New Fisher CZ Unit

[bfodnes]

Yes, thats my tought with other words. A picture of the sound as it happens when the coil pass the targets.

A colorscreen could show modulation with colors, redhot-shallow to lightblue-deep. That way the symbol could be the same with respect to all other graphical info it may held.

Fishers own winged logo could work very well with the VDI nr in the center and with the colorchanging sun around it. The wings could held clues to all other different nuances.

Personally I think we humans are born to read symbols and learn them easier then making up info from adding information from many different parts on a screen.

 

[bfodnes]

Yes, a symbol can hold lots of information even as a static picture.

A graphic symbol with all pixels accepting change can give alot more information. It will be a learning process for sure but worth it.

 

[earthmansurfer]

Bfodness - I really like your idea regarding some sort of symbol like representation of sound. I think to find a balance of raw data and interpreted data is key, but via testing (or even an adjustable ability) it can be attained.

I like the E-Trac's 2D screen and 2 sets of numbers. The Fe numbers are great in helping me to determine or confirming depth and the CO numbers are just constant. I am now sold on this opposed to just 2 VID numbers that most detectors now use. So, I really look forward to what Dave is working on.

I also like how the E-Trac has an analog or more raw (longer) sound. It is almost like a mini all metal mode (requires very little movement to get a response.) The Omega also has great analog like sound to it.

 

[bfodnes]

I would like raw data too and let my brain learn the symbols ( acoustics ) lol... but it may very need to be balanced by the engineers. No interpreting filters though.

The Minelabs as You say use a sort of symbol floating on a 2d screen but it is nothing more then a symbolic way of telling you the same as the numbers. A very simple proof that the human brain likes symbols. And psst... have you seen the rise of symbols lately wherever you are.

And yes, I too like the ultra slow motion of the FBS and still be able to catch ID deep. That is the one thing I like most about them.

The new Fishers have really good subtle nuances in the sound and very good modulation too. It can tell a trained user of the detector more then any screen now can.

Thats why I want a symbol to go with the sound, the regular way of telling information on a flat screen is not telling you much about the object found other then educated digital guesses about depth and conductivity.

I dont know if any detector engineer likes my idea but just maybe they do...

I hear subtle differences in the sound from my pulsedetectors too and have wondered what those differences would look like in a moving graphic... symbol on screen..

I have to stop before i go galactic, lol... but star trek was wrong... they actually use obsolete equipment in the future there, have you noticed.

 

[Mike Hillis]

If we are going to be looking at visual representations of audio signals, what is the driver of the audio? The instrument is still going to be reporting on phase shifts. What can it report better than... say the spectragraph of the V3? or the histogram of the Cortes or the signagraph of the DFX? The only difference between these three examples is resolution. These graphs are giving a visual representation of peak signal readings and do an excellent job of it.

My new Golden MicroMax has a gold tone that I can move around within that broad conductive range of aluminum. It is of a set width and I can move it down low enough that I can get an edge of it into the transition range between iron and foil or move it up so that I can get an edge of it into that transition area between aluminum and zinc cents. It uses a potentiometer to adjust it. I can get it to touch just what I want it to touch with just the amount I want it to respond with. I can plainly hear and interpret the transition tones as well as the solid tone response. I don't need to see that audio displayed. The audio has already told me conductivity. I don't need to see that graphed and if I did I'd want it graphed with a somewhat fine resolution that is currently available with the V3 spectagraph.

But....can we see the target signal displayed as a shape? Can I get a two-dimensional view of the signal results? Can I see the leading and falling edges (is the slope abrupt or gentle) and the main peak signals and their intensity? Can I control the resolution (how many responses get reported per target response)? Can I hold that image, control its fade rate and paint it into clearer focus with more sweeps? Can I control what signal strength intensity is required to register on the display so that I can remove noise? This is the next step in target character reporting.

That is what I want to see and I believe the technology is available to do it now. My detector audio tells me conductive range, my display target painting tells me shape. My detector audio says tab conductive range, my visual display painting shows something round, not oblong, I know chances are I don't have a tab. My detector audio tells me its foil, my display painting shows something generally miss-shaped, bumpy, I know chances are good that is foil. But I get a foil conductive audio, and a tight round target painting, I know its a good chance it isn't foil.

So Dave, how about a feature called, "target painting" ?
Thanks in advance.

HH
Mike

 

[therover]

Once there is a detector that can interpret the electromagnetic signature of an atom ( gold, silver, copper), and report that there is one present in the target, and the percentage of it in relation to the entire target, then it's detector nirvana. Just dig any target that reports back as it having one of those atoms present.

I am not a scientist....does an elements atomic structure give off a different electromagnetic signature ?

So Dave...how bout it ? Just make it less that a grand !!! HA !

 

[bfodnes]

That will be the ultimate tool, element signature and density.

Maybe it will cost less then a grand grands, lol.

A possibility is that the engineer making one will only make one and then go detecting for life.

 

[bfodnes]

Dont forget the polar plot on the V3i, that is the most interesting ID feature in todays detector displays.

