One Of Biggest Questions Always Asked But With Scarce Answers- Sun Ray S-12 Comparison To 12x10. :thumbup: & Comparison Of It To 10" Tornado & 13" Ult

[Critterhunter]

I did this video a few months or so back but finally got around to editing it with the bad weather to throw up on you tube. This is a basic air depth test on a clad dime I do with all my coils and detectors. Air testing Minelabs is a controversial thing due to the unique way they ignore (and thus need) a ground signal, and many say they get more depth in certain soils or sands than an air test shows.

I agree with that, as I've dug a few coins deeper with certain coils than the air tests have shown with them, despite being able to run them all at this testing site at full blast manual sensitivity due to it being a low EMI environment. On the other hand, non-Minelabs in general tend to air test better than they'll ever do in the ground due to the more "conventional" way they handle a ground signal. Not hard and fast rules in any of this, just in general.

All settings for all coils have been the same- Full blast manual sensitivity due to the low EMI environment with all being stable, except for the Ultimate being just slightly unstable but still well within my tolerance level of how I like to ride a coil to push it to the edge when I have to. Iron Mask ON Disc Mode. OFF shows me about a half inch less depth, and I never turn it OFF because ON seems to give me better ability to pull non-ferrous signals out of iron while still is smooth as silk stable to me. Threshold mode and just high enough to hear. Noise band 2. Zero notch or discrimination. Full volume...

http://youtu.be/tqrGD98HCJ0

This doesn't illustrate how any of these coils may or may not act in the ground with a ground load present that might change their nature for the better or worse. It's just to have a guide marker in terms of "raw" air depth for later comparison against in the field marked targets before digging to contrast to head to head with various coils.

There are certain "visual" aspects of testing that can't be duplicated without seeing what the conditions are in certain respects. I'll also be running the S-12 through the usual mineralized 3 bricks stacked high test over a clad dime. You need to find certain old red bricks for this and test them for the right ones, as they tend to be more mineralized while newer ones seem to have less or none. I will be kicking one brick at a time off as I did in a prior video with other coils until the dime could be heard. This test seems to be a very popular way to judge certain aspects of mineral penetrating abilities, and I'll also be doing the popular nail elevated 1" over a dime test that I've also seen others do and done myself in a video, along with the usual various nail masking conditions in staged tests too.

I like to drink in any and all potential aspects about a coil or machine, and so air testing entails part of that, just like reading as much as I can to kick around various views, theories, or ideas. I follow with interest several You tube channels who run various coils or machines through various air testing obstacle courses, other in ground tests, and also "loaded" box tests of various forms of minerals or soils/sands to try to gain some insight on their potential.

One guy in particular known for this, is doing some heavy testing of the Deeptech Vista units. I'm intrigued by the potential of these machines, at least in contrast to PP mode on my GT to see if I want or need one for certain hunting situations IE: Low non-ferrous trash but heavy amounts of iron with the potential for coins at great depth, due to the lack of discrimination much above iron or a VDI. If they pan out to be more than I think PP mode can do for me, with PP's extreme depth and iron telling ability along with modulated audio, then I might just have to add one of those to my lineup to sit along side my GT. Still way too early to tell for me yet. I have to do some parallel testing to decide.

 

[lovee-1]

Rob..I have dug 19" in dry beach sand and pulled out a thin as hell Sparkler Wire,,and i didn't have a weak signal..That's with my 15" WOT coil...What can beat that.?...Here in Ontario,Canada...

 

[lovee-1]

Critter...Try testing a 15" WOT Coil,,I have dug 19" in dry beach sand and pulled up a thin Sparkler Wire.!!..What beats that,,And i still had strong signal..You've seen the clip on "YouTube"..That dig was 21" with a 15" CoilTek...Why haven't you tried anything CoilTek makes in your tests.!!

 

[Critterhunter]

Yea, I saw the video where the GT and WOT followed behing a flagship silver killer near a tree. The other machine didn't see any target and then the WOT/GT went over that spot and got a strong hit. I watched with jaw dropping as on film they dug and dug, to then find a very deep shot gun shell at about hand to elbow depth or so. No doubt it was that deep due to the careful digging and re-scanning as they went. That was amazing.

