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Newbie's Comparison Of GT To Whites, Explorer, Etc.

Trying to get rid of pulltabs and still get gold i would say is imposible on any detector built so far(within reasonable price range) to any degree of accuracy, trying to study pulltabs is not much use either as there are so many types that cover a wide range, to give an example take the id of a square pulltab and take note, double it in half or even break one of the barrs(like so many do) and then id it again, it won't be the same for all its the same tab, in air is not the same as in ground which is not the same as in sand, too many variables enter to get any sort of concrete id to discriminate it out and still get all gold, gold is the same there are so many variables depending on the karret, thickness shape and form and adatives like silver and copper to get the colour, on the etrac i have had gold from 12-01 to 12-39/40 and thats just on the 12 line. Once you have sorted the pulltabs then start on the foil as gold is in that range too.

To put it simple you will spend more time trying in vane to make some kind of sense of it all and then writing about it than you will just digging them up, get out there and dig man. Some knowlegable people on here have given you some good advice, take it or leave it is your decision, but plowing this same field over and over again is getting boring, sorry
 
Remember that it's real easy to click the scroll bar rather than read my long and boring messages. :biggrin:

As I pointed out several times already, I can well understand where you and probably most people are coming from in the "dig it all" strategy. I've long lived by that rule in my years of detecting in many situations. However, have you ever wondered who exactly conducted the research to come to that conclusion as the one and only rule? Other than the old Fisher test in which many rings were scanned and charted (and the resolution of that meter was about as primative as it gets), I've never seen any other studies done to investigate exactly where certain percentages of *random* gold rings fall on the scale. With the advent of wider VDI scales it doesn't hurt to at least prove that that old saying still holds true. I might just as well be wrong about some if not all of my theory, but I'd rather prove that to myself than just spout off that it can't be done. Seen that attitude hold too many people back in several fields. Assuming a conclusion without going through the scientific steps to reach it isn't a conclusion at all.

If anything, there is at least one workable search strategy that I've used with a fairly good success in the past, though I hope to improve that a bit with the higher resolution on the lower part of the scale that the GT affords. Machines I've previously used it on had much less ability for me to work with, though it still proved it's worth. As simple but probably not short (nor no less boring) as I can make it, here's the whole ball of wax...

If I am hunting a large area that is simply loaded with say 5 or 6 specific trash targets, most commonly pulltabs of some sort, I simply do not wish to spend several years and countless hours digging each and every one of them. If my statistics show that there is still a large percentage of rings that fall outside of those specific numbers common to those specific tabs at that specific site, I'm willing to trade the say 27% of rings that fall into those numbers in return for the other 73% while still digging 90% less trash than I would by not avoiding them. That's a trade that's well worth it IMHO. Just as audio, vdi, and proper machine setup are powerful tools, so is that big blob of flesh called a brain that we all carry around with us. Deciding it's not possible to figure out is an easy way, and so then we can go about our mindless way digging each and every target that the coil passes over.

More specificly, what I hope to clearify for myself is exactly what percentage of test rings (*randomly selected*...not ones somebody found digging the "nickle" or perhaps "tab" zone because that's what everybody says to do) are in certain number zones. Then I'll have good idea at what that percentage is, and what percentage are still obtainable by avoiding those numbers. That's the whole point. If the tried and true slogan that "most fall into the nickle zone" holds true then that's still good because it's well below pulltabs, but if I find that another large percentage range from 95 to 135, or say 165 to 173, then that's something to work with as well. Further still, depending on the area it might be worth digging certain numbers within the full span of tabs, ones that aren't commonly coming up in my air tests. I've already noted no less than 3 or 4 numbers within that span of 153 to 165 that are a total blank in my very random sample base. These tabs weren't cherry picked, but rather were the results of digging "anything above iron" at numerous sites. Again, I'm willing to follow through and accept the final conclusion, not prejudge what it's going to be.

As far as getting out there and hunting goes, I live in the Northeast and it's that time of year when the weather tells me when I can hunt. I enjoy researching new sites and conducting these kinds of tests almost as much as I do detecting. It's all part of the hobby.
 
Hey critterhunter,

As I mentioned above, due to some electrical interference around my home, I don't do much if any bench testing or messing with test gardens. Kind of a bite, but that's the way it is.

I live in the ski belt and am about 20-30 minutes away from 7 ski resorts and this time of year my hunting is also controlled by the winter weather. So I have plenty of time to kill waiting for some good weather. I have an older model of Sovereign, XS-2a Pro, and am using a rescaled Minelab XS2 meter. I and am wondering how the VDI numbers of your GT and Minelab Digisearch meter compare to mine.

