One Of Biggest Questions Always Asked But With Scarce Answers- Sun Ray S-12 Comparison To 12x10. :thumbup: & Comparison Of It To 10" Tornado & 13" Ult

[Critterhunter]

After sending the 13" Ultimate I was testing back to it's owner, I was once again graciously offered to test another coil not in my arsenal. This time the legendary Sun Ray S-12 coil. I've had many Emails and PMs over time from people asking me of opinions of the S-12 to the 12x10, and have seen the same question pop up in this forum often.

However, nobody really had much to say, as it appears not too many people own both coils to compare head to head. There have been a few who have owned both chime in, but every time I've seen opinions given it was rather sparse in content without much to go on.

So no better solution to that problem then by me over-killing you with comparison contrasts on the two coils. They say an ounce of cure is worth a pound of prevention. I always shoot for a pound of cure to make sure there is no doubt left. Never do a job with a hammer that you can do use a sledge hammer. So let's get busy...

First, let's start with pictures. Note that the Sun Ray S-12 is 12.5" in actual size, while the 12x10 is exactly the size of it's name, and that the 10" Tornado is as well. The 13" Ultimate's actual size is 13" wide but truly only 12 & 1/2" in total length at it's longest axis point.

Also note how the Tornado and S-12 don't appear to have their mounting holes directly center of the coil, where as it is for the 12x10, and was for the 13" Ultimate as well. Just as important as weight, balance of a coil on a shaft by mounting it dead center IMO is important to the feel of the coil after a long day's hunt, but then again when we are talking coils as light as these center mounting isn't as much of an issue probably.

10" Tornado, S-12, & 12x10
[attachment 248597 TornadoS-1212x10.jpg]
S-12 Over 10" Tornado
[attachment 248598 S-12OverTornado.jpg]
10" Tornado Over S-12
[attachment 248599 TornadoOverS-12.jpg]
S-12 Over 12x10
[attachment 248600 S-12Over12x10.jpg]
12x10 Over S-12

 

[Critterhunter]

While the Ultimate is gone, I will at least be able to contrast the S-12 to it via some more Youtube videos on depths in air tests and such (comparing them to the already existing videos where the Ultimate was ran thru it's paces), along with other ways.

But primarily future tests and comparisons of the S-12 are going to be against my 10" Tornado and 12x10 in both air tests, head to head on marked targets before digging, and so on, since of course I have all 3 of these coils present to put head to head in the field, on video, etc..

I've had many people shoot me Emails or PMs in the past asking how the S-12 compared to both the stock 10" Tornado and in particular to the 12x10. Having not owned an S-12, there wasn't much that I could tell them, other than that thus far of all the machines and coils I've owned over the years, the 12x10 was the best all around coil I've ever used IMO.

The 13" Ultimate though, held it's own against the 12x10 in in-field depth tests on undug targets, and appears to have very good separation for a coil of it's size, so in the future I plan to add an Ultimate to my line up to continue comparisons of it to the 12x10 and see if either had any kind of edge in depth and such.

The more "effortless" coverage of the Ultimate alone for gridding out large areas, along with it's great feel on the shaft (although it weighs the same as the 12x10), makes me want one of them to be able to use on days I'm in the mood for it. The 12x10 and Ultimate are two very different coils in many ways, so although I didn't see it (yet) I'm sure there are strengths to the Ultimate the 12x10 doesn't have, and of course vise versa, just based on the very different physical design of both coils.

This coil's actual size is 12.5", and has a legendary and well deserved reputation among Sovereign and Excalibur owners, having been around for far longer than the SEF coils. When you hear the name Sun Ray you think of quality products and a rich history in the Minelab community, so I have no doubt this is one great coil. It appears to be the aftermarket coil of choice for Excal or Sovereign water hunters, and I would guess it's round design creates less drag in the water than the squarish shape of the SEF coils is one of the reasons for that. I found the 12x10, and of course the 15x12 when I owned one, are too much drag for my tastes in the water.

For that reason I delegate the 10" Tornado to my water shaft (stock shaft), but if the S-12 shows me great things over the 10" Tornado then sooner or later I'll get an S-12 and make it my water coil. If I do that, then the 10" Tornado might go up for sale, as it will no longer have a use in my line up of coils, because on land the 12x10 is my go to coil, and the Ultimate will also be coming into my line up for days I'm in the mood for a different coil on land, or for sure when I want to cover a large area even easier than the 12x10's nice improvement in that respect over the stock 10" Tornado. Once I replace my S-5 with a 8" Tornado (actual size is 7 & 1/4") as my land trash coil (I hear great things about it's separation and depth in super heavy trash), then my line up of coils will be complete.

