Racer 2 Thoughts from the field

[Keith Southern]

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKQtvkiLszA[/video]

 

[Jackpine Savage]

It is also true that, generally, a Concentric coil will provide a more consistent, repeatable response, audio and visual display, than will a DD designed coil, and that is also due to the dynamics of the coil design and inconsistent behavior based upon the sweep approach of the DD coils where one direction has the Transmit winding in the lead and the other direction has the Receive winding in a closer relationship with the target on the coil's approach.

Both coil types, Concentric and Double-D might be more responsive out from the edges of the search coil, but that isn't directly associated with the coil design itself, but with the metal detector's circuitry design. I have shown this effect with several low-cost to mid-priced models over the past decade when demonstrating strengths and weaknesses of different search coils and brands of detectors when people have asked how to deal with searching near metal fences and such at sports fields, or metal structures in playgrounds.. It's all a combination of detector circuitry design and search coil design, and not based upon a multi-frequency Vs single-frequency topic.

There are a few very good books out there that help explain more about search coil design and the real EMF that is generated out from a coil. I have seen very good visual descriptions from both Tesoro, in recent years, and Garrett, even back to the early '70s, that displayed how an EMF generally appears. I have also seen and read too many articles and sketches that have shown a 'V' or 'cone-shaped' field being sent out from a search coil and the writer errantly says the detectors send a signal in a 'v' or 'cone' shape. That kind of wrong information gets out there and the average consumer is easily confused or, simply, misguided in how things really work. Worse still, they think that's right because they read it, so they boast the same wrong concept.



I just don't want people to misunderstand a reference to a 'Cone-Shape' EMF or be confused by a size of response based upon multi-frequency vs single-frequency detector design.

What I really would like people to understand is just how well these two brands of detectors work in the real world, and encourage them to get out detecting as often as possible.

Monte

Great post Monte. Dave J. has also stated that beyond a few inches there is no difference in the field shapes or perhaps more accurately, the detection pattern of DD and Concentric coils.

I still get a kick out of the illustrations you seen in ads.

Tom

 

[OregonGregg]

Keith, that's one hell of an air test. My question is......do you feel there might have been some Alien intervention or is the machine just that good. Hell maybe the Nokta /Makro folks got there hands on some alien technology. Either way the machines sure do work great By the way, that was pretty cool how the alien head kept popping up in the shadows lol.

 

[Flbchbm]

You need to be digging all those junk items! I always dig everything these days , i am convinced what i will dig will be a pull tab or other junk item , have a guess what 90% of the time it is junk. The other 10% often surprises me with a good find , like a coin , jewelry , or other good item. I can't do long hunts digging junk though , 1 or 2 hours thats it , day over...

True, however sometimes its nice to just cherry pick. Sometimes, if you dug every signal it would take hours to cover a very small area. Some park areas are so carpeted with signals that you would be better off with a back hoe and a screen. The target separation on my Fors CoRe leaves a lot to be desired. Nickles and pull tabs are 56-60. Pennies and pop cans or steel bottle caps are 82-84. Hence, the desire to know what the VID is for some common trash items on the Racer. I am sure I am not the only one that is curious. Might be worth upgrading if the Racer 2 has successfully addressed this short-coming.

 

[Monte]

You need to be digging all those junk items! I always dig everything these days , i am convinced what i will dig will be a pull tab or other junk item , have a guess what 90% of the time it is junk. The other 10% often surprises me with a good find , like a coin , jewelry , or other good item. I can't do long hunts digging junk though , 1 or 2 hours thats it , day over...

At most of the sites I hunt I dig almost everything I can, if it is not likely-to-be iron junk. I recover pull-tabs, pry-tabs, screw caps, most foil, and a lot of other junk ... if it is a non-ferrous type of trash ... in most applications I hunt in an urban environment. When working the more isolated sites where iron nails are the primary offender, I often hear them but audibly ignore them, unless they are in a very annoying close relationship. Then, after a while, when I am bothered too much and I use only enough Discrimination to just barely reject iron nails. No more than that.

On the Racer 2 I can still accept those low VDI numbers, and simply eliminate hearing the loud, abrupt audio bark of closely-spaced nails and other small iron by adjusting the Iron Audio Volume to a minimal level [size=small](I use a setting of '2')[/size] so I know they are there, but am less bothered by the iron while listening for closely associated non-ferrous targets.

True, however sometimes its nice to just cherry pick. Sometimes, if you dug every signal it would take hours to cover a very small area. Some park areas are so carpeted with signals that you would be better off with a back hoe and a screen.

And I agree, in some applications, based on the volume of trash or maybe just because you have very limited tome to hunt or limited access to the location, 'Cherry Picking' can still be a rewarding approach. At much older sites, such as railroad depots and sidings, stage stops, and other sites of activity in the 1800's and to about the Depression Era, I use the least Discrimination I can and recover all good and iffy target signals.