Don't know if the WOT would get that kind of depth in my soil due to the mineralization, but it appears (?) they did dig through some limestone clay perhaps, which I have the same deal at many of my mineralized sites. I still think though that perhaps in my soil a coil 14.25" in actual size might be beyond the size to see depth gains on coin/ring sized targets.

Just the same though, sooner or later I want to test out the WOT in my soil, and see if it does show gains in depth over the stock 10" coil where as the 15x12 did in my soil but did in my sand. I'm guessing max round coil size to see gains in coin/ring stuff in my soil might be 12 or 13", but perhaps it's 14" in coil size? I just know the 15" of the 15x12 was beyond productive to gain those depths. On bigger stuff though, yea...a bigger coil will get deeper than stock for sure.

If I'm loaned a WOT for testing and head to heads in the field against my 12x10 and other coils I'll do that, but if I don't then I'll buy one used down the road to play with and see. I also might have a line on a 6" Excelerator (not interested in the 5" one) to test out in comparison to the S-5 I owned and also my new 7.25" Tornado, which might arrive in the mail today or tomorrow by the way. Very excited to give that coil a spin in heavy trash and say around fences and poles and see what it can do, and will also be doing the usual youtube staged testing of it in comparison to other coils.

Beyond the WOT and the 6" Excelerator, I can't think of any other coils I'd be interesting in playing with or buying. Perhaps an 8x6 if it's true they make BBS versions in the UK. Still mixed messages on that. One guy PMed me and says he's owned one for the BBS units, so I guess they do/did make them for it, or maybe somebody is cranking out clones or something?

I'm planning to make a super sniper coil here sooner or later. I'd like to build a 4x2, being 4" long by 2" wide. I think a DD in that size and shape might be outstanding in unmasking in areas that are say one big iron signal, or for say getting right up against fences, poles, and metal objects. In areas of history, more modern fences installed in say the last 40 years, could be masking some very nice silver right up against them. Using a coil to do that, like maybe my 8" Tornado will (?), could pay off big time.

I have a few schematics for both the old pre-amp in the Sovereign/Excalibur coils, and the newer version they went to later. Way I understand it the old design used a different IC for the amping, where as the newer one uses a different style. On another website, one guy said in his comparisons of both he saw no difference in performance of these circuits in building coils. However, I did read of one guy who said that the old style didn't give as good of performance as the new style. No point of using the old style anyway since the more newer IC is readily available at electronic supply houses. It's not a Minelab exclusive as it's used in other applications as well.

You can buy coil casings for various style coils you want to build with spokes and all in design to house your TX/RX windings. Since a little 4x2 coil is very small, even if the made a coil casing for that size (I doubt it) there wouldn't be much point in buying one to save weight when building it. For that reason, I plan to use make a mold of 4x2 dimensions, wind my RX/TX and install the pre-amp, and then once it's tuned to specifications the Sovereign wants to see to match all other coils I plan to just fill the mold with epoxy to make a solid coil.

Won't be much weight to it being so small even as solid, so I don't need to go to a spoke casing. Then I plan to cover the epoxy with spray on bed liner for that factory look and finish. Coils encased in epoxy (like the 12x10 or 10" Tornado and most others), keep the windings from moving out of alignment, and also prevent water from making it to the vitals even if there is a breach in the plastic coil casing.

With further reading into DD design, which I want for max left/right separation, if it's possible to build a coil of this little size, then I might even fudge the length below 4". Even at 4" that will beat just about any coil on the market in length wise separation, but just the same the coil is going to be meant for extreme separation/unmasking, and in no way meant for any kind of coverage.

 

[Critterhunter]

I haven't used this coil much lately due to coming to various conclusions that I preferred my SEF 12x10 for land hunting in various respects, but today, due to that coil short I need to fix right behind the plug on my 12x10, I decided to break out the S-12 again, as the area I was hunting was calling for coverage, and no doubt this 12.5" coil fit the criteria in that respect over my little 7.25" Tornado or the stock 10" Tornado that came with my GT.

The 12x10 is a nice step up in coverage over the stock 10" coil, but just the same the round 12.5" shape of the S-12, like I felt with the 13" Ultimate loaner I had, makes gridding just a tad faster without having to hold back my steps as much.