So let's start off with the simple stuff first- Weight Comparisons. Next post will be on that subject...

 

[Critterhunter]

In the Coil Sticky thread near the bottom of the first page is a thread link to a coil weight chart, where we all got together and weighed various coils we owned for both the BBS and FBS units. As a side note, soon I'll be updating that picture chart in that thread with all the additional coil weights posted by people in that thread over time to make things easier to reference via one picture chart.

But until I get to that, below I've listed some coil weights of coils in the size class of the S-12 for comparison. These weights are ones by actual users, as we all know manufacturing specs can be somewhat "off" what the reality is. When I compiled the initial chart however, there was some confusion as to if the S-12 was weighed with or without a coil cover and I had noted that in the chart. I now know the reality of it's weight with and without a coil cover, because I weighed it myself on a quality scale, and also included the coil cable on the scale as everybody else did for their coils. Turns out the weight listed in the coil weight chart was with the coil cover on, because 22.7 the person reported that I posted in the chart, was exactly what I got for the S-12 with the coil cover still on on a quality digital scale.

One of the stellar things about the S-12's reputation, is that it is a very light coil, so we can finally put to rest any debate as to if it's lighter than the 12x10. Remember this- The FBS versions of the SEF coils appear to be a good bit heavier than the BBS versions, as is noted in the coil picture chart previously. The below coil weights are the BBS versions, except for of course the Pro Coil, which they don't make for the Sovereign or Excalibur. However, the Pro Coil has a reputation as being a fantasticly light coil, so I'm listing it below as a rule of thumb reference in comparison to the others. All weights are in ounces. Remember, there are 16 ounces in a pound. If the actual size of the coil differs from it's name then I make note of that...

11" FBS Pro Coil with coil cover................................19.75
12x10 without coil cover.............................................20
13" (12 & 1/2 x 13" wide) Ultimate without coil cover 20.2
Sun Ray S-12 (12.5") without coil cover.....................20.5
13" Ultimate with coil cover.........................................22.2
Sun Ray S-12 with coil cover......................................22.7
12x10 with coil cover..................................................22.8
10" Tornado without coil cover...................................23.1
15x12 without coil cover.............................................25
10" Tornado with coil cover........................................25.6
Old BBS 10" Coil with no coil cover...........................27.55
15x12 with coil cover.................................................28.7
WOT Coil (14.25") without coil cover.........................29.2
WOT Coil (List weight. With Cover?).........................32

As you can see, the 12x10 with coil cover is pretty much a dead match in weight to the S-12 with coil cover, but without a coil cover the 12x10 is a full half ounce lighter than the S-12 without a coil cover. These weights should finally put to rest the debate as to which coil is king of the hill in terms of weight, but regardless when we are talking weights these low, the Ultimate, 12x10, and S-12 are all VERY light coils. Look how close they come to the Pro Coil. Almost not worth mentioning weight wise!

I would suspect the Excelerator 14, 16, and 18" coils would be among the high end in weights along the lines of the WOT coil if not heavier, but far as I know nobody has ever weighed those. I think I posted some weights in the coil chart that I ran across that somebody weighed for those coils, but don't know if they the FBS or BBS versions, and I don't know if they were with the coil cable and coil cover on or off the scale.

Note: I deducted .2 (point 2) ounces from the weight of the 12x10 with and without coil cover, because it already had 4 or 5 coats of spray on bed liner on it to eliminate need of a coil cover. How did I arrive at that number? If you look in the coil weight chart thread I had weighed the 10" Tornado before and after applying the same amount of coats of spray on bed liner to it's bottom and sides like I did the 12x10, and found the Tornado picked up .2 ounces in weight because of that.

You might think that an few ounces saved by ditching a coil cover and using spray on bed liner is not really important, but I can tell you that even a couple ounces saved at the end of the shaft will make a big difference by the end of a long day's hunt. Not to mention it's so less hassle not having to clean under coil covers, and if you don't clean under them it CAN cause performance and stability issues.

Incidently, I already noted it but I'm going to mention it again real quick. If you notice in the pictures, the SEFs have the coil mount hole directly in the center of them, where as it appears the 10" Tornado and the S-12 have them more towards the back of the coil? Balance on a shaft can have as much to do with how good a coil feels on the shaft.