If you're willing, can I persuade you to provide some calibration checks that myself and others can use?

I will pop over to a local park where there isn't any interference and check a sampling of five 2000 and newer nickels and copper clad zinc pennies. I will calibrate from five newer quarters. These will represent, for the most part, the lower and upper ends of the gold ring area.

This will give me an idea if any of your results are specifically usuable or if they will be generalities for me.

Thanks,

Rich (Utah)
 
No one is spouting off, only offering opinions based on experience and/or "common sense" knowing a bit about how detector discrimination works and that is what you asked for. No one is trying to discourage you but do you think your the only person that has tried to come up with a formula for digging less trash and still find good targets? Who knows, you might be a new pioneer and discover something that company engineers and countless detectorists over the years have missed.
 
I got a few minutes to respond to some of this.

There was a book out that was for finding rings with the Sovereigns and there was many many rings tested to tell where most would read on the meter and tone wise. Otto Fielder and someone else made a book and believe it was called "Finding Rings with the Sovereigns" Not sure if that is the actual name or not, but it was very interesting and showed what % of them read in a certain area.
Now myself I find several ways if looking for gold rings. One is most gold rings I have found and it is not a lot,, but knowing your Sovereign well you will see many gold rings will sound smoother than a pull tab and read on the meter slightly different than what the tone sounds like. One of my best read 141 which normally was a beaver tail off the round pull tabs, but sounded more like a nickle and smoother sounding than a beaver tail, so I dug it to find a very nice old gold ring. Many I have hunted with that uses Sovereign told me they too notice they read smoother than normal trash is why they dig. Not all are gold rings, but some can be. The second way is see what most pull tabs sound like and read as on the meter and just not dig them and dig everything else plus I always dig deep weak signals that are repeatable and yet hard to get a good ID on and just seem to try to and cant quite make it.
This is what comes with experience and getting to know your Sovereigns.

One more thing for those with the Elite and GT band 2 will read like the older Sovereigns as far as the meter while band 1 will make nickles read a few numbers higher, but haven't notice this on anything other than a nickle and some lower ID targets.

Rick
 
I managed about my fifth, six, or seventh hunt with the GT yesterday. I went back to the spot detailed earlier in the thread where I had got the square belt buckle with the letter "D" on it's face. This particular spot has yielded Washingtons, mercs, and rosies in the past but the oldest coin was one indian head. I knew this area had to offer older and deeper coins based on it's age, and the fact that some of the mercs and washingtons I've dug there have been around 8" deep or so. Most of this field is very low in trash but there is a back strip about twenty feet wide and maybe 60 yards long that is loaded with iron and other trash. That's where I got the belt buckle. The field has been hunted hard with a 6000 pro xl, QXT Pro, CZ6a, Explorer, and I'm sure numerous other machines as I talked to a local detecting club member who has hit it with his friends over the years.

When I first got there I intended to hunt the trashy area but figured I'd start out looking for a deep coin signal in the less trashy middle of the field first. Running iron mask on, sensitivity at about 11 o'clock, threshold, disc at about 90 to knock out little foil and aluminum bits, and notch set from 152.5 to 165 (see the splitting hairs on rings thread for details on this). Within about four minutes I get a fairly loud 173 number on the meter which repeats from any direction and sounds good. Switching to pinpoint I can now tell that the target is pretty deep. Wow, it sounded loud in discriminate. Digging down 5 or 6 inches I still don't have the target. Now I'm starting to suspect a phantom signal or iron spike because it didn't sound this deep. I re-check my pinpoint and I'm right on. Dig down about 7 or 8 inches and still no target. Almost ready to give up when I figured I better keep digging because I don't know what this machine is capable of yet. Around 9", or at least very close to it, out pops a 1903 indian. Wow...it was loud, it locked on perfect from any direction, and I know for a fact that I gridded that particular spot hard with the Explorer.

I wander over to the trashy area and dug several trash targets. I know this area is loaded with pulltabs but thanks to my notch setting I only dug a few. I then get a good signal close to 180 mixed in with iron trash. At about 5 inches out comes a thimble. Interestingly enough, the day before I dug a sterling one in the woods with my QXT Pro. That's two in two days. After digging a few nickles (143 seems to be the most comon # for them), several other pieces of trash and some non-silver silverware, I decide to wander back over into the middle of the field near where I got the indian. About ten feet away I get a loud 143 signal again that pinpoint tells me is deep. Once again I'm ready to give up on the target when at about 8 or 9 inches out pops a 1911 V-Nickle. Once again I wounder how I could have missed that with the Explorer or my other machines, or how numerous competitors hadn't got these two coins. There was no trash around them, and they were near enough to the only large tree in the middle of the field that everybody must be drawn to this spot.