Working a location Oregon Gregg & I have hunted briefly the last several days, it is an old park that was never fully developed with a playground or sports field. More like a family picnic area with a lot of trees, but that's about it. The location may become a housing project so we are working it as best we can, but it is very trashy! It hasn't been used or maintained for several decades, so it has become overgrown, and some of it is used as a trash dump for unwanted brush and common junk.

Evidence of use from the late '60s thru the '70s is seen by the amount of discarded older ring-pull type tabs in many parks of the old park area. Intersperse with all of this are the more modern, rectangular pry-tabs, like now in use, and laborers who live in the general neighborhood have done their share to dress it up with a lot of foil [size=small](all sizes and conductivity ranges)[/size], screw caps, and other trash, both ferrous and non-ferrous. One portion of the location has a LOT of small iron junk. Mostly nails, but some rusty tin and other small-size iron stuff.

We have worked it by trying to tolerate the abundant iron with our FORS CoRe's, a Gold+, and I've been using the Racer 2 more because I can reduce the volume to my liking and hear very little of it to annoy me. 'Cherry Picking' has rewarded us with a fair number of wheat-back cents, a we have each pulled at least one silver US coin out of there .... but it is very trashy.

The target separation on my Fors CoRe leaves a lot to be desired.

Huh? I disagree with you on that because the Nokta and Makro detectors are excellent at target separation, with terrific unmasking capabilities. That's why they are my primary-use detectors, because they excel at weeding good targets out of very infested trashy sites.

Nickles and pull tabs are 56-60. Pennies and pop cans or steel bottle caps are 82-84. Hence, the desire to know what the VID is for some common trash items on the Racer. I am sure I am not the only one that is curious. Might be worth upgrading if the Racer 2 has successfully addressed this short-coming.

Okay, then I read this part and realized you are not talking about 'Target Separation' in search and response performance, you are making reference to how closely the TID or VDI [size=small](Visual Discrimination Indicator) [/size] numbers are spread-out so s to try and visually classify probable junk targets from possible keepers. Well, it is impossible to be 100% accurate, or sometimes even come close due to the fact that so many unwanted pieces of trash have a VDI numeric read-put that is so close to, or the same as, many of our US coins.

However, I was curious myself when I realized the Racer 2's 'Iron' was reduced from a '01' to '40' range on the original Racer, and is now only covering the '01' to '10' range. Excellent decision on Makro Detector's part, I might add. So, I gathered up an assortment of targets many Coin Hunting and Relic Hunting hobbyists might anticipate finding. Now keep in mind that there are a few ways they have made Target ID displays on detectors, and some might work easier or better for some than others.

One way is to have a segmented display that shows ranges like 'Iron' - 'Foil' - 'Nickel' - Pull-Tab' - 'screw cap' - '1¢ Zinc' - '1¢ Copper/Clad 10¢' - 'Quarter' - and ??? Some brands do not list a Dollar because big silver dollars haven't been in circulation for about 50 years, and some might show a 50¢ piece and others won't even show that because they are seldom carried anymore.

A Second method would be to use a numeric read-out [size=small](VDI)[/size], but the target read-outs are more controlled and 'programmed' to report in a more general center-of-group number. For example, maybe a maker takes all targets that would respond with a numeric read-out of '52' to '62' so that anything in that ranges is shown with an 'average' number of '57'.

For many 'average' Coin Hunting hobbyists the oboe two methods are workable and simple. By for those of us who might like a little more target definition at times, there is one more step.

A Third design is to provide a broader TID/VDI responsive range, such as on the Racer 2, and let the targets produce their own numeric read-out. With the Racer 2 TID running from ;01 to '10' for Iron and '11' up to '99' for non-ferrous targets, the targets read-outs will be spread out a little more than with the more limited Racer 2. This can be good, but first takes time for average' or 'typical' targets to be learned and associated with the display read-out because numbers will be different, for example, than a more limited range Racer.

It also means man-made and shaped ferrous targets that can annoy us, and non-ferrous targets, will also be spread across the TID range based upon conductivity and they, too, will have to be learned.

