issue is that I don't want to lose gold, but at the same time, I can't stand running in all metals mode, and digging every target (especially near old homesteads) -- which results in me digging 50,000 nails and similar iron scraps. I spend two hours, I've hardly covered any ground as I've hit, and dug, up a million targets, and 99% are iron nails/scraps. Then, it's time to go home, frustrated. My new compromise in these areas has been to run in disc mode, with the discrimination dialed very low -- filtering out only iron (hopefully not much gold). This works OK for me; the problem I run into is when trying to use "notch" and "auto notch" to eliminate the SECOND most plentiful target -- pull tabs and bottle caps. I would SWEAR that my detector does not "work" properly in the notch and auto notch modes. The machine simply does not behave the way I expect it to, based on my (possibly incorrect) understanding of these modes. First, if I understand correctly, auto notch is supposed to eliminate iron/foil, and then include the next segment, nickels, but then exclude the "pull tab" segment. Then, by turing up the discrimination knob, you can select an even wider range of stuff, beyond pull tabs, in the "medium" range -- i.e. screw caps and even into zinc pennies if you want. Just last night, though, at a city park (obviously with lots of pull tabs and screw caps) I put my machine in auto notch, and set the discrimination very low -- expecting no iron/foil, and no pull tabs. However, I was getting all kinds of tones, including some which were showing up as iron/foil, and some as pull tabs and screw caps. I was confused as to the iron/foil hits, as I thought they were knocked out in auto notch mode. Further, I turned up the discrimination, and even moving to the 12:00 position, I'd still get hits in the s-caps/pull tabs range, plus the iron/foil hits. Confusing!! The only thing I could think was that it was cold out (near freezing), so maybe my batteries didn't have enough juice in those conditions for the machine to behave. Along those lines, my depth of locating objects seemed very, very limited as well.
Finally, I got frustrated, put it back in disc mode, tossed a pull tab on the ground, and turned up the discrimination dial until it just disappeared. I knew I'd be likely missing most "gold" doing this, but it was the best I could do in the circumstances. This mode behaved as I expected -- for the vast majority of my steady, repeatable, non-varying hits, they were shallow coins. That's why I'm wondering if my notch and auto notch modes are not working properly.
Doing all this, though, led me to another question. Why is disc, notch, and auto notch even needed? If I run in all metals mode, I still get probable target IDs. So, if in all metals mode the target gets ID'd as iron/foil, wouldn't a choice to "not dig it" be the same as running in disc mode, low discrimination, and thus never hearing the iron/foil beep in the first place (and thus the same result -- not digging it?) I ask this because in all metals mode, given the "variable" tone, there are tone distinctions that might be useful, beyond the limited, "low, medium, high" tone pitches in the other modes. In all metal mode with the "variable" tone, there seems to be a different, clearer, sharper, "shorter" sound when you run over a small roundish item like a coin or pull tab, as opposed to a larger target which gives a more sustained, less "sharp" sound. I would imagine that if I ran more in all metals mode, and just chose not to dig any tone that ID'd as iron (a sort of "human discrimination!"), the benefit could be that I would still not dig nails, but I might learn the nuances in the different variable sounds of the tones in the all metals mode, and thus with experience begin to be able to differentiate and learn what objects I've likely found before digging. This seems potentially better, as opposed to using the disc/notch/auto notch modes which give only the 3 different pitches, low, medium, and high, and none of the "subtlety" you get in the steadier, more variable tone emitted in the all metals mode.
I know this is long-winded, but I'd appreciate anyone chiming in with thoughts about these issues, and what you all do to manage these problems.
Steve
mwaynebennett
New member
My Elite 2200 detector is all digital, no knobs to turn, so it is a bit different than yours, however I set it to discriminate out iron and register all else. That way I still get 99% plus of gold but still have to contend with the aluminum. That is okay with me since nickels and gold share that portion of the spectrum as aluminum.