The Ultimate has it's shaft mounting hole dead center, like the 12x10, and though the 12x10 and Ultimate are dead matches in weight (just about), and although the 12x10 feels great on the end of the shaft, for some odd reason the Ultimate feels even better and lighter. I suspect it has something to do with the round shape of the Ultimate, equally balancing/distrubuting the weight of the coil all the way around the shaft.

 

[Critterhunter]

I don't have the Ultimate handy anymore to post pics of it overlaid with the S-12, so here's a few more to help you out perspective wise that you can then compare to the S-12 ones I posted earlier overlaid with other coils...

Utlimate, 12x10, and 10" Tornado...
[attachment 248606 ultimate12x10andtornado.jpg]
10" Tornado/12x10 pics...
[attachment 248607 12x10overTornado.jpg]
[attachment 248608 TornadoOver12x10.jpg]
Ultimate/12x10 pics...
[attachment 248609 12x10overultimate.jpg]
[attachment 248610 ultimateover12x10.jpg]
10" Tornado/Ultimate pic...
[attachment 248612 tornadooverultimate.jpg]

 

[rl48off]

Critter

If I have two coil say the 10x12 ...and the 13" ultimate Where I find the setting on the beach to be 12 oclock on the 10x12 OK

and now I know that the 13" ultimate is stable at 2 oclock both now at their stable setting .....does that mean being the 10x12 will go deeper because the setting is highter ???? Does that make sense to you do you understand what I'm saying

Ron L

 

[Critterhunter]

Yes, I found the Ultimate often could not ride sensitivity as high as the 12x10 both due to EMI (coil held still) and due to nulling out or chatter on minerals (while moving the coil) in some instances. I could ride full sensitivity with the Ultimate in some good soil with low EMI. Otherwise the Ultimate for me is a very stable coil, just not as stable as the 12x10, but then again the SEFs have a reputation as being rock solid in stability and less prone to EMI or minerals than other coils, so in no way is that a slight towards the Ultimate. It's still a very stable coil for me in my low to higher mineralized soil and sand sites.

Whether running it at needed lower sensitivity levels means less depth I don't know. Only in an air test with a ruler in the foreground of the camera for percise measurement could I see the Ultimate got about a half inch less depth than the 12x10 even with both at full sensitivity in manual, but in the ground it could be a different story. I never marked a deep target with one that the other couldn't see just as well. And the fact that the Ultimate often wants a bit lower sensitivity setting doesn't automatically mean it gets less depth. Could be it's more in tune with it's design at a lower setting and will still achieve the same depth as the 12x10. The Ultimate is a bit louder at depth so that could mean it is hitter harder perhaps but I saw no difference (yet) in depth between them. Then again I didn't mark any fringe depth targets that I felt was at the outer limits of reach for one coil, as that's the only way to perhaps see a distinction between them depth wise.

 

[Critterhunter]

It's still very early on in my in field test runs of the S-12 Intruder, but I can offer a few very early and initial impressions. These may very well change with further use so keep that in mind...

Stability & Ability To Turn Up Sensitivity-[/b] I took the S-12 to a spot I've recently been popping deep wheats with the 12x10, and also the silver ring and 39 merc I recently posted about (got with the 12x10). The soil here doesn't seem highly mineralized and it's a low EMI environment, which means every time I've hunted there with the 12x10 I could run at full blast manual with no chatter or instability. I found the S-12 also was able to run at full manual at this site, which speaks well towards it's stability and design. Despite how low the minerals and EMI may be, a coil can't always achieve full manual as a matter of certainty. I found the S-12 to be very stable and smooth, much like the 12x10 and Ultimate.

Audio Response- Thus far my impressions of the audio of the S-12 are this- It's got a more broad and less sharp/crisp response than the 12x10 or Ultimate. Not necessarily a knock on the S-12. Some might prefer the more broad response of this coil over the more sharp/crisp voice of the 12x10 and Ultimate. I'd say the S-12 is more close in audio to that of the 10" Tornado, although I'd have to say I think the Tornado is a bit sharper as well, just not as crisp/sharp as the 12x10/Ultimate coils. I have read that some prefer the audio of the 8" Coinsearch due to it having a more broad response so once again different strokes for different strokes. Some might prefer the S-12's audio over the other coils, while I'd have to say I fall into the other camp if I had to make a choice.