Here are some of the TID numbers I got from commonly found targets using both 2-Tone and 3-Tone models, and moving the samples past the center-axis of the search coil as if laying flat-to-the-coil, and at about a 4" distance.:

US 'V' Nickel, very worn and thin and difficult to see in it's 'slick' appearance .. ±28
US Buffalo Nickel, first specimen in nice condition ............................................ 29-30
US Buffalo Nickel, second specimen in nice condition ...................................... 30-31
US Current Jefferson Nickel, right out of my pocket and brand new ................. 30-31
US Jefferson "War Nickel" with partial silver content ......................................... 32-33

US 1911 Wheat-Back Cent, moderately worn .................................................... 64
US Assorted Wheat-Back and Indian Head Cents to 1957 ............................................ 65-66-67-68-69-71-72-73-75-76-78-79-80

US Clad Dimes ................................................................................................. 79-80
US Silver Roosevelt Dime ............................................................................... 80-81
US 1884 & 1887 Seated Liberty Dimes in EF condition or better ..................... 79-81

US Clad Quarters ......................................................................................... .... 86-87
US 1944 Silver Quarter ........................... ......................................................... 91

US 1877 Seated Liberty Silver half-Dollar ......................................................... 89-90

US Silver Morgan Dollar .................................................................................... 96-97

Small Eagle Military Button (collar or cuff) (1860's-70' era)............................... 24-25
Medium Eagle Military Button, same era as above, ......................................... 45-47

As you can see, even the targets we desire can read at varying numbers based upon alloy content and condition.

Just some thoughts, but I'll end this as it is now daylight and I am headed out with FORS CoRe, Gold+ and Racer 2 to have more fun before spring rains arrive later this afternoon.

Monte

 

[Ringzapper]

In dry sand i could see the racer 2 hitting larger coins at 12 - 18 inches down. ..

 

[Flbchbm]

You are right, Monte. I mispoke. The Fors CoRe has excellent target separation, probably more limited by the user than the machine. I really appreciate your sharing your knowledge and experience with us.

I hope I am not putting you in an awkward spot by asking this question but if you could only have the Fors CoRe or the Racer 2, which would you keep?

 

[Furious T]

Thanks Monte, For a long time now I've been wishing that someone (who knows what they are talking about) would publicly dispel the myth about cones and arrows going into the ground from the detector coils. Years ago I recall reading something written by the late Jack Gifford in Tesoro MDI, dispelling the cone/knife/arrows thing.


Amberjack, with your respect to your comment about detectors with operating frequency over 10 kHz, I can say that my Fisher Gold Bug Pro, which operates at 19 kHz, in All Metal mode, on a saltwater beach in dry-damp sand, goes just as deep, if not deeper, than my Excal II. So I dont think I'm going to worry too much about the Racer 2's depth capabilities as compared to multi frequency units.

 

[amberjack]

FT I have no doubt about the GBP I have a F19 they can go deep in the sand in AM, I probably should have said something like a multi or low freq machine will ID better at depth in the dirt and give better audio on coin sized targets. I am sure this new machine is fine and I haven't used one other than the GR and it sure isn't going to find a 10" coin anywhere I would say.

so like I said before happy to be proven wrong

at some point I will get a R2 or an impact which ever suits my needs better and find out for myself and the moment all we have is a few testers words which are great to tell me about features and then I can make up my own mind and do my own testing no one on this planet can test a detector better than me, and its simple answer why I have to use it not them

so going on best ID and tone response in the dirt on deep coins I have not owned a machine as good as a minelab although saying that pains me know end its been my experience.

AJ

 

[Monte]

You are right, Monte. I mispoke. The Fors CoRe has excellent target separation, probably more limited by the user than the machine. I really appreciate your sharing your knowledge and experience with us.

REPLY:

The Nokta FORS CoRe is definitely an excellent detector for target separation as well as unmasking non-ferrous from ferrous trash.

Its capabilities are rivaled by its relatives, the FORS Gold and FORS Gold+, as well as the Makro Racer, Gold Racer and Racer 2, in order of release and introduction.

Learning any detector, and especially this 'family' of top-quality, excellent-performing detectors, is a great pleasure and enjoyment for me ... as is sharing what I have learned through many years of detecting, and hoping to help others find the enjoyment I have of knowing more about detectors and their operation, there-by gaining more success afield.

I hope I am not putting you in an awkward spot by asking this question but if you could only have the Fors CoRe or the Racer 2, which would you keep?

AN 'ANSWER' THAT IS STILL A 'NON-ANSWER':

It is a challenging spot to be placed in, but I don't find it awkward. I like 'Simple' and will try to give a 'simple; answer. When I evaluate any detector I always consider what it might provide me in features and performance, and if it would be or could be a replacement for any detector in my personal arsenal. Such was the case with the Nokta FORS CoRe when I received it in January of last year. There is only one of my test case scenarios where it struggles, but otherwise it impressed me immediately with appearance, construction quality, ergonomics, balance and comfort. Then I turned it on.