Anyway, first, a short refresher of IMO impressions of the S-12 to my 12x10...I dug several wheats today that confirmed what I felt before *in my somewhat to even higher mineralized soils*, in that it took much more effort and wiggle work for me to bring up the proper target ID and tone on a target than it does with my 12x10 at depth.

I dug several wheats today in the 6 to 7" range that required more force, or wiggle work, to achieve proper ID on. Not impossibly hard, just not as effortless as the same coins at this same site do with my 12x10. 6 or 7" on a wheat might be cake work for a Minelab in other people's soils, but in mine they aren't always an easy walk in the park, so to speak, for both the FBS units I owned and the current BBS Sovereign GT I use, and these depths were even more so harder to achieve with other detectors I've owned over the years.

I'll only say this, that the stock 10" Tornado seems to nab wheats at that depth without a sweat, and the 12x10 does even more so. Yes, I've dug much deeper coins that hit perfect and easy with various coils on the GT, but I'm talking *in general* here in perspective of things in various coil selections as to how easy these somewhat shallower depths on wheats are for me *in my soil*.

Second, I was hunting in pin point mode and then flipping back to disc to double check what I suspected was or was not going to be iron to dig, and oddly I found that PP mode had some very "iron like" qualities to certain non-ferrous targets, to where I was surprised that they didn't null as iron when I flipped back to disc. Somewhat one way signals or ones more fuzzy than I'm used to.

Another thing that was odd to me, is that when I went to PP a target to dig that I confirmed in disc was not iron first, I found that based on the coil position the target would sometimes move, be more "fuzzy" than I expected, or only sound off one way on me in PP. These are traits I'm used to PP telling me is iron, but maybe all these things are just me not being as used to this coil, but with the 12x10 in PP mode while hunting I seem to get a more "high resolution" aspect on targets, but as said that could just be me not being as experienced with this coil's traits.

I will add on a very positive note that the S-12 was able to run at full blast manual sensitivity at this site without nulling or chatter, just like the 12x10 was able to do there.

And in closing, wanted to show off a little bling I got for the day that read VDI # 164 on my meter and gave a real quality sound from any direction I swept over it at about 5 to 6" deep if I remember right (great excitement kind'a blurred the moment). No masking trash anywhere around it, so that wasn't going to be an obstacle to the find...
[attachment 262073 My2ndMasonRing.jpg]

14K gold man's Masonic ring. My digital scale doesn't do penny weights, but in grams it shows 5 of those, or 2/10ths of an ounce when I put it in that mode as well. By ARA prices of paying 98% of the day's stock market price for gold, I suspect about $150 in gold weight perhaps, give or take $20 or so based on the actual higher penny rate resolution.

A friend, when I was not around a computer, did some searching and found exact or in some cases very similar "used" Masonic rings with an asking price of in the $250 to $390 asking range if I remember right.

It has a Latin phrase stamped inside, with I think a "B" Hallmark, along with an inscribed man's name and a month, day, and 52 for the year. I plan to try to see if I can find if he or his wife is still alive, and if I can track one of them down then the ring goes to the rightful owner.

Stupid karma thing. Don't want to jinx how life seems to be going for me these days. Ashamed to say it but wish it didn't have a name in it so I wouldn't have to worry about that. If they are both passed on then, depending on how I sort this dilemma out in my head and any sons or daughters they might have that I can find, I'll probably try to locate one of them and return it to any sons or daughters. Concepts of karma are both a blessing and a curse...

 

[Hotcz70]

That is a sweet ring my friend. Congrats.

 

[Critterhunter]

Took out the S-12 again two days ago, since I've been lazy and still haven't soldered up and fixed the wire short in my 12x10 near the plug. Good thing in some respects anyway, as it's insuring I put the S-12 through more paces before returning it to the owner who so graciously offered to loan it to me for comparisons to other coils.

So I did manage 4 silvers with it, and the coverage was great. While the 12x10 is a nice step up in coverage over the stock 10" Tornado, the S-12 and especially the 13" Ultimate give the ability to cover ground just a little more fast without having to hold my steps back as much.

The weight of the S-12, while very close to the 12x10, feels much heavier to me. After about a 9 hour hunt, the more aft mounting point of the S-12 on the shaft makes it feel much more weighty to me after a long hunt swinging it around. Not uncomfortable in any respect, just that it doesn't feel as effortless to swing as the 12x10 or the 13" Ultimate.

