jackintexas
New member
Gold rings VS pull tabs. What are your opinions>.....Jack
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New discussuon
- Thread starter jackintexas
- Start date
jackintexas said:
What do you mean ? Are you asking us which we prefer ? Ok, I prefer gold rings, haha
Or are you asking if we can discern a difference via tones, sounds, TID's on the cross-hairs or graphs, etc... ?
If you meant the latter, here's how you put an immediate stop to that: Find theperson who claims there is a difference between tabs (or aluminum, etc..) and gold rings. Take them to the nearest inner city urban blighted park. Turn them loose. See how many gold rings they find, while leaving aluminum behind.
I believe you will find they stop making their claims.
Larry (IL)
Well-known member
I would rather dig gold rings......
still looking 52
Well-known member
That's why I don't hunt gold rings that much, they fall into the pull tab area and I don't have that much patience to pull 1000 tabs to get one gold ring(maybe).
REVIER
Well-known member
still looking 52 said:
Maybe not 1000, but a few for sure if you are a gold hunter.
I usually dig only the solid signals since all gold for me so far has come in shallow and pretty solid...as I said so far, that could change.
Many tabs come in solid too but most jumpy tab signals I quit digging long ago but still find tab area gold from time to time
As far as tab gold those would be pretty large rings, usually, I have found 6X's more gold in foil and nickel areas than in tabs...the most in foil overall.
Still dig some foil and other trash like can slaw but again I avoid digging the really jumpy stuff which comprises about 80% of what I come across.
If I miss something good because I don't dig every signal I come across I am fine with that.
I seem to find more than my share of precious metals in the dirt so I don't worry about that stuff and there is always another hunt, another day.
jackintexas
New member
Any known way to tell the difference?
Larry (IL)
Well-known member
jackintexas said:
Dig them up and look at them.
There are a lot of little tricks depending on what detector you are using, where you are hunting and how well you know you detector to give you better odds but no, there is no foolproof way to only dig gold. If there was, we all would say to heck with clad and silver, I only want to find gold and platinum.
Jack, as I said below, if anyone claims they have a machine or a method (like trying to say that there is differences in sounds or tones), you can shut them up very quickly: Just take them out to the nearest inner city blighted park, and turn them loose. See how much gold they find, and what percent of aluminum they leave behind
But the "key to finding gold rings":
a) Is NOT whether or not there's a discernible difference between aluminum and alloyed gold jewelry (because there isn't),
b) Is NOT a function of "dig 1000 aluminum items lest you miss a gold ring"
The key to finding gold rings is SIMPLY WHERE YOU HUNT. If gold rings are your agenda, then what he heck are you doing in junky turf in the first place ? Go to swimming beaches instead. Your ratios will vastly improve. And let's face it: digging in sand is easier
But the "key to finding gold rings":
a) Is NOT whether or not there's a discernible difference between aluminum and alloyed gold jewelry (because there isn't),
b) Is NOT a function of "dig 1000 aluminum items lest you miss a gold ring"
The key to finding gold rings is SIMPLY WHERE YOU HUNT. If gold rings are your agenda, then what he heck are you doing in junky turf in the first place ? Go to swimming beaches instead. Your ratios will vastly improve. And let's face it: digging in sand is easier
jackintexas
New member
With that I agree.....Jack
Funny you should bring that up. About once a week I hunt a park that was the picnic area of a city swimming pool. It has been pounded very, very hard. I'm not finding any coins at all but what keeps me coming back is that I keep finding the rings of beaver tail pull tabs. That tells me that whoever hunted here before was not looking for gold and so they were ignoring these pull tabs. I'm convinced that one day, I'm going to pull a ring out of there. So, yeah, I do like beaver tails.
Yes, tons of turfed areas were cherry-picked for their coins over many many decades. Ever since discrimination came into being by the mid and late '70s, md'rs rushed to "avoid tabs".
I started in the all-metal TR days, when you could not tell highs vs lows (you could only pass iron). But soon the TR disc. guys were "kicking our B*tts" with their disc. They would quintuple our coin and silver counts. Doh! So, yes, even though you'd miss gold, the tallies at the end of the day didn't lie, when it came to coins . Don't forget: Some silver coins are valuable too. And silver about that time (1980-ish) was 15 to 20x face, so the allure was too much.
The reason I bring this up, is that from the perspective of starting back when there was no ability to tell highs versus lows: We really didn't get THAT many gold rings in the school yards or parks. At least not as a ratio to foil wads and pull tabs. Oh sure, a gold ring now and then. But at a ratio of perhaps 100's to 1, when compared to aluminum.
So you can see why the mentality evolved in some of our minds, that "If gold rings are our goal, then we'd merely go to a beach. Rather than rack our brains digging aluminum till your arms fall off , lest you miss a gold ring".
I started in the all-metal TR days, when you could not tell highs vs lows (you could only pass iron). But soon the TR disc. guys were "kicking our B*tts" with their disc. They would quintuple our coin and silver counts. Doh! So, yes, even though you'd miss gold, the tallies at the end of the day didn't lie, when it came to coins . Don't forget: Some silver coins are valuable too. And silver about that time (1980-ish) was 15 to 20x face, so the allure was too much.