Some people only go after pre 1984 pennies, dimes, quarters, halves and dollars so they crank up the discrimination to ignore everything from zinc to iron and don
Some people only go after pre 1984 pennies, dimes, quarters, halves and dollars so they crank up the discrimination to ignore everything from zinc to iron and don
sgoss66
Well-known member
Mark --
Makes sense; I'm most interested in finding gold or silver coins/jewelry (who isn't?!!), but enjoy finding any coins. I guess there's really no way to filter junk, and not risk filtering the gold -- though it seems much easier to filter the junk and still find silver...
Thanks for the info!
Steve
Makes sense; I'm most interested in finding gold or silver coins/jewelry (who isn't?!!), but enjoy finding any coins. I guess there's really no way to filter junk, and not risk filtering the gold -- though it seems much easier to filter the junk and still find silver...
Thanks for the info!
Steve
Some great info here folks... I haven't MD'd in ten years and just bought a tesoro compadre. I've had it for a few days....found a few dollars worth of clad, lots of junk. It's definitely a coin killer and I can sense a "code" to the tone for instance, if I swing fast over a shallow penny, it gives me a double beep. I guess the secret to gaining more confidence in your machine, no matter the brand is simply to invest the time to hunt and learn the language that it speaks whether you have a single knob unit like mine or a digital brand with buttons everywhere.
MarkCZ
Well-known member
Back to recovery time!
A motion detector requires motion to respond to metal targets, (if not in all metal mode) some slower and some faster. I don't think that recover time is ONLY a term to determine how fast you swing your detector. but, to a point you may be able to adjust your sweep speed up or down a little and help unless you try and sweep to slow or fast and you start lose detector performance in other areas.
Two detectors in point,
Fisher Coinstrike, (likes a faster sweep speed)
Fisher 1266x (likes a MUCH slower sweep speed)
But the sweep speeds of the above is not for recovery time but the sweep speed for the detector to best respond to targets.
Recovery speed is the time it takes for the detector's electronics to respond to the target and reset to respond to another. I have a detector (not bounty hunter) that I can sweep over a nickle and a dime with them about three inches apart in either direction and the detector will respond to BOTH targets with two beeps and two different tones. Not great but not bad for a $200.00 detector.
Now a neighbor friend brings over his Bounty Hunter EX and I'm running it over my test garden. One known target is a US nickle at around 4" well about 5" to 6" away is an unknown iron target.
With the EX it doesn't matter how slow I sweep over the two target's if it hits the iron first the nickle just isn't there! The recovery time from the iron report is to long to reset and get the nickle and with that EX it didn't matter if I had the iron discriminated out or not. The detector still responded to the iron even if it audibly ignored it, the circuits were still busy processing the bad target to long to reset and respond to the good target.
Now to take up for that EX. It may have had something wrong with it, it was in pretty bad shape, but it still is a good example of recovery time.
Mark
A motion detector requires motion to respond to metal targets, (if not in all metal mode) some slower and some faster. I don't think that recover time is ONLY a term to determine how fast you swing your detector. but, to a point you may be able to adjust your sweep speed up or down a little and help unless you try and sweep to slow or fast and you start lose detector performance in other areas.
Two detectors in point,
Fisher Coinstrike, (likes a faster sweep speed)
Fisher 1266x (likes a MUCH slower sweep speed)
But the sweep speeds of the above is not for recovery time but the sweep speed for the detector to best respond to targets.
Recovery speed is the time it takes for the detector's electronics to respond to the target and reset to respond to another. I have a detector (not bounty hunter) that I can sweep over a nickle and a dime with them about three inches apart in either direction and the detector will respond to BOTH targets with two beeps and two different tones. Not great but not bad for a $200.00 detector.
Now a neighbor friend brings over his Bounty Hunter EX and I'm running it over my test garden. One known target is a US nickle at around 4" well about 5" to 6" away is an unknown iron target.
