New discussuon

[amberjack]

Name

Gold

Atomic Mass 196.967 atomic mass units
Number of Protons 79
Number of Neutrons 118
Number of Electrons 79


Name

Aluminium

Atomic Mass 26.982 atomic mass units
Number of Protons 13
Number of Neutrons 14
Number of Electrons 13



just Google info, these 2 metals are nothing alike.

AJ

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Mike, thanx for answering my questions and continuing the conversation. To address what you're saying here:

" .... No...notching, as in notch reject, implies that you are setting up your detector to 'not' respond to a TID range or phase response. Notching, as in notch accept, implies that you are setting up your machine to only respond to a particular TID range or phase response. I am doing neither. I am not notching out or in anything. I am only looking at the electrical characteristic phase response of a target on a high resolution, multifrequency graph. ... "

And as I indicated: I understand if you're not programming the machine to "go silent" on said tabs. You are the one who is using your own eyes and ears to determine "tab" versus "non-tab". Right ? And as such, you might elect to pass said tabs, to increase your odds of getting gold rings, versus those signals which we both agree have 99% certainty being the hated tabs, right ?

Thus IN THE END, you are coming to the same result: You have passed something you didn't want , because, odds are, it's a tab. So whether or not you've got a machine programmed to do that for you, versus passing it via what you see on the screen, the end result is the same: You've "notched" something out. That's all I'm saying.


" .... I am saying that the V3 can allow you to visually discriminate by 'density' in the low conductive foil range...."

And do you feel this allows you to tell the difference between dainty low-conductor gold rings, versus low conductive foil ?

Also: How about can shrapnel ? Or larger thumb sized wads of foil ? Do you think your V3 can discern gold vs aluminum on those ?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

... just Google info, these 2 metals are nothing alike....

No one's saying that the two metals "are alike". Of course they're not alike. One is worthless and common, while the other is rare and valuable.

But what your post fails to address: While you can show their compositions to be different metallic scientific makeup, yet that still doesn't mean they won't have the same exact conductive reading on the TID scale.

Example 4 + 4 = 8 . Right ?

And also 2 + 6 ALSO = 8. Right ?

No one is going to try to say that the # 4 being claimed to be the same as a # 2 or # 6. Yet both combinations of numbers NET in the same result. Even though their components are DIS-SIMILAR.

In the same way: Various alloyed metals share the same conductivities, while having NON-SIMILAR component ingredients.

 

[amberjack]

I understand what you are both saying, I am saying I have dug for 50 hrs with no gold and that's dig everything in spots I have found gold before, I am pretty patient and I use Tesoro's , or id machines and after 50hrs.

well ......

I remember why I go detecting to get outside get some air move around get some exercise what I find is a bonus, and maybe I have a stinker coming my way who knows but as a gold park hunter if I focus on what I find I wont be a park gold hunter for long

it sure can be an exercise in will and or stupidly which ever comes 1st but I love it just the same.

AJ

 

[Mike Hillis]

Tom
The only downside to the V3 and hunting gold hiding amidst the low conductor trash is that you have to examine every signal and look at how each frequency responds and put the information together. Its like hunting in all metal. I can't get it to just respond to the perfect gold target signals. Or at least I haven't found it yet.

HH
Mike

 

[Tom_in_CA]

....The only downside to the V3 and hunting gold hiding amidst the low conductor trash is that you have to examine every signal and look at how each frequency responds and put the information together. Its like hunting in all metal. I can't get it to just respond to the perfect gold target signals. Or at least I haven't found it yet. .....

Mike, do you know of ANY V3 hunters who have been able to master the V3, to allow them to tell gold versus aluminum ? Were you trying to say that some folks have been able to get the V3 to be able to tell , based on the "frequency responses", etc.... ? Do you know any of these individuals ?

If so, try this: Invite them down to the nearest inner city blighted park. Turn them loose. See how many gold targets they find, versus aluminum. And this is not asking for 100% mind you. The average md'r would LOVE to have even a 50 to 1 ratio of aluminum to gold. But alas, I think you'll find that this V3 user will end up with no better odds than any other machine. They will probably quickly abandon their claims.

But if I'm wrong, and you know of someone who's figured out a way to tell aluminum from gold, please let us know more.

 

[Mike Hillis]

Tom, I'd much rather let you continue to say its impossible.

HH
Mike

 

[Mike Hillis]

I tried to edit my post above with this but it timed out.

Tom,
I think there is a basic difference between coin hunters and jewelry hunters that cause us to look at trash recovery differently. Our metrics are different. Jewelry items, large and small are being lost all the time. There are actually identifiable hot spots where this occurs. Jewelry hunters identify and hunt these hot spots. Not just once, but on repeated visits. We are not so much ‘hunters’ as we are ‘harvesters’. So our metrics are different. Productive sites, those hot spots, are more important to us than the jewelry find itself. We know the jewelry will be in our pouch if we hit enough productive sites during our hunt time. Our metric is efficiency. How many productive sites can I cover during my hunt time.