Am I impressed? Yes. Am I happy that one of my favorite spots seems virgin ground again? Yep. Do I plan to spend more than the hour an a half I had to hunt it last night next time I go there? You bet. My only concern thus far, though it isn't like I've done a lot of old coin hunting with it yet at all, is that I haven't popped a deep silver yet. I want to prove to myself that this machine is getting down there on the silver coins. I already know it hits hard and deep on copper, nickle, and gold.

As you can see from the picture I hardly dug any trash at all. I'm real surprised we missed the silverware on prior hunts. The indian and V are getting a bath right now so they aren't in the picture.
 
Rich (Utah) said:
Hey critterhunter,

As I mentioned above, due to some electrical interference around my home, I don't do much if any bench testing or messing with test gardens. Kind of a bite, but that's the way it is.

I live in the ski belt and am about 20-30 minutes away from 7 ski resorts and this time of year my hunting is also controlled by the winter weather. So I have plenty of time to kill waiting for some good weather. I have an older model of Sovereign, XS-2a Pro, and am using a rescaled Minelab XS2 meter. I and am wondering how the VDI numbers of your GT and Minelab Digisearch meter compare to mine.

If you're willing, can I persuade you to provide some calibration checks that myself and others can use?

I will pop over to a local park where there isn't any interference and check a sampling of five 2000 and newer nickels and copper clad zinc pennies. I will calibrate from five newer quarters. These will represent, for the most part, the lower and upper ends of the gold ring area.

This will give me an idea if any of your results are specifically usuable or if they will be generalities for me.

Thanks,

Rich (Utah)

Sure, I'll help. Give me a few days to read your message and do the testing as I'm pressed for time at the moment. In fact, I'm printing out the latest responses to read later over a smoke.
 
crazyman said:
No one is spouting off, only offering opinions based on experience and/or "common sense" knowing a bit about how detector discrimination works and that is what you asked for. No one is trying to discourage you but do you think your the only person that has tried to come up with a formula for digging less trash and still find good targets? Who knows, you might be a new pioneer and discover something that company engineers and countless detectorists over the years have missed.

I wasn't refering to you as spouting off so sorry if it came across that way. Nor do I think I'll be the first to discover something everybody else hasn't. I'm simply looking for a way, even slight, to tilt the trash to ring ratio in my favor. From the looks of the chart it may be more of an advantage at doing this than I first thought. Sorry again if you took that as a slight towards you. It wasn't.
 
I'm just talking about my own personal experience. Others may differ depending on there own experience and hunting style. If I'm reading your chart right it basically confirms what I stated earlier. A few numbers below through a few numbers above the nickel range is where a large percentage of gold rings that are found fall in the VDI range of most detectors. I've done these same tests with various detectors to satisfy my curiosity so I understand where your coming from. Doing these type of tests can be fun and a good way to learn how different detectors ID targets within it's VDI range but I never found it to be very practical in the field. There are other great finds to be had that fall in the same junk range besides rings. I've been fortunate to have found 3 gold coins through the years. All read in the wide pulltab range along with many other interesting finds including a gold thimble. Even when I hunt areas where I want to be a little more selective because of modern trash I don't notch anything out but examine each target and base my decision on possible tone differences and/or depth more so than the VDI reading.
 
I've finally put together a halfway decent vdi chart to carry with me while hunting. It's still in it's prototype stage. The listings not in bold are not mine and I need to confirm that certain coins do in fact fall into their listings before putting them in bold. If anybody has access to any of those coins and can confirm the numbers they list that'd be great. I don't trust the numbers as for one I'm finding my nickles in noise band 2 to read higher than what they list. I listed percentage of pulltab numbers from my random sample on the chart, as well as the entire number span for white and yellow gold rings. I'm not settled on the format yet as well, but at least it's something to work on.

I'm a bit confused by the composition of indians and wheats and so where certain number ranges should read. Hence the question marks in the chart. If anybody has some information on this please list it.

You might want to load the picture into Paint and then shrink it down in side to what you feel like carrying if it's too big.
 
crazyman said:
Even when I hunt areas where I want to be a little more selective because of modern trash I don't notch anything out but examine each target and base my decision on possible tone differences and/or depth more so than the VDI reading.