I think the super crisp/sharp audio of the 12x10 and somewhat of the Ultimate is due to a very sharp DD line that perhaps is like strumming a target with a guitar pick (the DD line) versus your thumb. That's the only way I can think of why the 12x10 seems to have a very crisp response, although of course with still the long nice detailed audio of the Sovereign. If I didn't say it yet (rushing here to post this and get off the computer) the Ultimate is sharp in it's response to, but if I had to lay money on it I think the 12x10 is a bit sharper than the Ultimate in response, but that distinction is so close that it might be wrong between them.

Working A Deeper Target's Tone/ID up to achieve best response- The S-12 seems to require me to use a little more wider Sovereign wiggle or short sweeping when trying to work up the ID and tone of a deep target and also a little more effort to work it up to it's peak and proper ID/tone. Now, that extra seeming effort might just be because I'm out of rhythm with the more broad response of the S-12 and so am not timing the width of my wiggles or short sweeps as well practiced as I am with the 12x10. Might be I need to widen my wiggles or short sweeps a bit when working the target ID/tone up on a deeper target and the S-12 would be just as effortless at it as the 12x10/Ultimate are for me.

How Loud Is It's Voice? I did notice one other thing thus far about the S-12...It's audio response is not nearly as loud as the 12x10 or Ultimate. I've dug several coins with the S-12 that sounded like they were going to be perhaps 6 or 7" deep that only turned out to be 3 or 4" deep or so. In fact, I even dug a deep plug and was searching for what I expected to be a 6 or 7" wheat at the bottom of the hole with my Pro Pointer and, when I couldn't get a signal, I ended up checking the plug I set to the side and found a copper memorial penny at only about 3 to 4" deep in the plug.

But, all that said, less volume doesn't mean anything in terms of depth. Keep in mind I keep the volume all the way down on my GT due to a lack of volume controls or a limiter circuit in my headphones. The S-12 just has a softer more mellow response to me, but remember you've still got full volume to blast to and I'm sure volume level at depth is not going to be an issue. The 12x10 is louder for me than the stock 10" Tornado at depth, and the Ultimate is even a bit louder than the 12x10 still yet.

I did, however, raise the volume to full blast on the S-12 to see how things sounded then, and I must say that coins right under the surface were not quite as loud as I'm used to them blasting me at with the Ultimate or 12x10 when I crank volume to full and hit a near surface coin.

But again, this is not a knock of the S-12. It's volume is still plenty loud enough to hear deep stuff for me even with the volume all the way down. Just a bit more softer/mellower IMO. Some, again, may prefer a more mellow/less treble-like response. All depends on your particular hearing and tastes, so no judgement calls here from me as to which is better for you.

Keepers so far with it? As far as any keepers thus far dug with the S-12 in my limited exposure "in field" with it this far, this particular site I took it to I always seem to walk away with some wheats from with my 12x10 at depth. I did not hunt long there with the S-12 so in no way is that a statement as to it's abilities. It's taken me as long or longer on a hunt to start putting a few wheaties in my pouch with the 12x10 at this site. I did not give the S-12 nearly enough time to show me what it can do there, and also keep in mind I'm still learning the traits of this coil.

Separation/Unmasking? I did find one keeper thus far with the S-12 and it was impressive to me in what it was able to do for a round coil of it's 12.5" size. I got a 176 signal that by now I knew by the loudness to scale/judge depth of the S-12 on a target was probably going to be about 6" deep (with volume all the way down on the GT). It gave me 176 from one angle and at 90 degrees was giving me a rock solid 178, so I was suspecting a wheat here perhaps. I dug down and at about 6" I popped a pendant of some kind, roughly the size of a nickel, and when I re-checked the hole about 2 or so inches to the side of where the pendant was I found a rather fat rusty old nail.

I never got a null from that nail when working the ID/Tone of the pendant from two 90 degree angles with the S-12, so I think that speaks well of it's ability to separate and unmask for a coil of it's 12.5" round size. These targets you can see in these two pics below, and I spaced the nail roughly the distance I found it from the pendant. If anybody knows what this pendant is please let me know...
[attachment 251032 IMG_2086.jpg][attachment 251033 IMG_2090.jpg]
Pin Pointing? I'd also like to add in closing so far that the S-12 pin points great with the center of the coil in both discriminate or in PP mode, just like the 12x10 and Ultimate.