With the EX it doesn't matter how slow I sweep over the two target's if it hits the iron first the nickle just isn't there! The recovery time from the iron report is to long to reset and get the nickle and with that EX it didn't matter if I had the iron discriminated out or not. The detector still responded to the iron even if it audibly ignored it, the circuits were still busy processing the bad target to long to reset and respond to the good target.
Now to take up for that EX. It may have had something wrong with it, it was in pretty bad shape, but it still is a good example of recovery time.
Mark
Hey Steve, I'm a newbie and have a BH IV, but here's my 2 cents. I just went out and played with the controls big time yesterday. I put it on All Metal and when I would detect something I switched it to tone or disc, and played with the sensitivity, etc. I tried a "coin garden" but found playing in the field was much more educational. I tried to dig for every thing I detected regardless (I say tried because the ground was still frozen in many spots and didn't have a proper digging tool). After an hour I was pretty sure I was digging up junk, but dug it up anyway to confirm. In my limited experience, all of 2.5 hrs, I would suggest playing with the MD in the field. Change the modes on the MD after you detect something w/All Metal, dig it up, and you'll get to know your MD a lot better! It may be tedious in the beginning to go over and over the same spot in different modes, but it will be worth it in the end. After all my playing, I knew what might be a quarter, penny or aluminum can before I dug it up at the end of my first time out. If I were an experienced MD I'm sure I would've found a LOT more in 2.5 hrs, but this was a learning experience for me and we all have to start somewhere 
sgoss66
Well-known member
Thanks everyone for the additional thoughts. Several of you talked about just getting used to how the machine responds to different targets and yes, that is certainly the key. I have used mine enough that I'm getting less "surprised" than I used to be when I dig up targets, in terms of what I'm expecting to dig based on the detector's response, and then what I actually find when I finish digging.
MarkCZ --
That's some really interesting info regarding "recovery time." I see what you are saying about how that EX machine wouldn't "see" the nickel if it hit the iron target first, the assumption being that it was too busy processing the info from the first target. I assume if you swept the coil the other direction, hitting the nickel first, that it would have seen the nickel and not the iron? Sounds like basically you are describing recovery time as being how fast the "processor" inside the machine works. I'm no electronic engineer, but I guess similar to a computer, it has to be finished working on one task or calculation before starting another -- and how long that takes is related to your processor speed.
I do find it interesting though that it didn't matter how slow you swept across the targets...I would have thought that you should have been able to find a slow enough sweep speed so that eventually it would have "seen" both targets (unless the sweep speed it would have required to give the machine enough time to process the info would have been TOO slow for the detector to work properly). I wonder though if part of the problem was that the iron was simply too strong of a target, and since both would have been under the 8" coil at the same time (since you said the two targets were less than 6" apart), that the iron just overwhelmed the nickel such that the BH couldn't separate the two. If so, I'm curious if A.) a smaller coil on that EX, or B.) if raising the coil higher off the ground might have given you some ability to "see" both targets, or if it is purely the electronics that are the issue in that case. I'd be fascinated to have an engineer or someone like that explain what it was in the engineering of the two detectors that allowed one to be able to see both targets, while the other machine could only see one...
Along these lines, does anyone know if, as you move "up" in the BH model line towards higher-dollar detectors, if the "recovery time" shortens -- i.e. the electronics process information faster?
Steve
MarkCZ --
That's some really interesting info regarding "recovery time." I see what you are saying about how that EX machine wouldn't "see" the nickel if it hit the iron target first, the assumption being that it was too busy processing the info from the first target. I assume if you swept the coil the other direction, hitting the nickel first, that it would have seen the nickel and not the iron? Sounds like basically you are describing recovery time as being how fast the "processor" inside the machine works. I'm no electronic engineer, but I guess similar to a computer, it has to be finished working on one task or calculation before starting another -- and how long that takes is related to your processor speed.