 

[earthmansurfer]

Mike - I think your naming "target painting" is exactly what I (we) were alluding to. And your name would be the perfect marketing tool, LOL! "The new Fisher CZ, the only machine out there with Target Painting, to visually give you what your ears are hearing."

Yes, the target signal represented as a shape or symbol. Again, it takes (new) users a long long time to learn sounds (and some with bad hearing never have that opportunity), and I just think that having a visual representation of sound would be quicker and/or better for those of us (like me) who are more visually oriented as learners in general (and again the older crowd who's hearing is going). It wouldn't even be something to replace the audio (of course) but could be e.g. a confirmation or denial of what you are hearing. (Again, particularly beneficial for newer users - it might point out "visually" what they are hearing.)

I think there would be many many possibilities of reporting sound as pictures or symbols.. At an everyday level, just think of audio players with visual representations of sound (on computers). You don't necessarily need a psychedelic mode, but I'm open to that. ;-) Now, allow a sliding scale of "rawness" to be added. You are familiar with the V3i, so it would be slightly similar to the Base Threshold functionality (if I remember correctly). Where at 90 the screen is pretty open and not very noisy, but as you drop it you allow more data to enter (to perhaps help in pulling coins out of iron or the like). So, maybe you could visually see the iron representation and the coin mixed in with it, and of course hear it too.

EMS

 

[Blank Planet]

it will come with a warning do not use drugs while using this machine it may cause psychedelic episodes

BP

 

[Dave J.]

You guys are posting a lot of good ideas. Keep 'em coming....... and when the action finally slows down, this thread will become a "printer-outer" for engineering dept. A lot of this is already being considered, but some of the explanations you guys have given may make more sense to other engineers than the way I'd explain it, so it's all worthwhile even the ideas that we already have on the drawing board.

Thanks for starting this, earthmansurfer.

--Dave J.

 

[sgoss66]

Guys --

Fascinating thread here.

Mike Hillis -- you said:

But....can we see the target signal displayed as a shape? Can I get a two-dimensional view of the signal results? Can I see the leading and falling edges (is the slope abrupt or gentle) and the main peak signals and their intensity? Can I control the resolution (how many responses get reported per target response)? Can I hold that image, control its fade rate and paint it into clearer focus with more sweeps? Can I control what signal strength intensity is required to register on the display so that I can remove noise? This is the next step in target character reporting.

That is what I want to see and I believe the technology is available to do it now. My detector audio tells me conductive range, my display target painting tells me shape. My detector audio says tab conductive range, my visual display painting shows something round, not oblong, I know chances are I don't have a tab. My detector audio tells me its foil, my display painting shows something generally miss-shaped, bumpy, I know chances are good that is foil. But I get a foil conductive audio, and a tight round target painting, I know its a good chance it isn't foil.

You nailed, right here, something I've had in my mind, but figured it would be exceedingly difficult to do this, with an electromagnetic-type unit.

Another, related idea in my mind...Mike you talked about "a foil reading, but mis-shaped and bumpy target, NO DIG," but "a foil reading, and a round object, DIG..."; in my mind, I have thought about a similar idea but regarding "density" or "mass."

Think about it this way...one of the biggest problems in mis-ID for detectorists is ALUMINUM. Foil, can slaw, pull tabs, pop tops, screw caps, ETC. ETC. These things either read in the "gold range" (foil bits, small gold, and tabs, larger gold), or in the "coin range" (smashed aluminum screw caps). To me, one HUGE difference between a foil piece, a sliver of can slaw, or pull tab VERSUS a gold ring -- and likewise, one HUGE difference between a flattened screw cap VERSUS a quarter, is DENSITY or MASS (weight). Is there ANY WAY to exploit this, from an electromagnetic perspective? There is a drastic difference in the mass/density/weight of a gold ring versus a little piece of can slaw or aluminum foil or pull tab; there is likewise a large difference in the mass/density/weight of that crushed screw cap versus a quarter. This is probably similar in some ways (in terms of how an engineer might deal with the issue) to what you are hitting at, Mike. But, I just can't think of a real good way to exploit these things, electromagnetically (especially the "density" idea). BUT -- maybe an engineer can come up with something useful here. Short of a ground-penetrating radar type of detector (to "paint" a target's 3-D shape), or a "atomic property sensing" type of detector (to show actual metal TYPE), these ideas (somehow reading target "shape" and/or "density") are the only ones I can think of which might "up the odds" for us, regarding the sorting of trash vs. treasure in a "pre-dig" scenario.

It seems to me like, MAYBE, if experienced detectorists have learned to sense "roundness," or shape, in the tones themselves (and also through "shaping" by using pinpoint mode), that MAYBE your "target painting" idea, Mike, could be accomplished through programming (converting these sound "nuances" to a "picture"). The density idea, on the other hand, seems likely "not do-able," to me, electromagnetically, but it sure would be a great discriminating tool, if it could IN ANY WAY be incorporated...

This is one interesting thread, and thanks much, Dave J., for being involved in it...