Final thought for now...Weight...I hunt with my 12x10 without a coil cover as I use spray on bed liner to protect the bottom and sides (4 or 5 coats). Since the S-12 is a loaner I'm using the coil cover, and I can feel the extra weight of it compared to the 12x10 or also I think (from memory) compared to the 13" Ultimate with it's coil cover on. That said though, the S-12 is still a very light coil for it's size even with the coil cover on, and the 12x10 with a coil cover is pretty much a dead match in weight by my numbers to the S-12 with a coil cover (the 12x10 is .1 ounce heavier then). Without coil covers the weights show the S-12 is a half ounce heavier on my scale than the 12x10 without a coil cover if memory serves (refer to a previous post in this thread). The S-12 is a light coil any way you slice it though. Lighter than the 10" Tornado, so once again in no way a knock intended here on this quality coil.

 

[rl48off]

Critter very well put. I couldn't wait and ordered the S-12 today, but really enjoyed your post. I will see how I do on the beach here in Fl. and let you know. Keep up the good work I know I enjoy it !!

Ron L

 

[Rick(ND)]

n/t

 

[Finderskeeper]

I had both the Ultimate 13 and the SEF and in my opinion, the 12 x 10 is a superior coil. Have not used the S-12 coil so I cannot comment on it.

The Ultimate 13 was OK, but the 12 x 10 SEF was way more stable. I just feel more confident using the 12 x 10 over the 13 Ultimate.

While the Ultimate has about the same depth as the 12 x 10, the instability around power lines and from what I hear, the lesser ability of the Ultimate in salt water makes the 12 x 10 the no brainer winner with me. I had a hard time with the Ultimate with stability. It was too jumpy and not as smooth as the 12 x 10. I was continually adjusting the Excalibur to help with the instability but could not find the sweet spot. The 12 x 10 on the other hand, was smooth as silk.


I was thinking of keeping both but after a long hard shoot out between the two using both my Excalibur II's, the 12 x 10 to me was just a better overall coil. So I sold the Ultimate and have another 12 x 10 on the way.

 

[Critterhunter]

Findler's Keepers...I pretty much agree with your assement- If I had to choose I'd pick the 12x10 over the Ultimate because, while the Ultimate is a very stable coil for me even in my mineralized sites, the SEFs are just cream of the crop and hard coils to top in stability in both EMI and minerals. Also, the unique shape of the 12x10 really makes left/right separation much easier.

While I feel the Ultimate seems to have a very sharp DD line as well, it's shear bulk width wise finds me having to re-position myself when several targets are nearby in order to get the right angle to isolate and look at the target I'm interested in. Wierd thing is it seems to separate left/right wise very well at the DD line, yet it's outer edges spanning 13" will hit on nearby targets in some positions where I have to change angles to work the spot easier.

Don't usually have to do that with the 12x10, but in no way does that mean I found the Ultimate didn't separate width wise outstandingly, especially for a coil of it's size, just that it took more re-positioning sometimes to keep nearby targets at the outer edges of the coil from sounding off while I was trying to isolate a target under the coil to inspect it. But odd thing is that if you have two targets laying right up against each other the Ultimate will slice them apart width wise with ease. Maybe not as easily as the 12x10 but darn if I can see a distinct different when wiggling over them to split the two apart left/right wise.

Here's the way I look at things thus far in my initial field impressions of the S-12. For me it's too similar to the 10" Tornado in both shape and some traits, in that I don't want a somewhat bigger version of a round "conventional" DD coil to somewhat replicate the 10" Tornado I already have. The 13" Ultimate is a very different breed of round DD coil IMO, much like the Pro Coil in certain traits (and it's physical design...ain't that odd it looks so much like a Pro Coil?).

For that reason, in a big coil (or should I say an extra big coil), I want to replace the loaner Ultimate I had with one of my own. It's also a very different coil than the 12x10, or 10" Tornado, or S-12, so for that reason alone it's reason enough to put an Ultimate in my arsenal when I want some "strange" on days I'm in the mood for it. The 12x10 is also of course a very different coil then the 10" Tornado, and although it's only 10" wide it's 12" length for sure makes coverage easier and also for me separates left/right wise better than the excellent Tornado, so I don't feel I'm replicating the stock coil by having a 12x10.

So that's my way of thinking- 12x10 as most every day land coil for both super deep coins, coverage, and heavy trash, but the Ultimate for deep coins as well, especially when I'm trying to cover a large open field or beach even faster than the improvement the 12x10 gives over stock in that respect. I tend to have to hold my steps back less when gridding with the Ultimate. The 15x12 I owned was great at coverage too and more stable than the Ultimate, but I felt the 15x12 was too much of a replication of having a 12x10 and also, while lighter than the 10" Tornado if you remove the coil cover, it doesn't feel nearly as light or as nice on the shaft as the Ultimate.