Once again, like the other day, I found that *in my ground* coins in the 6 or 7" range take much more effort usually to wiggle up the proper ID and tone on. Feel like I'm fighting it to get it to climb to the target's true nature, requiring much more brisk wiggle work to bring it up in that tone and ID. I dug 4 silvers, which I'll detail with pics in a few days here when I can upload them from my camera, but one of which was a merc at only just over 5" deep, and yet it fought me to reveal it's self, with absolutely no trash or iron around it.

No, wasn't on edge I don't think, as on edge coins usually reveal themselves to me with a very distinct up/down or high/low warble at some angles as I work my way around them. I was kind'a upset with the fact that a silver dime at only this depth wasn't a piece of cake to ID. Could be that I'm out of "rhythm" with the proper strumming of the DD line on the S-12 to work a target with the Sovereign wiggle, but I suspect that what it is is that in my mineralized soils it's just too big for a round conventional DD coil, and so is soaking in too much ground stew, washing away target traits a bit with the ground matrix.

I also found that I dug at least 5 or 6 nails that completely fooled me to being coins, and I mean giving me perfect coin hits from any angle that I didn't even have the smallest suspicion were not going to turn out to be coins, based on their perfect ID and tone. Never have I had that problem with the 12x10. Sure, once in a while or here and there, but usually not 6 or so of them in one day. Again, could be I'm missing some traits this coil is trying to relay that I'm not up to speed on yet.

Another thing that I noticed, is that a few of the silvers I dug, in say the 6 or 7" range, acted to me like wheats more so than silvers, in that they seemed to linger in the 178 or 179 range, and only briefly hit 180 here and there. Again, this can happen with any coil, but just the same these were not deep or masked coins, to where I'd expect such things from a silver. I dug them fully expecting a wheat, and yet was nicely surprised to see silver in the hole. And yea, I can't always tell what I suspect is silver or a wheat with any coil, based on it's meter traits or slightly sweeter tone, but just the same I did expect these to be wheats at those shallower depths, where a silver usually won't be lazy in it's climb to 180 and such.

On more positive notes, the S-12 did net me 4 silvers for the day and about 12 wheats, and was stable at full blast manual sensitivity like the 12x10 is there, but this is a very low EMI environment with not too rough of mineralized soil, to where I'd fully expect any coil to be able to run at full blast manual. Not all coils can, so that alone tells me the S-12 is one quality made coil. I do like this coil for certain situations. I'm thinking it may replace my 10" Tornado as my low drag water coil when I want more coverage, but I have a suspicion that *in my soil or sands* the 10" Tornado is going to be deeper, due to the limitations of coil size in a round coil in sucking up too much ground signal.

The 13" Ultimate? It seems oddly not "conventional" for a round DD, and maybe for that reason I've found the loaner I had was seeming to hold it's own depth wise against the 12x10. Maybe not as deep (don't know yet), but based on comparisons on marked undug targets with both coils, the Ultimate seems very close in depth abilities. It doesn't seem like a typical round DD in it's layout and design, and so the field it generates seems rather sharp to me in some respects, much like the SEF 12x10.

The 15x12? Again, due to it's size, it seems beyond the point of no return to gain depths on coin/ring sized targets in my soil. The 10" Tornado for me was deeper, so I sold off the 15x12 and got a 12x10, because depth was more important to me than max coverage at the time. Now I want a max coverage coil for large areas to grid faster, and being that the 15x12 would be too much like replicating my 12x10, that's why I want to replace the loaner 13" Ultimate I had with one on of my own, which should be on the way shortly by the way, as a friend secured a brand new one for me.

 

[Critterhunter]

A war nickle, buffalo, 1 rosie, and 2 mercs. Any time I can walk away after a long 7 to 9 hour hunt and end up with a few silvers in my pouch or some other old coins I consider a successful day, so it was good to find these with the S-12 even though I much prefer my 12x10 in my soil and for other particular reasons in contrast to me...
[attachment 262511 IMG_2156.jpg][attachment 262512 IMG_2157.jpg]

 

[Critterhunter]

And it's confirmed in cement for me that I much prefer the 12x10 *in my soil*. I did manage about 7 or 8 wheaties roughly (last count I took I was at 6 for the day thus far), but only 1 merc in that long hunt of a day.