I do that as well. 99% of the time I hunt with nothing discriminated out on the QXT Pro, even small iron, large iron, and the ground (hot rock) signal. However, there are places where the noise from targets is so distracting that it requires watching the meter constantly and also distracts my attention while hunting. In those situations, like areas loaded with pulltabs, silencing numbers I don't plan to dig allows me to concentrate on the targets that do sound off.

84% of all tabs when you consider that there can be hundred or thousands of them at particular sites means much less digging. Losing only 35% of medium rings is a very good trade off in my opinion, and at least gives me a point of attack that makes working the area for rings something worth doing. Digging all other numbers that sound off also makes life more interesting in the variety of targets recovered, rather than one pull tab after another. Only time will tell if this method is more productive than digging everything at extremely trashy sites.
 
Critterhunter said:
Rich (Utah) said:
Hey critterhunter,

As I mentioned above, due to some electrical interference around my home, I don't do much if any bench testing or messing with test gardens. Kind of a bite, but that's the way it is.

I live in the ski belt and am about 20-30 minutes away from 7 ski resorts and this time of year my hunting is also controlled by the winter weather. So I have plenty of time to kill waiting for some good weather. I have an older model of Sovereign, XS-2a Pro, and am using a rescaled Minelab XS2 meter. I and am wondering how the VDI numbers of your GT and Minelab Digisearch meter compare to mine.

If you're willing, can I persuade you to provide some calibration checks that myself and others can use?

I will pop over to a local park where there isn't any interference and check a sampling of five 2000 and newer nickels and copper clad zinc pennies. I will calibrate from five newer quarters. These will represent, for the most part, the lower and upper ends of the gold ring area.

This will give me an idea if any of your results are specifically usuable or if they will be generalities for me.

Thanks,

Rich (Utah)

Sure, I'll help. Give me a few days to read your message and do the testing as I'm pressed for time at the moment. In fact, I'm printing out the latest responses to read later over a smoke.

Did the testing calibrated with a new quarter at 180. Newer nickles 2000+ are reading about 144 to 145 for me. Zincs are reading 176-180. Sorry I can't be more specific. I would figure that so long as you set at 180 for a quarter and nickles are somewhere in the 143 to 145 range (in good shape) then you should be right on.
 
Here's my updated VDI chart I carry while hunting. It still needs work but it's getting closer. Trash targets are now highlighted. I'm having trouble trying to pin down where the two or three types of wheats or indians should read on the chart. If anybody has those date ranges and probable VDI #s please post them. I'd also like to hear if anybody is digging nickles of any type below 139 on the meter. Mine are coming in at 139 to 147, with most in the 143-145 range, yet the chart I found online reads them at 137-140. I'd also like to hear where people are reading half dimes, silver 3 cent pieces, and other odd coins. Right now I'm relying on the chart I found but I don't trust those numbers as I'm seeing differences in what I've tested myself thus far. I'm using noise band 2 which is said to match the older Sovereigns. Band 1 is said to shift nickles higher.

By the way, yesterday I went back to the trashy area of that field I hunted the other day. Dug several more spoons/forks when I got a solid 110 vdi from any direction. All prior low numbers I've dug like this have been jumpy and turned out to be trash, but since this one was staying put and sounding smoother I figured I'd check it out. Dug up a small pendant around the size of a dime with the queen on it. Looked shinny like silver but knew it couldn't be since it was reading so low. When I went to wipe away the dirt it crumbled in my hand. Just helps to prove that something uniform in shape like a ring should most times lock onto 1, 2, or 3 numbers while a lot of trash will jump around more.
 
With the GT if you run noise cancel 1 the nickles will read higher numbers like 146-148, but in 2 it will read around the 143-145 range.
The copper penny, clad and silver should read 179-180 if the meter is calibrated for 180 on a new quarter in either freq 1 or 2. Now the new zinc penny, the IH penny plus some of the early wheat penny's will read 176-177. Now sometimes it will be trying to get these numbers but just cant make it as it is so deep and I find with the GT I see less of this than any of the other model Sovereigns. These are those weak tone changes that are repeatable and small signals that are so deep it is hard for the Sovereign to see them.
You should not see a 176-180 on a zinc penny as 177 is max if it is calibrated to a 180 the highest number on the quarter.
From some experience with the Sovereign you will see you may be able to call the 180 coin before it is dug by the way the tones and meter react 75% of the time.
As I have said before the more you use the Sovereign the more you will learn and the better some of the finds will get, nice ones from areas everyone think is worked out, but the Sovereign will get them and impress others plus yourself. You will also see the Sovereigns are very easy to use once you get to know them.
 