A productive basketball court surrounded by trashed out turf might take several weeks to isolate and examine every signal, recover only the sure fire jewelry signals and walk away with several nice pieces. However, when I come back a couple of months later to ‘harvest’ the new losses, guess what? All that trash I left behind from the first trip is still in the ground, which means that I have to spend the same amount of time there this trip as I did the last trip in order to find the good targets. So to improve the efficiency of future trips, the early trips REQUIRE that I dig the trash targets. I dig the pull tab because it IS a pull tab. I dig the can slaw because it IS canslaw. Its not because I can’t tell the difference. It is because I can. The more trash I remove from a productive site ensures that my efficiency in hunting the site next trip goes up.

Having a metal detector that does a great job of telling gold from trash (which the V3 does) isn’t the key to success. Just taking the V3 to a inner city blighted park and spending a month there analyzing signals looking for a gold signal isn’t a success metric. The success metric would be identifying a productive hot spot there, if one exists, and cleaning the trash out of it so that the future harvesting trips could be done in the minimum amount of time.

The measure of success isn't the trash to treasure ratio, its the number of sites per hunt session I can fit in. It is not uncommon to find gold every trip out, though lately I have been finding more gold plated silver.

HH
Mike

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... . I dig the pull tab because it IS a pull tab. I dig the can slaw because it IS canslaw. Its not because I can’t tell the difference. It is because I can.....

Mike, thanx for typing out that answer. So when all-is-said-and-done, you are saying that you can tell the difference between a gold ring, and various aluminum junk items. Right ?

So if you eventually passed your coil over an item, and studied all the V3 info, you could say with xx% certainty "this one is xx% certain to be gold and not aluminum", Right ?

I have run into a person who made these claims here in CA. But when it came right down to it, when I said "let's meet up and show me", he could not. And he had others convinced it was a learn-able talent. Yet none of them ever could either. So I have yet to see anyone that can actually go to a field of tabs, foil, and can-slaw, and do better than random guessing on aluminum vs gold.

 

[Stoof-tabsallday]

Removed. Started new thread.

 

[Mike Hillis]

Sorry....took a 5 day weekend and went fishing for Rainbow trout.

You have convinced me to write a little booklet on the subject, Tom.
The V3 and gold, not trout.

HH
Mike

 

[REVIER]

Sorry....took a 5 day weekend and went fishing for Rainbow trout.

You have convinced me to write a little booklet on the subject, Tom.
The V3 and gold, not trout.

HH
Mike

Hmmm...I don't run with a V3 but that trout tip booklet I can get behind.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

So to be the "devil's advocate" here:

There's a certain all-girls parochial high school in my city. It's where all the affluent folks send their kids too (eg.: doctors and lawyer's kids, etc....). It only dates to the mid 1960s, so no one's ever hunted it for old coins. I figured that these "upper crust" girls probably might wear some nice jewelry. So I sampled the athletic field , and found it to be loaded with targets. But the moment I started strip-mining all the low conductors, to try to angle for gold jewelry, I was immediately bombarded by lots of aluminum junk

Because the girls eat their lunches on the grass too. Hence foil wads, tabs, etc... And then cans tangle with lawn mowers. Hence can slaw. After about 30 aluminum items, I called it quits. I simply could not turn the lawn into a battle zone, lest I get kicked out d/t too many holes. This is simply a case of where going to beach is a much better option, if gold jewelry is my agenda.

Thus seeing as how this environment was virgin, in-so-far as anyone ever harvesting the low conductors:

Do you really think you could go around and study various targets, and have anything better than the type odds I was getting with a "dig all" method ? If so, what do you think your ratios of getting fooled would be ? 1 gold in 5 dug targets ? 1 gold in 10 dug targets? 1 in 20 ? etc...

 

[REVIER]