First, the S-12 had me chasing false coin spikes from nails. Sure, have that happen on occasion with the 12x10 but usually I know what they are due to their traits and still go ahead and dig them just in case. With the S-12 I was completely fooled on several occasions and was positive I had a deep coin under the coil, which gave me perfect hits and no ghostly traits from any angle.

After digging 8 or 9" and still not finding the target even with my Pro Pointer super tuned, I'd then start to concentrate on the side of the hole and would find a nail about 3 to 4" off to the side of my plug. Really had me frustrated after chasing a target for a good 10 minutes it seemed like on several occasions.

Second, I've been hunting in PP mode with the S-12 on land as I have been with my 12x10 as of late, where as I had only mainly used it on the beach last summer getting used to it's abilities and language. Typically I can almost always tell iron in PP even before flipping to disc to check, and here's the thing...

I'd find a deep target (say 7" or deeper) in PP that I knew wasn't iron based on it's response, yet when I flipped to disc and wiggled right over that spot I'd get a null or no response at all. I had passed on several of these even though PP was telling me this ain't iron. So finally I started more intensely checking these deeper targets when flipping back to disc by wiggling around them a good bit, and was finding to my surprise a coin response only when I moved about 3 to 4" off to the right side of where PP said the target was.

You might think "that's iron". Well, I know some like to check out a deep suspected coin spike from iron by flipping to PP and seeing if it moves off to the side, but remember I was using PP mode first here and not as a confirmation of iron, so when PP told me "this isn't iron" and I flipped to disc and got a null or no response right over it, and then when I moved off to the side a good bit and finally got a coin hit (from any angle by the way), I started digging these anyway to see how I was getting fooled into thinking it was NOT iron based on PP's telling me it was not by the audio response.

And it turns out, that I started popping deep wheats in about the 7 to 8.5" range that for some odd reason were not sounding off in disc unless I moved the coil off to the side and wiggled. And, to make it even more of an impact on things to me, I'd go ahead and dig those targets based on where PP said it was and not where disc was sounding off.

Dug too many of these over the last two hunts for them to all be coins on edge that you might expect disc to see only off to the side, and none of them gave me the classic up/down or high/low warble that many coins on edge will give me. And no, there wasn't any iron in the hole or anywhere near these targets. I'd re-check the plug and sides of it in PP mode after recovering the coin and not a peep of anything that might have dragged PP off to the side.

This seems odd to me, and if anybody likes to use PP moving a target to sort out coin spikes from iron, they might have issues with not being able to rely on that anymore. I don't rely on that in the first place, as I always fear a nearby piece of iron or other junk fooling me by dragging me off to the side and having me suspect the coin hit was an iron false.

Rather, I go by the audio traits of a target and it's VDI pattern to some extent, to figure out if I think I've got an iron hit. Had I been using PP offsetting the target from where disc said it was, I would have easily passed these coins as being false coin spikes from iron, and the only reason why I did dig them is because I *knew* there traits in PP wasn't telling me it was iron, and also because when I moved to the side to get the disc response it's audio and VDI response was also telling me it wasn't going to be iron.

In terms of audio for judging iron in disc, many aspects are hard to relate and must be learned, but a few that I do go by is how ghostly the hit is, if it moves on me with it's coin response as I circle around it, or how it chatters in and out of "speaking coin" to me. For the VDI, if the hit is all over the place with no rhyme or reason as it climbs to 180 then I suspect iron, where as a coin at fringe depth or even masked tends to have a more "steady" climb to 180. Sure, it may bounce around a bit, but it won't do it as randomly as I wiggle as iron usually does.

And this brings me to the next thing that bothered me. I hit upon about 3 deep coin hits that acted just like iron to me in how washed out their coin response was. IE: Meaning, they were hitting "coin" from a wide area and not concentrated to one tight spot in my wiggle, and also in PP mode seemed rather broad in response as well like just a concentrated patch of iron through the soil with a broad coin spike.

But, having my suspicions based on not knowing what to expect, I went ahead and dug those and they turned out to be wheats in the 8 to 8.5" range. Impressive depth for any machine or coil in my soil, but I can say the 12x10 seems to always easily nail these as coins, and in a far more "tight" response area, to where I knew they weren't false hits from a patch of washed out iron, but in this case these coins hit exactly like that.