I checked out and tested the difference search modes and features, as well as all the search coils. Then I started running a series of my regular performance evaluations using actual in-the-field scenarios and other. With the comfort and performance I saw and compared using all the other detectors I had, I quickly realized I had a new #1 all-purpose detector in my hand. My MXT Pro fell to the #2 spot in my regular-use arsenal [size=small](for a month)[/size] and, at that time, my answer to your question would have been easy. The Nokta FORS CoRe

I usually hunt in trashier environments, especially full of nails and other iron debris. Some Relic Hunting sites are less strewn, like military and pioneer encampments or short-lived mining camps and the like. I need excellent performance from a detector coupled with a good, 'Functional' set of search coils, most especially a smaller-size coil. The FORS CoRe works wonderful! In February a year ago I got the Makro Racer. Similar search modes and adjustments and the CoRe and the same size small coil. That bumper the White's MXT Pro from my arsenal as it went up for sale.

The Racer was kind of tied for #1, but if you would have asked me anytime during the past year, AND if I had only used the FORS CoRe and Racer and no other Makro or Nokta detector, then my personal pick for a #1 detector out of those two would still have been the FORS CoRe. I do other types of hunt, however, and I have to keep in mind a detector's application for other needs, such as my FORS Gold+ and Makro Gold Racer.

Each of these are designed for, and cater to, the needs of a serious Gold Nugget Hunter, but they are more versatile. Both of these I will use for Gold Nugget Hunting, especially the Gold racer when working areas there tinier-size gold is more likely to be found du to its LF operation, It will also be used for hunting locations with a better-than-average opportunity to have lost gold jewelry to be found. The FORS Gold+, however, is my main-use detector, currently, for a bulk of my Relic Hunting, but will get used for some general-use Gold Nugget site work.

So, with the experiences I am enjoying with these two additional models in my arsenal, it makes it a little harder to pick ... and then along comes the Racer 2 with all of the added features in a more comfortable package. If I ignore the other two models, and even the original Racer, and have to make a pick between my 'original' FORS CoRe and a new Racer 2, then it would be the Racer 2.

Not that my FORS CoRe doesn't work well, but the Racer 2 has the Iron Audio Volume adjustment and that, alone, makes it a better pick for me in the iron littered places you will usually find me.

There ..... now I finally figured it out myself, just to answer your question.

Now, let me ask myself a question: I hope I am not putting myself in an awkward position, but if I really had to pick, would I part with any of my Nokta or Makro Detectors? Oh boy! I like the EASY-to-answer questions .... NO! Not one not any. They are all solid performers, unmatched by the competition, all well balanced, and they do a great job of unmasking good stuff from laying amongst the bad stuff, and I like that.

There, now I feel much better and ought to get out and go detecting since we didn't get the rain they had forecast. Two Notka's and a Makro are loaded on my vehicles' back seat and ready to so, so Rikki & I are out-the-door!

Monte

 

[Flbchbm]

Thank you, sir, for your thought full reply. Excellent, as always.

 

[Keith Southern]

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFBaZa14T3A[/video]

Keith

 

[Keith Southern]

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_ei4SogU1A[/video]

Keith

 

[Keith Southern]

May very well do it Zapper???

Gregg No Alien Tach....Ahem!! LOL!!

Keith

 

[petew]

I've been looking at some videos,and reading about the r2....I was wanting to ask about deep program.
I'm thinking it's not for parks and places that are even a little trashy,is it more for fields and cleaner ground?
And my next question, how slow if a sweep speed is nessesary for deep mode?Can I sweep too slow with the r2 and lose performance or depth?Any insight is helpful,I can't wait to get my machine.thanks.

 

[Beyonder]

"Can I sweep too slow with the r2 and lose performance or depth?"

If you have to ask this question, then I suggest the Racer 2 isnt for you.

 

[petew]

"Can I sweep too slow with the r2 and lose performance or depth?"

If you have to ask this question, then I suggest the Racer 2 isnt for you.

That's not a very good educated guess

 

[iqwozpoom]

And my next question, how slow if a sweep speed is nessesary for deep mode?Can I sweep too slow with the r2 and lose performance or depth?

On the Red Racer you can get a signal at a slow sweep speed so I imagine that you'll be fine. If that doesn't work you can switch to all metal and set the isat to a comfortable setting.

 

[Beyonder]

"Can I sweep too slow with the r2 and lose performance or depth?"

If you have to ask this question, then I suggest the Racer 2 isnt for you.[/quote]

"That's not a very good educated guess"

I don't have to "guess" because I have been detecting long enough to know. Since you dont, then you haven't been.

 

[petew]

"Can I sweep too slow with the r2 and lose performance or depth?"

If you have to ask this question, then I suggest the Racer 2 isnt for you.

"That's not a very good educated guess"

I don't have to "guess" because I have been detecting long enough to know. Since you dont, then you haven't been.[/quote]

OK,I agree,and wasn't being rude.But if your educated enough as you say you are,why not help me by just answering my question.