The S-12 is a quality coil and thus far in the little use I've used it seems stable. I'm just feeling it's more of a duplication on land to my 10" Tornado for me. But, depending on how further field hunts go with it, I'll probably end up getting one to replace my 10" Tornado on my water shaft. Being round I bet the S-12 isn't nearly the drag of my 12x10 in the water, and I ain't risking my future Ultimate in the water either, so if I like the S-12 then it'll become my water coil for my coverage and depth over the 10" Tornado. For me when water hunting and sometimes not being able to see the coil I want the biggest coil possible to insure I'm not missing gaps in my grid, but at the same time I don't want excessive drag like I felt the 12x10 or 15x12 had in the water. For all the above reasons I'm betting the S-12 is the perfect water coil for me. Has to be good reason why it seems the most favorite aftermarket coil among Excal water hunters, with perhaps the WOT being a very close second in how much I see them mentioned in the beach forum and such.

On land I also prefer the more treble-like sharper more "distinct" and higher pitch of the 12x10 and Ultimate, but as said that all depends on what kind of hearing you have and your tastes, so I'm sure many would also opt instead for the S-12's audio qualities. It seems to have a more mellow less "crisp" type of report that might be easier for some (depending on hearing) to analyze targets with. For me though the sharper bark of the 12x10 or Ultimate is easier for my ears to pick apart target qualities with. This isn't a "12x10/Ultimate Wins" type of statement. All depends on personal tastes IMO as to which coils people might prefer. I seem to remember reading through some old posts where Coinsearch users said they prefered the more broad or mellow type of report that coil gives, which sounds to me much like how the S-12 seems to talk to me.

For a trash coil based on all the opinions I've read I'm going to get my hands on a eight inch (7.25") Tornado. I've read nothing but praise for both it's depth and separation. I remember reading of some coins around a foot deep dug with that little coil, and many seem to use it as there every day coil and pop silver at long since given up for dead pounded out public sites. That doesn't surprise me, as it's smaller than 8" coils on other machines to give the edge on separation, and yet it sounds like it punches deeper than even other machines using much larger coils. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with my S-5 yet. If I can find somebody to trade me a 8" Tornado for it then the deal is done. If I can't, and I can't find a used 8" Tornado, and if a dealer won't knock off the price of a Tornado in trading in the S-5 for it, then I guess I'll hold onto the S-5. This coil, being only 5.5" in size, does have outstanding length wise separation though.

One more tid bit on the S-12. It is a light coil. Lighter than the 10" Tornado. Using my 12x10 without a coil cover it's 2.7 ounces lighter than my loaner S-12 that has a coil cover. That may not sound like much but the S-12 on the shaft feels heavier than that to me. Not to the point of being uncomfortable but just saying it feels heavier than that 2.7 ounces my digital scale shows. It also feels heavier on the shaft than the 13" Ultimate which is only half an ounce lighter than the S-12 when I used the loaner Ultimate with it's coil cover on, yet once again the Ultimate felt much lighter to me. Keep this other oddity in mind too- The Ultimate with a coil cover is 2.2 ounces heavier than my 12x10 without a coil cover (using spray on bed liner), yet the Ultimate feels lighter than the 12x10 to me. Not that the 12x10 is heavy, just that the Ultimate feels lighter and just even more "right" on the shaft than the 12x10. Even though the 12x10 feels great on the shaft too, the Ultimate just seems to take it up another notch in how it makes the detector feel. Still not sure if that is reality due to the round shape of the Ultimate, or if it's just an eye perception thing seeing a big white coil on the end of the shaft and yet you don't feel what you expect.

Either way, long way to a point- Why does the S-12 feel heavier than the weights show? Here's another thought- The 10" Tornado without a coil cover to me feels lighter than the S-12 with a coil cover, even though the reality is the Tornado is .4 ounces heavier coverless. Why all this vague "feel" impressions above then with all these coils even though the numbers show otherwise? I suspect it's the S-12 not having it's shaft mounting dead center like the 12x10 and Ultimate do (the Tornado doesn't though). Maybe it's the extra length of the S-12 hanging off the front of the shaft due to the more backwards mounting position that creates a nose heavy feel for me on my custom light weight land shaft?