And in closing, hunting in PP mode....I'm finding the "resolution" of PP mode on the S-12 isn't as sharp to me to trace out targets or to get an idea of their size or shape in some respects. Many of my non-ferrous targets PP is giving a somewhat "fuzzy" response to, where as I've learned that as one of the traits to iron on the GT in PP mode with other coils. I'd flip back to disc suspecting iron with the S-12, and was shocked to hear a good non-ferrous response to it.

So, in closing, got extra motivation now to fix my cable short in my 12x10 and not be lazy about it and put it off. I've seen enough. At least in my soil, and at least in the particular aspects of detecting traits I want in a coil, I much prefer the 12x10. And oddly, the other day when using the 8" Tornado at this same site, it was much more easy to work up a coin hit at depth with it than it is for me with the S-12.

I know the S-12 is a quality coil and works wonders for many in their soils or sands, but I suspect in my soils the S-12 is just too big of a round DD at 12.5" in size to see gains in depth, soaking up too much ground stew. The 15x12 got less depth than the stock 10" Tornado for me in my soil on coin/ring sized targets, and though the 13" Ultimate (12.5" long by 13" wide) seems to improve depth over stock for me in my soils.

I don't think it's a conventional round DD coil in it's design, as it looks and acts very different, and so I would guess is riding on and soaking up less ground stew than say a 12 or 13" coil, because it's DD line seems rather sharp like that of the 12x10 for one thing. I now believe that the max *round* DD coil in size for my soil is about 12" max to still see gains in depth on coin/ring sized targets, with the exception of the 13" Ultimate, but even so I'm still not sure the Ultimate is as deep as the 12x10 for me, but in head to heads on marked undug targets I think it's very close, but for sure the 12x10 is much easier to work in trash.

PS- Final thought- I much prefer the sharper more treble like response of the 12x10 and the Ultimate for my hearing tastes to judge targets by. Some may prefer the more broad base like response the S-12 gives. All based on your tastes and hearing, but I believe the sharper treble like "crisp" response of the 12x10 is due to it's razor sharp DD line, like strumming a guitar with a pic versus your finger.

You'd also swear the processor has been sped up on the Sovereign when using the 12x10, and to some extent the Ultimate gives me this feel as well, because it too seems to have a pretty sharp DD line, although for sure it's more broad width will sound off to targets in a wider span of trash unless you position yourself to isolate two targets with it's DD line alone and split them apart to slice and dice.

Remember- These are only my opinions for *my soil and sands* with coils. You may find very different results in yours, or in your particular hunting styles and methods, as to which coils you prefer. The S-12 is a quality built coil. Not saying otherwise, and there is good reason why many love it's legendary abilities, and also seems to be the coil of choice for water hunters on their Excaliburs in terms of aftermarket coils. Part of that I'm sure is due to it's round shape, where as the SEFs are squarish in shape and probably drag a good bit more in the water for people. I know I have used my 15x12 and 12x10 in the water, and much prefer the 10" Tornado for my water rig because the swing is a bit more effortless.

But, based on my experiences for me and me only in my particular minerals, I feel the 10" Tornado is staying on my water rig where I had thought I might replace it with an S-12. The Tornado is easier to wiggle up targets for me at depth for one. Again, probably my minerals, because it appears that even the 7.25" eight inch Tornado is having an easier time wiggling up a tone and ID at depth than the S-12 is for me, along with various other traits I prefer the Tornados for.

And on land, the 12x10 for me trumps all other coils for what I want when old coin hunting, but I do have situations where I'll force myself to take it off and use the 8" Tornado or the 13" Ultimate. Those kinds of situations are speciality ones. IE: Meaning, using the 8" Tornado is super heavy trash without the need to re-grid as much from various angles, and also using the Ultimate for wide open expanses of ground or sand where I'd prefer a bit faster gridding without as much need to hold my steps back.

Even though the 12x10 improves grid speed in this respect for huge wide open areas, and even though it's razor sharp DD line will unmasking coins from junk to the right or left of it, both the 8" Tornado and Ultimate have a place in my arsenal for certain situations. Right tool for the right job...