I do find it interesting though that it didn't matter how slow you swept across the targets...I would have thought that you should have been able to find a slow enough sweep speed so that eventually it would have "seen" both targets (unless the sweep speed it would have required to give the machine enough time to process the info would have been TOO slow for the detector to work properly). I wonder though if part of the problem was that the iron was simply too strong of a target, and since both would have been under the 8" coil at the same time (since you said the two targets were less than 6" apart), that the iron just overwhelmed the nickel such that the BH couldn't separate the two. If so, I'm curious if A.) a smaller coil on that EX, or B.) if raising the coil higher off the ground might have given you some ability to "see" both targets, or if it is purely the electronics that are the issue in that case. I'd be fascinated to have an engineer or someone like that explain what it was in the engineering of the two detectors that allowed one to be able to see both targets, while the other machine could only see one...
Along these lines, does anyone know if, as you move "up" in the BH model line towards higher-dollar detectors, if the "recovery time" shortens -- i.e. the electronics process information faster?
Steve
MarkCZ
Well-known member
Steve, some time this coming week I'm expecting to receive a used Land Star and so I will be able to test the recovery speed of it.
You can get a little idea of recovery speed and sweep speed by doing some air testing.
Sweep first, wave a coin past the coil 3" to 4" inches out at different speeds from slow to fast and listen for a good, bad or no response.
Recovery time, use a coin and small junk iron item, spread them apart a couple of inches and wave them past the search coil one first then the other. What your looking for is how close you can get the two items together and the detector pick up TWO targets (beep, beep)
Also, you can go to youtube and do a search for "Detector Recovery Speed" I don't know if you can find someone with a Bounty Hunter detector in a video but you will find them testing other brands, which will give yo a good idea of the what's and the nots of recovery speed.
Mark
You can get a little idea of recovery speed and sweep speed by doing some air testing.
Sweep first, wave a coin past the coil 3" to 4" inches out at different speeds from slow to fast and listen for a good, bad or no response.
Recovery time, use a coin and small junk iron item, spread them apart a couple of inches and wave them past the search coil one first then the other. What your looking for is how close you can get the two items together and the detector pick up TWO targets (beep, beep)
Also, you can go to youtube and do a search for "Detector Recovery Speed" I don't know if you can find someone with a Bounty Hunter detector in a video but you will find them testing other brands, which will give yo a good idea of the what's and the nots of recovery speed.
Mark
Ed in SoDak
Member
The Discovery 3000 is most similar to the Sharpshooter II, so there's another source for info on it.
Here's a paragraph from the D.3000 manual on using Notch:
Follow these steps to set the detector to the NOTCH target mode.
1. Press NOTCH on the front panel of the detector. An arrow on the bottom display points to NOTCH.
2. Find a sample of the material you want the detector to ignore (such as a pull tab), place the item under the searchcoil, then adjust DISC/NOTCH until it does not detect the material.
3. Find a sample of the material you want the detector to find (such as a nickel or gold ring), place the item under the searchcoil, then make sure the detector detects the material. If the detector does not detect the material, repeat Step 2, as necessary, to adjust the notch.
Note: Some junk metal, such as pull tabs and pieces of pull tabs, have nearly the same characteristics as nickels and some gold rings. If this happens, you might not be able to narrow the detector's notch closely enough to prevent the detector from detecting the pull tabs.
=-=-=-=-=-=
One of the problems with this is junk items such as pulltabs are hardly uniform as there are so many styles and shapes. Unlike a coin, where metallic composition and shape are precisely controlled. It is difficult in practice to make all tabs fit into a tidy notch. Even if it is set properly, a tab on the outer edge of a coil can still chime in.
If you suspect there's multiple targets under the coil, raising the coil may help. Using a smaller coil is also a good idea for hunting trashy areas. Either method has the effect of putting a narrower signal into the soil. Obviously some depth will be lost and you'll need to make more sweeps to adequately cover an area.
I own a Time Ranger and I don't think it's any faster at recovery than your machine. Two nearby targets will sometimes merge into a composite signal that has the ID of neither target, but somewhere between them.
If your detector in All-Metal mode sounds continuously when over metal, you can use this to help determine the relative size of the signal. By raising the coil as you swing, you may get it to show whether it's one large target or two or more smaller ones.