Steve

 

[bfodnes]

Steve... you said.

It seems to me like, MAYBE, if experienced detectorists have learned to sense "roundness," or shape, in the tones themselves (and also through "shaping" by using pinpoint mode), that MAYBE your "target painting" idea, Mike, could be accomplished through programming (converting these sound "nuances" to a "picture").

I know i can feel the roundness of a target with several detectors and not with others, I know i can ferrous ID the target by using my allmetal mode on some detectors. The density of the target shows up as a very good conductor, also soundwise. You get a shorter, cleaner, and crisper audio then a target with lower density. Detector frequency and design will be important here.

A symbol like this may need to collect information from both the disc channel and the all metal channel simultaneously to catch the best information but you may not need to hear the allmetal channel if you dont want to. I want though.

Now, if you let the detector give you a picture of the target based on the electronics educated guesses you have applyed ID before the information from the symbol reach your mind. You have effectivly ruined your possibility to interpret the symbol and sound information.

 

[Bill_S]

I like the idea of having adjustable tone ID so we can set the tones for each target type or VDI number. Sort of like on the V3. I also like to be able to toggle between two seperate setups, kind of like on the Garrett 1350 and the Etrac but a little more cusomizable For each screen.

 

[tmanly]

After trying some of the European units, I would like to see a volume control for each tone. then you could reduce the volume on the iron, but still know it is there. 3 tones each with its own volume control.
This would also be an alternative to discrimination which reduces depth. You could run all metal and just reduce the volume to 0 on the iron. And a volume boost that can be easily turned off to test the signal for depth.

A feature to ignore targets that are 2" or less.

Large display

Quick boost button. this will drain batteries if used constant, so a pushbutton that will increase coil output for fringe target checks.

Tom in SC

 

[TheGeorgiaCanuck]

What about a built in ultrasound pad on the bottom of the coil. Find the target, set your coil directly over it flat on the ground. Then trigger the ultrasonic sensor and the detector reads the shape of the object on a LCD readout. Wouldn't have to be too sharp a resolution, just enough to see the shape.

 

[Mike Hillis]

The polar plot is a neat feature. Really helps with the identification of flat steel.
HH
Mike

 

[Mike Hillis]

Bill, I agree, user selectable/adjustable tone id is a great, very useful feature. I want to hear everything but I want the ability to set up audio "flags" to tell me when I'm over something that might be what I'm expressly looking for.

I'll give a couple of examples.

To repeat the Golden MicroMax feature I've already mentioned before....the new gold tone is a middle high tone that I can move anywhere within the aluminum conductive range. It stands out from the other tones. If I'm hunting mens rings, I move that tone to where the gold tone hits on tabs, with transition tone on nickels and screwcaps. If I'm hunting womens rings, I set the tone so that it hits on the middle/high foil area, which can include nickel but not tabs. When I'm hunting chains I set it so that it sounds on low foil with a transition tone down into the iron range. This adjustable tone ranging allows me to hunt with no discrimination and flags me when I'm over a specific conductive range I want to investigate.

The V3i goes even better, though more involved in setup, because it can be totally customized, not only by tone, but with icons and colors for the ranges. I can customize either by categories or by VDI number with audio, icon, and color. Excellent feature set, but very pricey.

The DFX using Mix Mode also gives this audio flagging ability. You adjust the frequency of the tone to one that will work for your audio flag. Then you accept everything, nothing discriminated out. Then you reject the VDI numbers (or range) for the conductive range you want the audio flag to alert you to. This gives you full tone id for all objects including iron, an audio flag for the conductive range(s) you want to focus on, and it allows you to adjust the sensitivity that you put into your focused "flagged" range of targets. You use the DC sensitivity settings for your flagged targets and the AC sensitivity for everything else. I'm buying another DFX just because I can do this "Audio Flagging" with it at an affordable price.

While I like the full customization of the V3i, the price is moving beyond what I want to spend. I'd like to see "Audio Flagging" kept at a more affordable price range.

HH
Mike

 

[Mike Hillis]

Steve,
Mass equates to signal intensity and intensity is defined by too many variables. Metal detectors like round objects better than others because the eddy currents flow better in round objects, and go deeper (skin effect) which allows a more intense response, and some detectors let you hear this roundness better than others, just as bfodness stated. So a wedding band or a coin or a bottle cap will sound good, more intense, while a cross or open earring will not. Metal detectors also like big targets. For the most part, intensity is a depth gauge and then only good on calibrated targets.

The multi frequency machines that hit the object with different frequencies and then interpret the phase shift responses into ferrous,non-ferrous content could be used for more information, perhaps? Perhaps they could compare "intensity" readings and pull additional data that could be added to a visual symbol? I don't know.

HH
Mike

 

[Mike Hillis]

Would pulse induction used for pinpointing give any additional information that we don't already get? You locate the target, pinpoint it with the regular no-motion all metal vlf feature, then hit it with with a PI train at different time settings and read those for additional info? I dunno, I'm mostly pulse illerate, though I understand the concept.

?

HH
Mike