Thanks for the info. I was suspicious of the higher zinc readings as well. I think I might have mixed in a copper or two and will have to re-test them.
 
Critterhunter...I didn't have the time to read this entire thread but if you talk about Lipo (lithium polymer) batteries you might want to point out that they are supposed to be charged in a fire proof container as they have been known to explode and cause fires and folks have lost garages and homes. If fact, there is a You-Tube video of some guys purposely overcharging the Lipos and shows the terrible explosion. There's nothing inherently dangerous about them if you know how to charge them. I too fly, with R/C Helis, and the regular ol dirt digger, unless they are forwarned, are not going to know about the potential danger of using Lipos. Jim
 
Yea, I think I pointed out several times that if they aren't charged properly at no more than 1C (2.2 amps on a 2200ma pack) with a charger that is meant for lipos you risk fire or explosion. I also said they shouldn't be discharged to less than 9V for a 3 cell series pack or again you risk the same. Puncture or dent them and they can also go nuclear. I store mine in a metal box in my refrigerator at a sleep storage charge to prolong their life when not in use for weeks as well, and always charge them in the middle of a cement floor well away from anything that might catch fire. It takes about an hour or less to charge them and I always stay near them while doing this to monitor the situation.\ Nicads or nimhs can be dangerous as well if they are shorted or damaged, but not nearly as much as lipos. Lipos contain material that if exposed to the air will ignite.

While I would think that the Sovereign would sound the low battery alarm well before 9V, I still wouldn't trust it. Re-charging the pack after about 2 8 hour hunts should eliminate any risk. A 2250ma 3 cell is over 3 ounces lighter than the stock rechargable pack. A 1500ma pack would be even lighter. I figure I can hitch up two mini alligator leads to the stock battery leads on the control box and not even need the stock pack's empty battery box in place for additional weight savings, but one would have to be careful that the leads don't come loose and potentialy short to each other. That would also cause a possible fire or explosion.

The voltage of a 3 cell series pack should be just where the Sovereign wants it voltage wise, and lipos hold their voltage well until the very end of the charge. I'm finding the stock rechargable pack to work very well but I'm only thinking in terms of trying to drop as much weight as possible, even with the unit hip mounted.

Remember that cell phones and now many power tools use similar batteries, though the chemical make up can be a bit different, such as Lithium Ion. Some of the new power tools are using A123 cells which also have a different chemical mix. These cells are said to be much safer in that they can be drained dead without damage and even if you puncture them they shouldn't go nuclear.
 
Here's the latest Sovereign ID chart I've compiled. It's very close to final now but I'm still wondering about the wheats and indians and what dates should fall where. I'd load it into paint and shrink the images to something small enough to comfortably carry. Still need input on various odd coin VDI readings. I just don't trust what isn't in bold (not my readings) from an online chart based on how my numbers of certain things differed...
 
Two days ago I managed to get out for another hunt. This area has produced some really deep barbers and seateds. Even rosies and mercs are at least 6 or 7" deep or deeper. Anyway, when I got there I found the wind was much stronger than I thought. Despite wearing gloves and a winter jumpsuit my hands were frozen in a matter of minutes from the wind chill. I told a friend hunting with a 6000 pro xl that I was going home, but before doing that I figured I'd try to find one good deep coin signal as I haven't hunted the spot with the GT yet. Within minutes I got a perfect 180 signal with loud audio response, but I could tell by the audio "boost" (background "hum" increases with the audio) that the GT was "boosting" the signal from a deep target. Again, I don't know what is going on here but I suspect either the audio or RX signal is being boosted on deeper targets.

By the sound of it in pinpoint I would guess it was probably in the 8"+ range. Seems about right since this was about the max depth we'd get here with prior machines, so I'd expect a lot of coins 8" or deeper. I called him over to sweep the spot and he had to work it for a while before he finally said he was getting a coin signal but just hardly. If he hadn't known exactly where to sweep his coil to try to get a response he probably never would have heard it. With frozen hands and wet ground I said I'd be back on another day to dig that target up, if he didn't already.
 
:blink: :surprised: :yikes: :puke:

To be continued next spring........... hope you find it again. Sometimes these signals only show up once in a while under certain circumstances.



Rich (Utah)
 
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