You can do bench tests to see what's happening. I set up for bench-testing by removing the stem and coil and placing it on the table so the coil is off to the side. Weight the stem to hold it in position. Now you can place the detector so you can easily sweep items and watch the display.
Make a simple "wand" from a stick or stiff cardboard. Make it as wide as you'd like to test for target separation and recovery speed. Tape two objects on the edges of your wand so there's some distance between them.
Sweep them any way you'd like against the coil. It's easy to sweep fast or slow, change angles or orientation of the test objects or their relative distances from the coil. Play with the various controls as you test and you'll soon see where your best settings might be.
There will still be a lot of variation in the field, as there's really no sure way of handling the infinite combinations of soil, moisture, target variability, etc., etc. That's why it's always said "When in doubt, dig it out." Most every machine made will suffer from these same issues, as it's a matter of conductivity and electromagnetic response. Of course some designs will handle these problems better than others, but they all "see" the same basic signal.
I also have a T2. It is hugely faster than my Time Ranger and has far fewer problems with detecting multiple targets and separating them into individual signals. Masking and altered or misleading ID can still be a problem. None of the current designs is perfect in evry way on every signal.
Experience with your machine can go a long ways toward evening out the differences between models. A lesser machine in more capable hands can often do better than an inexperienced hunter using a high-power detector.
-Ed
Here's a paragraph from the D.3000 manual on using Notch:
Follow these steps to set the detector to the NOTCH target mode.
1. Press NOTCH on the front panel of the detector. An arrow on the bottom display points to NOTCH.
2. Find a sample of the material you want the detector to ignore (such as a pull tab), place the item under the searchcoil, then adjust DISC/NOTCH until it does not detect the material.
3. Find a sample of the material you want the detector to find (such as a nickel or gold ring), place the item under the searchcoil, then make sure the detector detects the material. If the detector does not detect the material, repeat Step 2, as necessary, to adjust the notch.
Note: Some junk metal, such as pull tabs and pieces of pull tabs, have nearly the same characteristics as nickels and some gold rings. If this happens, you might not be able to narrow the detector's notch closely enough to prevent the detector from detecting the pull tabs.
=-=-=-=-=-=
One of the problems with this is junk items such as pulltabs are hardly uniform as there are so many styles and shapes. Unlike a coin, where metallic composition and shape are precisely controlled. It is difficult in practice to make all tabs fit into a tidy notch. Even if it is set properly, a tab on the outer edge of a coil can still chime in.
If you suspect there's multiple targets under the coil, raising the coil may help. Using a smaller coil is also a good idea for hunting trashy areas. Either method has the effect of putting a narrower signal into the soil. Obviously some depth will be lost and you'll need to make more sweeps to adequately cover an area.
I own a Time Ranger and I don't think it's any faster at recovery than your machine. Two nearby targets will sometimes merge into a composite signal that has the ID of neither target, but somewhere between them.
If your detector in All-Metal mode sounds continuously when over metal, you can use this to help determine the relative size of the signal. By raising the coil as you swing, you may get it to show whether it's one large target or two or more smaller ones.
You can do bench tests to see what's happening. I set up for bench-testing by removing the stem and coil and placing it on the table so the coil is off to the side. Weight the stem to hold it in position. Now you can place the detector so you can easily sweep items and watch the display.
Make a simple "wand" from a stick or stiff cardboard. Make it as wide as you'd like to test for target separation and recovery speed. Tape two objects on the edges of your wand so there's some distance between them.
Sweep them any way you'd like against the coil. It's easy to sweep fast or slow, change angles or orientation of the test objects or their relative distances from the coil. Play with the various controls as you test and you'll soon see where your best settings might be.
There will still be a lot of variation in the field, as there's really no sure way of handling the infinite combinations of soil, moisture, target variability, etc., etc. That's why it's always said "When in doubt, dig it out." Most every machine made will suffer from these same issues, as it's a matter of conductivity and electromagnetic response. Of course some designs will handle these problems better than others, but they all "see" the same basic signal.