The reason I bring this up, is that from the perspective of starting back when there was no ability to tell highs versus lows: We really didn't get THAT many gold rings in the school yards or parks. At least not as a ratio to foil wads and pull tabs. Oh sure, a gold ring now and then. But at a ratio of perhaps 100's to 1, when compared to aluminum.
So you can see why the mentality evolved in some of our minds, that "If gold rings are our goal, then we'd merely go to a beach. Rather than rack our brains digging aluminum till your arms fall off , lest you miss a gold ring".
Mike Hillis
Well-known member
On the V3 with the Signagraph resolution set to 1, and the Signagraph threshold at zero....the middle freq has enough resolution to show the missing or highly shortened bars from the missing VDI numbers associated with pulltab responses. The ring doesn't have the missing data.
For what its worth.
HH
Mike
For what its worth.
HH
Mike
Mike Hillis said:
Mike, you're talking about just "notching" out one item: a round tab. Right ? If so, this was known as "ring enhancement" programs back when TID first came out in the 1980s. You can certainly notch out commonly recurring items, that have specific TID (like a round tab.
HOWEVER: Rest assured there's some gold rings with that exact signature that you will miss. And there's tons of other types of aluminum junk that does not read @ the TID of round tabs. Like tabs that are mangled, or bent, etc... foil wads, aluminum can shrapnel, etc....
Mike Hillis
Well-known member
Hi Tom,
No, no notching. I am referring to visual discrimination.
On a regular TID unit, you swing over a tab and get a 34, you swing back and get a 33, and the next swing might give a 36. A 35 might rarely occur. You get TID variances as you sweep over the target a few times. We get to where we process this variance in our heads. Some of us probably talk out loud as we process the variances in TID numbers from multiple sweeps (ok...I do sometimes anyway Ha! )
Well, the V3 can show you this variance in graph form. Normalized, the high frequency hits on tabs hard and you often get a good strong single bar or even a couple of bars but they are side by side, no missing numbers. But the middle frequency allows more discrimination and you see that normal TID variation in graph form. You see the strong 33, 34 and 36 numbers as high and strong signagraph bars and you'll see the missing 35 number. That clues you in to the characteristics of the target. Modern round and square tabs exhibit that characteristic. Normally rings will not show this variation. That lack of variation we describe as a 'lock on'.
On foil range targets, the low frequency performs a mass check for you. Light foil will hit hard at both high and middle range frequencies but will smear the low frequency signagraph with small intensity bars. As the aluminum mass increases the low frequency bars start to condense into less smearing, but as that happens the TID variances in the middle frequency start coming into play and start describing the electrical properties.
The V3 spectragraph is wonderful. I used to turn multigraph off and just focus on the single signagraph response but I've learned that the spectragraph is the better tool.
HH
Mike
No, no notching. I am referring to visual discrimination.
On a regular TID unit, you swing over a tab and get a 34, you swing back and get a 33, and the next swing might give a 36. A 35 might rarely occur. You get TID variances as you sweep over the target a few times. We get to where we process this variance in our heads. Some of us probably talk out loud as we process the variances in TID numbers from multiple sweeps (ok...I do sometimes anyway Ha! )
Well, the V3 can show you this variance in graph form. Normalized, the high frequency hits on tabs hard and you often get a good strong single bar or even a couple of bars but they are side by side, no missing numbers. But the middle frequency allows more discrimination and you see that normal TID variation in graph form. You see the strong 33, 34 and 36 numbers as high and strong signagraph bars and you'll see the missing 35 number. That clues you in to the characteristics of the target. Modern round and square tabs exhibit that characteristic. Normally rings will not show this variation. That lack of variation we describe as a 'lock on'.
On foil range targets, the low frequency performs a mass check for you. Light foil will hit hard at both high and middle range frequencies but will smear the low frequency signagraph with small intensity bars. As the aluminum mass increases the low frequency bars start to condense into less smearing, but as that happens the TID variances in the middle frequency start coming into play and start describing the electrical properties.
The V3 spectragraph is wonderful. I used to turn multigraph off and just focus on the single signagraph response but I've learned that the spectragraph is the better tool.
HH
Mike
Mike, replies to what you're saying:
"No, no notching. I am referring to visual discrimination....."
Huh ? I think this is just semantics. Ok, call it "visual discrimination" if you like. But ask yourself: What is your goal ? To NOTCH out something that perhaps you're going to do the Las Vegas odds of skipping. Hence "notching" something out. The means to which you do it, and what you call it, are called different things. But the end result of the md'r is the same : To ID and possibly pass junk-of-a-recurring nature. Ie.: round and square tabs which are, yes: pretty consistently shaped . Assuming not bent up, assuming the most common size and soda brands, etc....