All that said though, in no way am I saying the S-12 is a heavy coil or uncomfortable to use. It's a very light coil for being 12.5" in size. The round 10" Tornado is 2.5" smaller in diameter and yet the S-12 is a lighter coil. Think about that. It's no small statement. Reality wise the S-12 by the scale numbers is one very light coil. If I get one as my water coil then the 10" Tornado will no longer have a place on land or in the water on my GT, but as I add a few other prior Sovereign models to my aresnal the 10" Tornado will find a home once again on either a backup water rig or a backup land rig, and also as a loaner to people I'm trying to get to drink the Sovereign kool aid and experience the wonderful addiction this machine gives you once you see the depth, stability, long detailed telling audio, and super high conductivity resolution a 180 meter offers on it to really split fine hairs on rings or nickels versus tabs and other junk.

 

[Critterhunter]

And my initial impressions already gone over above are still giving me the same feelings. Keep in mind these are just my personal impressions/feelings and it might not be the case for others. When we are talking about such subtle things as audio response or how the coils field seems to react (which nobody can actually see of course), distinctions can be vague and highly different in impression from one person to another. I make no claims otherwise...

Audio- More "broad" and mellow voice to targets and with less volume it seems, compared to the 12x10 or 13" Ultimate. I prefer the sharper, louder, more "crisp" bark with more "treble" like response of the 12x10/Ultimate. Not sure but I think the 12x10 is even a bit sharper in this respect than the Ultimate but it's very close.

Stability- Haven't used it much around EMI or at my more mineralized sites as of yet to judge how it handles though compared to the 12x10, but I can at least say it will allow full blast manual like the 12x10 or Ultimate in low EMI and good soil.

Weight- Feels heavier to me than the numbers say, and the only reason I presume that it feels that way is due to the more backward mounting point. Still not uncomfortable to use for a coil of it's size. Just saying it feels heavier than the scale shows compared to my 12x10 or the Ultimate.

"Wiggle Work" To Get The Tone & ID Of A Deep Target To Climb To Proper Place- Seems like it takes me more effort to wiggle up a deep target's ID/tone, but again this is probably due to me being more in rhythm with the traits of the DD line on the SEF or Ultimate I'm guessing. I think a more broad short sweep/wiggle is called for with the S-12 but I'm just so practiced at doing this real super tight with other coils that that's probably what is throwing off the "climb" as I get out of sync with what this coil wants to "strum" the DD line with the target constantly to work up the tone/ID. Only thing I can think is that the DD line is a bit more "robust" or somewhat "broader", needing a somewhat different wiggle than I'm used to. *IF* this is true, then perhaps that explains the more "broad" and mellow response I seem to hear from it. Again, others might prefer this type of audio in a coil. All depends on personal taste.

Keepers? Thus far just that pendant, which I found out is a Brownie pin. I have, though, dug 2 or 3 wheat's with the S-12, but that's been about it at a spot where I know deepies lurk, as we've dug some fringe depth stuff there over the last year or so. That doesn't say anything about the S-12 either way, because I've got skunked there on occasion with other coils as well.

Conclusions So Far? Won't see any use for me on land over my 12x10 or 13" Ultimate, but I can very well see myself replacing my 10" Tornado with the S-12 as my water coil for easier coverage and depth. I'm just not a fan of the drag of the SEF coils in the water. I have a line on a couple of S-12 coils with shorts in the coil cable that I've been offered to buy at a good price, so I probably will pick those up, fix them, sell off one, and try the other in the water on my water shaft. So long as it's drag isn't too much like the SEFs for me in the water then it'll be my water coil.

One thing I don't like when I'm trying to be careful gridding in the water is sometimes when I can't see the coil, so the bigger the coil the better for me in the water. Besides, the 10" Tornado when I use it in the sand during my water breaks feels like such a tiny coil to me now having got used to the 12x10. It feels like an 8" coil these days to me and that just bothers me when water hunting. Completely happy with it though in the water so if I find the S-12 is too much drag for my likings in the water I'll be fine to go back to the 10" Tornado for that.

I plan to build an arsenal of various Sovereign models and all coils I can get my hands on anyway just for future "dooms day" scenarios when Sovereign stuff gets very hard to find , so I plan to acquire and hold onto any and all Sovereign coils I can get my hands on, with the exception of the old BBS 8 and 10" coils. Everything else is fair game- 8" concentric, 5 & 6 (?) inch Excelerators, 12 to 18" or so Excelerators, 15x12, Ultimate, WOT, 4.5x7, 10x14, 8" Coinsearch Coil and 8" Tornado, and so on.

 

[rl48off]

Critter my s-12 will be coming probably next week. I hope it works out good on the fl beach/wet sand and water. I hope I didn't make a mistake ordering this coil. don't see alot of people looking for this on the Internet, must be a reason. I know Sunray's good reputation and maybe that's why I bought it ?? We will see. I will let you know after a couple of weeks.