I also have a T2. It is hugely faster than my Time Ranger and has far fewer problems with detecting multiple targets and separating them into individual signals. Masking and altered or misleading ID can still be a problem. None of the current designs is perfect in evry way on every signal.
Experience with your machine can go a long ways toward evening out the differences between models. A lesser machine in more capable hands can often do better than an inexperienced hunter using a high-power detector.
-Ed
Ed in SoDak
Member
While I'm thinking on this topic, here's a few other considerations. If you're hunting such a trashed-out area, perhaps you're the first to put in the effort to search it thoroughly. Eventually, you'll pay your dues by digging enough nails and maybe the good targets will begin to show up.
If you don't have a pinpointer, get one. It may be useful for finding the individual signals of shallow multiple groups. Carry a magnet or even try a magnetic rake to help get the iron junk on the surface or in your search hole. Whatever speeds up the trash-removal phase will get you to recovering the good items sooner.
Or you can become more selective as to where you hunt. Look for the outhouse or cellarhole. Check around doorways and shady spots. more-so than along walls that faced hot summer sun. If any trees or their stumps are around, they may have provided gathering spots. There's likely to be fewer nails there as well.
You can try placing a good target into a trash-infested area and see if you can get a response. This may help tell you if you're missing any good targets or perhaps there's simply few to none there.
No doubt you will have a big masking problem at this site. Some people have actually gone back to using older analog VLF/TR machines for picking through iron sites as they seem to be more able to see a good target mixed in with iron. Pulltabs may be too high in conductivity to eliminate effectively, but there's bound to be fewer of them than nails, so eventually you'll get them removed from the site.
Good Luck!!
-Ed
If you don't have a pinpointer, get one. It may be useful for finding the individual signals of shallow multiple groups. Carry a magnet or even try a magnetic rake to help get the iron junk on the surface or in your search hole. Whatever speeds up the trash-removal phase will get you to recovering the good items sooner.
Or you can become more selective as to where you hunt. Look for the outhouse or cellarhole. Check around doorways and shady spots. more-so than along walls that faced hot summer sun. If any trees or their stumps are around, they may have provided gathering spots. There's likely to be fewer nails there as well.
You can try placing a good target into a trash-infested area and see if you can get a response. This may help tell you if you're missing any good targets or perhaps there's simply few to none there.
No doubt you will have a big masking problem at this site. Some people have actually gone back to using older analog VLF/TR machines for picking through iron sites as they seem to be more able to see a good target mixed in with iron. Pulltabs may be too high in conductivity to eliminate effectively, but there's bound to be fewer of them than nails, so eventually you'll get them removed from the site.
Good Luck!!
-Ed
@ Ed in SoDak
Ed that is some good information, I agree with you on " I own a Time Ranger and I don't think it's any faster at recovery than your machine"
RECOVERY TIME - The duration of time it takes a metal detector to respond to the next target after responding to the previous. Detectors with slow recovery speeds often are unable to respond to all targets in close proximity when discrimination is used
Ed that is some good information, I agree with you on " I own a Time Ranger and I don't think it's any faster at recovery than your machine"
RECOVERY TIME - The duration of time it takes a metal detector to respond to the next target after responding to the previous. Detectors with slow recovery speeds often are unable to respond to all targets in close proximity when discrimination is used
mwaynebennett
New member
Hey Movingon:
Have you thought of building a platform out of pvc pipe and mounting your detectors on it and placing wheels on the thing and then hooking up solenoids to the speakers of each so that when a target is detected, the solenoid fires and depresses the spray button on a can of spray paint? You could then pull the assembly behind you with a riding lawnmower and as each detector found a target, it would squirt a blast of spray paint where the target was. You could then go an re-check those spots and more precisely pin point the location of the targets. Heck you could cover an entire football field in about an hour.