"....Well, the V3 can show you this variance in graph form. Normalized, the high frequency hits on tabs hard and you often get a good strong single bar or even a couple of bars but they are side by side, no missing numbers. But the middle frequency allows more discrimination and you see that normal TID variation in graph form. You see the strong 33, 34 and 36 numbers as high and strong signagraph bars and you'll see the missing 35 number. That clues you in to the characteristics of the target. Modern round and square tabs exhibit that characteristic. Normally rings will not show this variation..... "
I grant you that machines like the V3 and XLT, Explorer, etc.... have come a LONG ways in adding more TID info to the items. In the old days (6000 di pro, the early Tek's, the Eagle, etc...) it was just a needle or one-dimensional scale. Yet now we have 2 axis, graphs, etc... They are still all using conductivity as their item being measured. But yes: Some are more expansive than others. And I have no doubt that you can tell the same brand of soda tab (assuming not chopped or bent) with nearly 100% accuracy. And I grant you that the odds of a gold ring having that *exact same* TID signature is slim (but not impossible).
But this is still all defined as notching. Instead of commanding the machine to "go silent" on objects you don't want, you are simply using your eyes looking at the graph. Same exact outcome, if/when you elect to pass or dig certain objects.
" ....On foil range targets, the low frequency performs a mass check for you. Light foil will hit hard at both high and middle range frequencies but will smear the low frequency signagraph with small intensity bars. As the aluminum mass increases the low frequency bars start to condense into less smearing, but as that happens the TID variances in the middle frequency start coming into play and start describing the electrical properties.
The V3 spectragraph is wonderful. I used to turn multigraph off and just focus on the single signagraph response but I've learned that the spectragraph is the better tool..... "
Ok, but what does this have to do with ID'ing gold rings versus aluminum ? Are you saying that you can differentiate foil wads (and/or can shrapnel) versus gold rings too ?
"No, no notching. I am referring to visual discrimination....."
Huh ? I think this is just semantics. Ok, call it "visual discrimination" if you like. But ask yourself: What is your goal ? To NOTCH out something that perhaps you're going to do the Las Vegas odds of skipping. Hence "notching" something out. The means to which you do it, and what you call it, are called different things. But the end result of the md'r is the same : To ID and possibly pass junk-of-a-recurring nature. Ie.: round and square tabs which are, yes: pretty consistently shaped . Assuming not bent up, assuming the most common size and soda brands, etc....
"....Well, the V3 can show you this variance in graph form. Normalized, the high frequency hits on tabs hard and you often get a good strong single bar or even a couple of bars but they are side by side, no missing numbers. But the middle frequency allows more discrimination and you see that normal TID variation in graph form. You see the strong 33, 34 and 36 numbers as high and strong signagraph bars and you'll see the missing 35 number. That clues you in to the characteristics of the target. Modern round and square tabs exhibit that characteristic. Normally rings will not show this variation..... "
I grant you that machines like the V3 and XLT, Explorer, etc.... have come a LONG ways in adding more TID info to the items. In the old days (6000 di pro, the early Tek's, the Eagle, etc...) it was just a needle or one-dimensional scale. Yet now we have 2 axis, graphs, etc... They are still all using conductivity as their item being measured. But yes: Some are more expansive than others. And I have no doubt that you can tell the same brand of soda tab (assuming not chopped or bent) with nearly 100% accuracy. And I grant you that the odds of a gold ring having that *exact same* TID signature is slim (but not impossible).
But this is still all defined as notching. Instead of commanding the machine to "go silent" on objects you don't want, you are simply using your eyes looking at the graph. Same exact outcome, if/when you elect to pass or dig certain objects.
" ....On foil range targets, the low frequency performs a mass check for you. Light foil will hit hard at both high and middle range frequencies but will smear the low frequency signagraph with small intensity bars. As the aluminum mass increases the low frequency bars start to condense into less smearing, but as that happens the TID variances in the middle frequency start coming into play and start describing the electrical properties.
The V3 spectragraph is wonderful. I used to turn multigraph off and just focus on the single signagraph response but I've learned that the spectragraph is the better tool..... "
Ok, but what does this have to do with ID'ing gold rings versus aluminum ? Are you saying that you can differentiate foil wads (and/or can shrapnel) versus gold rings too ?
Mike Hillis
Well-known member
Tom.
No...notching, as in notch reject, implies that you are setting up your detector to 'not' respond to a TID range or phase response. Notching, as in notch accept, implies that you are setting up your machine to only respond to a particular TID range or phase response. I am doing neither. I am not notching out or in anything. I am only looking at the electrical characteristic phase response of a target on a high resolution, multifrequency graph.
"Ok, but what does this have to do with ID'ing gold rings versus aluminum ? Are you saying that you can differentiate foil wads versus small gold rings too ?
I am saying that the V3 can allow you to visually discriminate by 'density' in the low conductive foil range.
HH
Mike
No...notching, as in notch reject, implies that you are setting up your detector to 'not' respond to a TID range or phase response. Notching, as in notch accept, implies that you are setting up your machine to only respond to a particular TID range or phase response. I am doing neither. I am not notching out or in anything. I am only looking at the electrical characteristic phase response of a target on a high resolution, multifrequency graph.
"Ok, but what does this have to do with ID'ing gold rings versus aluminum ? Are you saying that you can differentiate foil wads versus small gold rings too ?
I am saying that the V3 can allow you to visually discriminate by 'density' in the low conductive foil range.
HH
Mike