Ron L

 

[Critterhunter]

Please give us a field report/opinion on it versus other coils you own or have used. Love to read that stuff and I know many lurk here that never post publicly that do as well, as I've conversed with many over time privately who soak that kind of stuff up like a spounge to see comparisons, myself included.

In particular I'm interested now in how it handles bad EMI and ground minerals. Primarily my hunts thus far have been at a low EMI/low minerals site, but that's the rarity (low minerals in particular) at most of my sites, so I'm itching to take it to a bad mineral spot and see how high it will allow sensitivity compared to my 12x10, as well as how high it allows sensitivity near EMI compared to the 12x10 too. Got to do that for my next hunt.

The S-12 probably is the most popular aftermarket coil for Excalibur water hunters. For that reason I suspect its round shape doesn't increase drag much over the 10" Tornado, and is why I suspect the SEFs don't seem to be used in the water as much. If the Ultimate was rated waterproof I suspect it's drag is low too, as it's a very thing coil and being round probably doesn't offer much drag. I just don't want to trust using the Ultimate in the water when I buy one of my own, and I didn't for sure want to risk the loaner I had in the water for that reason either. Still waiting to hear from somebody who has used the Ultimate in the water as to it's drag compared to the 10" Tornado or other coils, just for curiosity sake. Would also like to hear opinions of the S-12's drag in the water to the 10" Tornado too, and in contrast to the 12x10, because the 12x10 for me was beyond the amount of drag I wanted to deal with on long hunts.

 

[rl48off]

OK will do !

 

[Rob in (Ca)]

The S-12 is the ultimate Beach coil, for the GT, And I have tried them all

 

[rl48off]

You didn't try the 13" Ultimate !!

 

[deepdiger60]

I agree with Rob the S-12 and Tornado,s rules on salt water beaches the 13" and 12x10 keep far away from salt sand and water i sold both . Jim

 

[rl48off]

That's good to know because I just ordered one. At first I didn't like my Ultimate on the beach here in Fl. but it's been doing a very good job , the more I use it the more I like it even by the water. Now I will have something to compare when I get the S-12

Ron L

 

[Critterhunter]

DeepDiger, you appear to be the exception and not the rule when it comes to the stability of the 12x10 in both minerals, EMI, and salt water. I can't even remember once reading any FBS or BBS guys saying the 12x10 was bad in minerals or salt water. Well, perhaps once or twice maybe I did but I sure can't remember having read that ever since their introduction. The only machines I've heard of issues with these coils are certain non-Minelab brands that seem to be rather picky about coil selection. Issues such as stability and pin pointing. It might be you've got some rather rare minerals that just rub the SEF coils the wrong way or something. Only thing I can figure, because the consenses is this coils are as stable in the worst of grounds, salt, and EMI as it gets

I just took my 12x10 today for a short hunt to a small corner lot that "has it all." I know from prior hunts with just about every machine I've owned over the years that both EMI due to nearby electrical wires and also some hot rock/black sand like soil plays havoc with stability and requires a very low sensitivity setting. Sections of better ground with rich black soil in this lot is loaded with iron, posing another roadblock to stability. I have used the 10" Tornado here in the past and it did OK, better than prior machines I owned in terms of stability and allowing higher sensitivity riding this rough ride of road blocks. I've used the 12x10 a few times there in the past as well but couldn't remember how it did. I'm happy to say that the GT was stable as high as about 9PM (roughly 3/4ths all the way to full blast manual). Once I hit the iron patch are started to lose the threshold here and there and so I lifted the coil into the air to make sure it wasn't EMI. By holding the coil still in the air that is when you can tell if you've got an EMI issue. The coil has to be held horizontal though like you would be hunting, as turning it vertical can increase EMI reception. Once I got out of the iron patch the threshold was almost never nulling again, so I knew it was neither an EMI or a mineralization issue in that patch of ground.

It's fairly common knowledge that egg shaped DD coils appear to be less prone to EMI issues. Even before the SEFs came out I've read many say that was true for them in various coils, so it's not a huge surprise that it's got good stability around sources of electrical interference.

The 10" Tornado though, there is no doubt is one excellent stock DD coil. I'd have to say it's the best stock coil I ever owned on any machine over the years, concentric or DD. It's very stable, separates left/right very well, and punches deep. I just feel the 12x10 takes it up a notch in all these respects, and also improves the audio response by way of both volume and crispness.