Mark
Have you thought of building a platform out of pvc pipe and mounting your detectors on it and placing wheels on the thing and then hooking up solenoids to the speakers of each so that when a target is detected, the solenoid fires and depresses the spray button on a can of spray paint? You could then pull the assembly behind you with a riding lawnmower and as each detector found a target, it would squirt a blast of spray paint where the target was. You could then go an re-check those spots and more precisely pin point the location of the targets. Heck you could cover an entire football field in about an hour.
Mark
That is a good idea! 
To tell the truth I did think about it but my idea was behind my ATV... the lawnmower could cut the grass!!!! Guess I have too many detectors, I have never got rid of any of mine and loan most of them out to guys I work with that think they might like Detecting. I have four out right now plus my Brother uses one.... my newest one..
But if I can help get people in the hobby its All Good! I would really like to get down to one or two but I see lots of people with a closet full. 
To tell the truth I did think about it but my idea was behind my ATV... the lawnmower could cut the grass!!!! Guess I have too many detectors, I have never got rid of any of mine and loan most of them out to guys I work with that think they might like Detecting. I have four out right now plus my Brother uses one.... my newest one.. But if I can help get people in the hobby its All Good! I would really like to get down to one or two but I see lots of people with a closet full. Hey Steve some tests can show the basics of recovery speeds.
For instance, I have an older 3300 that has about the slowest recovery speed that I have ever seen.
Place 2 different items on clean ground and vary spacing until the detector can't separate and give 2 signals.
Then there is another matter to deal with and that is target masking which can cause a missed signal on a desired item.
For instance place a couple of nails on each side of a coin and vary the distance between the nails, making notes of the results.
Sweep across the nails, both lengthwise on nails and across diameter wise of the nails, noting if you get a non-ferrous sound/meter reading on the coin
between the nails.
This should give you an idea of how the detector is reacting regarding recovery and masking.
Of course this is only a test and real world results may be different for the better or worse.
For instance, I have an older 3300 that has about the slowest recovery speed that I have ever seen.
Place 2 different items on clean ground and vary spacing until the detector can't separate and give 2 signals.
Then there is another matter to deal with and that is target masking which can cause a missed signal on a desired item.
For instance place a couple of nails on each side of a coin and vary the distance between the nails, making notes of the results.
Sweep across the nails, both lengthwise on nails and across diameter wise of the nails, noting if you get a non-ferrous sound/meter reading on the coin
between the nails.
This should give you an idea of how the detector is reacting regarding recovery and masking.
Of course this is only a test and real world results may be different for the better or worse.
sgoss66
Well-known member
Wow, what a ton of info! Thanks, guys!
MarkCZ --
Your idea of air testing is something I hadn't really thought of (DUH!), and will do that. I'll also check out youtube, another good idea. I'd like to hear your thoughts on that Land Star once you get it.
Ed in SoDak --
HOLY COW! Tons of info there. Thanks so much for your time. A few things. One, I think I've found out that my machine is not working in notch or auto notch modes, which would explain why I was confused. I need to do some testing at home to be sure, but a few days ago -- the last time I was out, I put the machine in disc mode, tossed a pull tab on the ground, and turned up my disc/notch dial until I lost the pull tab. That was fine. But, at one point, I decided that I wanted to be able to find nickels, and maybe some gold, so I wanted to try once again to use a "notch." I tossed the pull tab back on the ground, and put my machine in auto notch -- expecting that it should, like the manual states, filter out iron and pull tabs as a starting point -- and then I could adjust the notch larger if I needed to. Well, the detector was toning on the pull tab. So, I figured "maybe I just need to widen the notch a bit." So, I started turning the dial. Eventually, I had it turned all the way up, and I was STILL seeing that pull tab, the same pull tab I was able to discriminate out with the disc/notch dial turned to about 12:00 with the machine in disc mode. I tried it then in notch, not auto notch, and had the same problem. I couldn't get the pull tab notched out no matter how high I turned my disc/notch dial up.