In this scenario I would love a shot.
I would never dig it all, I would not turn it into a battle zone, and I still think I would have a good chance of finding gold...maybe not great but good if it is there.
I would do the same thing I have been doing for years using my Fishers, go after only the solid, repeatable, most stable targets in the gold zone and avoid digging 80-85% of that trash that you seem to think is the only way to find jewelry in sites like this.
It's not.
I live in and for places exactly like what you describe, I studied gold and how it behaves and specifically how it behaves in relation to my detectors and I have found 3 dozen pieces of gold without digging it all, destroying a site or exhausting myself which seems to be the only way you seem to think it must be done.
Taking your advice of doing it the easy way of hunting for gold isnt possible because I don't live anywhere near sites with water so I had to figure out better ways and for me I did.
Been pretty darn successful at it to and also had a ball doing it.
I have much more patience than you, I don't really care if I don't find it all because this way I might not but I would still have a decent chance of finding some if it is there.
Don't believe me...I don't really care because with all your scientific data, writing down all target numbers and crunching percentage data which you have done in the past to deem if a site is worthy of your effort to hunt it is ridiculous and always has been along with your oh so sage advice to anyone within earshot that nobody should even attempt to look for gold in sites like this which you have been spewing for years.
You seem to think that the way you approach this hobby is right and anyone that thinks differently is wrong which is a joke.
Wrong for you maybe, for others of us the challenge of wading into a challenging site like this and NOT digging it all but still somehow managing to find that rare metal is just a big part of what this hobby is all about.
Not for you of course as you have so eloquently proved in so many posts like this for so long and will fight others to the death to prove your point.
There are many ways to do this hobby, many ways to enjoy it, many different kinds of sites to have fun doing it in and more than one way to find great treasure without digging it all which is something you don't believe and will never understand.
You need to stick to your worthy dirt sites to find coins and hang around the water to find gold because this is evidently the only way you can enjoy yourself in this hobby.
The rest of us blissfully ignorant simpletons will simply ignore your ramblings and advice, hunt trash and aluminum infested sites anyway that you always advise to avoid like the plague and somehow muddle through and try to have fun...something I personally have been doing for years.
Even more fun when I look at all the silver, gold and old coinsI have found doing it this way and I am more than well rested because I miraculously have avoided digging more than 80% of that trash...which I am sure you won't/can't believe.
You think strip mining a site like this is the only way to go to be successful and have fun in this hobby or not have fun in your case doing it....yea, it's not, but nobody has ever been able to convince you of this fact and I can see nobody ever will.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... I have found 3 dozen pieces of gold without digging it all,.....

And what was the ratio of gold vs aluminum in that time frame ?

At the site I speak of: A lot of aluminum I dug locked on nicely. Repeatable, stable, etc... Tight packed larger foil wads, can-slaw, tabs, etc.... Can all give the type signal you describe

And to the extent that some elongated out-of-round aluminum junk might give "bi-tone" (multi-tone and differing from different directions), yet SO TOO do I suspect that out-of-round gold items (and rings with crowns not-lying-flat, etc....) would ALSO not "lock on". And weird shaped things like stick-pins , elongated bracelets, etc... can mimic the sound of turd-shaped aluminum objects.

So please do tell: What is your ratio of aluminum to those dozen gold items you've dug in turf ??

 

[Mike Hillis]

Tom,
Give a me a good arial view and lets see if there are any hot spots that can be identified.
HH
Mike

 

[amberjack]

I have 1/2 hr on the DFX so I am an expert right what I did notice was the tabs were choppy numbers all over the shop, of cause I didn't and haven't yet tested the machine on gold could be the same but I will test and see how they sound numbers they give off etc..


AJ

 

[REVIER]

.... I have found 3 dozen pieces of gold without digging it all,.....

And what was the ratio of gold vs aluminum in that time frame ?

At the site I speak of: A lot of aluminum I dug locked on nicely. Repeatable, stable, etc... Tight packed larger foil wads, can-slaw, tabs, etc.... Can all give the type signal you describe

And to the extent that some elongated out-of-round aluminum junk might give "bi-tone" (multi-tone and differing from different directions), yet SO TOO do I suspect that out-of-round gold items (and rings with crowns not-lying-flat, etc....) would ALSO not "lock on". And weird shaped things like stick-pins , elongated bracelets, etc... can mimic the sound of turd-shaped aluminum objects.

So please do tell: What is your ratio of aluminum to those dozen gold items you've dug in turf ??

Why thank you for asking...considering I avoid digging 80-85% of all tabs, can slaw and other aluminum I come across not very much at all.
Exactly the right amount as a matter of fact.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

...Exactly the right amount as a matter of fact.

This does not make sense . Are you saying you dig zero aluminum and all gold ? If not, can you please clarify ? Can you venture a percentage ??

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Mike, this makes no sense. If I show you or anyone an aerial view , how does that help identify "hot spots" ? So are you saying that not only can you ID gold vs aluminum, but you can deduce , from nothing more than a photograph, the "hot spots" ?

If you mean , as in, places where persons set down their jewelry for "safekeeping" while they play sports (near goal posts, etc.....) then this is totally outside the question of whether-or-not gold an be differentiated from aluminum, on a signal-per-signal basis.

And I'm still awaiting an answer from you as to percentages (even if only guesstimates) as to ratios of aluminum per gold. Curiously ... you have avoided the question. So too was the eventual answer from the dealer here in CA, who claimed there "was a difference". His claims went silent went tasked with going to a junky park, and .... putting it to any sort of test.