You also mentioned "bench testing," similar to the "air testing" mentioned by MarkCZ. I intend to to do that -- expecially once my Time Ranger arrives, with (I assume) a properly-functioning ability to "notch" things out.
I also found it very interesting what you said about "eventually cleaning out the trash to possibly open the way to better targets." Another DUH! moment -- I never thought of it that way, i.e. "paying your dues" digging up and removing junk to make finding any good stuff easier in the future. What a great way to learn your detector (digging everything it finds), while also clearing out your search area to find the other stuff that might be there, perhaps a bit deeper, or otherwise "masked" by the iron/junk. Funny that you mentioned a pin-pointer; I just bought one for the first time this morning. You also mentioned a magnet -- another great idea. Do you have any suggestion as to where I can buy a nice, strong magnet (aside from some goofy thing you'd stick on your refrigerator to hold papers?!) Finally, can you tell me a bit more about your "outhouse or cellar holes" thought? I don't know what a cellar hole is, and with outhouses, I am guessing that searching near one, you might hope to find coins or whatever that fell out as the users "dropped their drawers" to do their business?!
movingon --
Sounds like you agree that I won't be gaining any recovery speed with the Time Ranger; hopefully, I'll learn to use it effectively nonetheless.
Steve
MarkCZ --
Your idea of air testing is something I hadn't really thought of (DUH!), and will do that. I'll also check out youtube, another good idea. I'd like to hear your thoughts on that Land Star once you get it.
Ed in SoDak --
HOLY COW! Tons of info there. Thanks so much for your time. A few things. One, I think I've found out that my machine is not working in notch or auto notch modes, which would explain why I was confused. I need to do some testing at home to be sure, but a few days ago -- the last time I was out, I put the machine in disc mode, tossed a pull tab on the ground, and turned up my disc/notch dial until I lost the pull tab. That was fine. But, at one point, I decided that I wanted to be able to find nickels, and maybe some gold, so I wanted to try once again to use a "notch." I tossed the pull tab back on the ground, and put my machine in auto notch -- expecting that it should, like the manual states, filter out iron and pull tabs as a starting point -- and then I could adjust the notch larger if I needed to. Well, the detector was toning on the pull tab. So, I figured "maybe I just need to widen the notch a bit." So, I started turning the dial. Eventually, I had it turned all the way up, and I was STILL seeing that pull tab, the same pull tab I was able to discriminate out with the disc/notch dial turned to about 12:00 with the machine in disc mode. I tried it then in notch, not auto notch, and had the same problem. I couldn't get the pull tab notched out no matter how high I turned my disc/notch dial up.
You also mentioned "bench testing," similar to the "air testing" mentioned by MarkCZ. I intend to to do that -- expecially once my Time Ranger arrives, with (I assume) a properly-functioning ability to "notch" things out.
I also found it very interesting what you said about "eventually cleaning out the trash to possibly open the way to better targets." Another DUH! moment -- I never thought of it that way, i.e. "paying your dues" digging up and removing junk to make finding any good stuff easier in the future. What a great way to learn your detector (digging everything it finds), while also clearing out your search area to find the other stuff that might be there, perhaps a bit deeper, or otherwise "masked" by the iron/junk. Funny that you mentioned a pin-pointer; I just bought one for the first time this morning. You also mentioned a magnet -- another great idea. Do you have any suggestion as to where I can buy a nice, strong magnet (aside from some goofy thing you'd stick on your refrigerator to hold papers?!) Finally, can you tell me a bit more about your "outhouse or cellar holes" thought? I don't know what a cellar hole is, and with outhouses, I am guessing that searching near one, you might hope to find coins or whatever that fell out as the users "dropped their drawers" to do their business?!
movingon --
Sounds like you agree that I won't be gaining any recovery speed with the Time Ranger; hopefully, I'll learn to use it effectively nonetheless.
Steve
jackintexas
New member
The old saying about metal detecting is if you think you are swinging too slow. Slow down some more....Jack